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Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by Nextgrid on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:27PM (#26987573)
Big Sur has been a significant drop in quality, even worse than Catalina. Some are bugs such as this one and some are just deliberately stupid design decisions like the changes to the notifications. I’m worried for the future of the Mac.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by Ericson2314 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:45PM (#26987727)
As Linux laptop user, I'm bemused when the competition gets worse.

Maybe Linux on Apple Silicon will be the best of both worlds in a few years --- I think the dedicated porting effort will more than succeed and will get something more polished than Linux on Intel macs ever was.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by rubicks on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:22PM (#26988092)
I don't share your optimism. If proprietary firmware and dkms blobs remain _de rigueur_, I can't see the situation on linux improving w.r.t. things like graphics cards and wifi chips.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by marcan_42 on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:36AM (#26989855)
WiFi is literally the only blob Linux will have to deal with as far as we can tell, and I'll make sure our installer pulls it from the system firmware partition (which will always exist on a functional Mac) so nobody will have to worry about it. All the other blobs are loaded by system firmware before Linux even gets to run, so they might as well be invisible to us (UEFI on PCs does much the same thing).

No DKMS, ever. All our drivers are headed to mainline. I'm not even going to bother with DKMS most likely; people who want to use bleeding edge drivers before they're merged can use our kernel trees (and we'll have builds available for those folks).

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by Ericson2314 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:28PM (#26988548)
I wouldn't call it optimism per se, not in absolute terms at least. That will certainly continue to be a problem. But Apple messing up their own software either by accident or on purpose is a nice boon. And a single piece of consumer hardware being so good that that their a patreon for it is also interesting and good.

For the reasons you say, I personally would rather buy e.g. some pine64 thing just might benefit from this porting work. (Probably more in the userland than kernel itself, tbh.)

The one good path I see for hardware is that in the system on chip era, open designs can gain a foothold by saving the companies money, just as no one could compete with free linux for server software 2 decades prior. There was no hope getting a foothold with 1 design = 1 chip, but a world where people can mooch some free IP for their dohicky might do the trick.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by pabs3 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:16PM (#26989205)
Progress on the Apple GPU is already at the "can draw cubes" stage:

https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-3.html

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by pabs3 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:17PM (#26989212)
All the Asahi Linux support for Apple M1 is going into Linux mainline, so the dkms modules will not be necessary for the parts they work on.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by cptskippy on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:23PM (#26988891)
Still no where near as bad a Linux on the laptop the last time I tried it. I haven't used Linux on a laptop in a decade because it was so bad I swore it off.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by toinetoine on Thursday April 29, 2021 @11:24PM (#26989565)
I was in the same boat until summer of 2020. Switched to ubuntu 20.04 w/ gnome desktop on my home laptop and haven't looked back.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by konart on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:19AM (#26990038)
I have Fedora 33-34 with gnome (initially with KDE as a I was a fan back in my Ubuntu\Arch days) and I only keep it to install updates from time to time to see if it is as usable for a general use as macOS.

Still nowhere near.

Perfect for coding though.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by jablan on Friday April 30, 2021 @03:43AM (#26990774)
"general use" => "my specific usage needs" please.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by j-james on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:52PM (#26989422)
A lot has changed in the last decade, particularly with TLP and now suspend / hibernate being set up by default on most distributions. You might give it a try again.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by kuresov on Thursday April 29, 2021 @11:30PM (#26989591)
10 years is a long time. I run Linux on a Carbon X1 and it's been great. I think it's about 4 years old now.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by Ballas on Friday April 30, 2021 @02:34AM (#26990422)
I have been using linux on a laptop for the past 5 years. The only issue I have is with Nvidia (which is a requirement in my case).
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by rurp on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:18AM (#26989782)
It worked in my case. The issues with Catalina and the mac hardware pushed me to switch to Linux for my personal dev machine a few years ago. The transition was tough at first but now I love that machine. It makes me wayyy happier than the MacBook I have to use at work.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by wil421 on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:37AM (#26992607)
How does Linux handle scaled displays? MacOS handles it best, Windows has issues and inconsistencies, and last time I checked Linux support was abysmal.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by ddek on Friday April 30, 2021 @09:49AM (#26993434)
I run MacOS almost entirely because multidpi running so seamlessly.

Windows support is kinda funny, it works fairly well normally but has all kinds of strange bugs. For example, if you switch in/out of full screen windows will just randomly move between displays. There are quite a few inconsistent scaling bugs.

I haven't played with xrandr multidpi, although I hear a lot of complaints about it. I've tried wayland, but I wasn't keen. I was very frustrated with sway (twm), which advertises itself as a drop in replacement for i3, but does many things differently. The fractional scaling on wayland can be blurry. There are still loads of bugs.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by kache_ on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:23PM (#26988097)
I use arch btw
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by Ericson2314 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:16PM (#26988455)
Somebody knows I'm a NixOS partisan :D
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by imwillofficial on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:16PM (#26989204)
Linux on desktop users shouldn’t be bemused until Linux desktop experience isn’t a pile of UX trash. Linux on the desktop is still so frustrating, ugly, and only marginally more useful over a Mac for extremely specific use cases, that I would rather use Windows + WSL2.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by aulin on Friday April 30, 2021 @05:37AM (#26991433)
Whenever I read these comments I really wonder what do you do with your desktop environment. I spend most of the time inside an app, mostly the browser, the terminal or the editor. As long as the desktop env doesn't get in the way it's good. The only annoyance I experience when I switch back and forth from GNOME to MacOS is really the different keyboard shortcuts and that I have to install an additional tool (Rectangle) to get basic window tiling on mac. I can even use Windows these days, as long as WSL is installed
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by hderms on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:30PM (#26989287)
I've become a wsl convert now as I can trust windows to deal with sleep/wakeup and wifi much better than linux. If macosx experiences a developer exodus I think it's likely many will follow suit. Especially with things like WSLg coming out
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by 1_player on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:32AM (#26990106)
These past 6 months with WSL2 are the most productive I've been since I've spent 2 years on the Apple ecosystem or 15 years on Linux.

I don't have to debug OS wide breakages or weird Wifi/BT issues or unstable GUIs and it's running Linux, not BSD on a weird kernel and file system with... interesting permissions and security settings.

And I can play games and use Docker at native speed.

YMMV.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by valuearb on Thursday April 29, 2021 @11:38PM (#26989625)
With the M2 MacBook Pros due in a couple months, it’s more likely Apple experiences an inflow of developers.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by knolax on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:42PM (#26989364)
> Linux desktop experience isn’t a pile of UX trash.

Desktop Linux is the only bearable desktop UX. Anyone who actually prefers the UX of desktop Windows is mentally deranged and should not be allowed to make user facing software.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by yakubin on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:02AM (#26992313)
> Anyone who actually prefers the UX of desktop Windows is mentally deranged

Think a bit about what you say.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by knolax on Saturday May 01, 2021 @09:59AM (#27006358)
I stand by my words.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by imwillofficial on Saturday May 01, 2021 @06:59PM (#27010683)
Standing by a demonstrably wrong statement is your right.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by imwillofficial on Friday April 30, 2021 @11:00AM (#26994312)
Hey, I make no promises as to my level of sanity. But yes, desktop Linux UX is trash. Trash being defined by incomprehensible design and inconsistent implementation of proper design lessons learned in the last 20 years.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by stock_toaster on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:35PM (#26987644)
Early versions of Catalina were also not great. (Heck, early versions of any major macos release tend to be relatively buggy!)

I think people tend to forget things like that, and only remember the later releases of an OS since that is the version they are likely switching off of it to the newer one.

I personally have found big sir no more buggy than most releases. Better than some[1], worse than others. About middling. Not bad for it including new hardware (m1)!

[1]: ye gods, remember how bad 10.10 was with discoveryd before they rolled back to mdnsresponder! yikes!

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by tolmasky on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:17PM (#26988046)
Later versions of Catalina remain not great. The problem is that each version of macOS compounds onto the next, since there's no time for the "tock" after the "tick" anymore. Sure, catastrophic bugs may get fixed, but some stuff just seems to degrade forever (I can't remember the last time drag and drop worked like I expected to... even on Apple apps). The OS usually launches around November, and By WWDC, we're already being told about macOS N + 1 and getting betas of that, so you basically get half a year of "bug fixes," before focus shifts to the next release. There's no "stable" period anymore.

Tiger through Lion had a 2-year release cycle. Ever since Mountain Lion, it's been a 1-year cycle. Further complicating this is that these have included unintuitively "ambitious" (or at least "labor intensive") changes. Big Sur was a UI redesign that touched the entire system. But let's not forget that Mojave was also a huge undertaking to get everything working with Dark Mode (both for Apple developers and third party developers). Meanwhile entire suites of apps get thrown out and the rewrites are used to dogfood Catalyst. It's just infinite churn. The core of the technology has taken on the properties of fashion. And that is just not a great recipe for stability.

I've personally chosen to try to approximate the missing "tock" cycle by upgrading to every other macOS. Clearly this is nowhere near the same benefit of Apple actually dedicating a full year and a half to a release, but at least I don't have to go through the (largely arbitrary) UI changes every year or so, and I have the "bugs I know" to deal with vs. the ones I don't yet know about.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by photojosh on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:41PM (#26988235)
I just moved on to Big Sur since I got an M1... the previous MBP was on High Sierra, so you can imagine my culture shock! Big Sur reminds me of nothing more than Windows XP, and that's not a compliment.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by philistine on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:20AM (#26990041)
I’ve taken a big liking to Big Sur. It is a graceful evolution of the UI that needs a lot more precision work (like Preferences, the menu bar shortcuts and Notifications) but it’s a solid base for the next couple of years.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by photojosh on Monday May 03, 2021 @08:12PM (#27032567)
I don't think it helps that I'm on a Windows machine for work these days, and it's only personal time I have to adjust.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by deergomoo on Friday April 30, 2021 @05:58AM (#26991555)
I really, really wish they'd ditch the yearly cycle for macOS. It's a mature operating system—older now than classic Mac OS was when OS X launched. It's not missing huge chunks of functionality like iOS, nor is it in lockstep with yearly hardware like the iPhone.

At this point all I do with my Mac is work. I would much rather it be rock solid and reliable than be crammed with new features and change for the sake of change every year. Most of the features that get added for iOS parity/compatibility could probably be delivered in point updates anyway.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by faitswulff on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:45PM (#26987735)
I have to wonder if all issues with Apple's software quality are due to Apple redirecting resources to gracefully handling the Apple silicon transfer.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by photojosh on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:44PM (#26988258)
The Apple Silicon transition is arguably something they have handled extremely well, with the only unknown being what the pro-level chip will be like. Hopefully it can all be over sooner rather than later and they can get back to work on general software quality.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by AlexandrB on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:49PM (#26987770)
macOS quality has been declining for years. It can't all be due to the M1 transition.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by S_A_P on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:18PM (#26988860)
You would think that with each release being so much worse than previous versions that eventually OSX would quit booting up and become nothing more than a proof of concept.

So much hyperbole in this thread. A solid subset of users declares that the sky is falling and this is the end for Apple. Rinse and repeat with each iteration. I am not saying there haven’t been missteps, but it ain’t all bad. My personal experience with Big Sur has largely been a non event and I have tons of boutique usb synthesizers audio interfaces and software. I use windows Mac and dabble in a few Linux distros. None are perfect but they’re all pretty good.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by Benjamin_Dobell on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:34AM (#26989848)
Does Big Sur let you loopback audio out yet, or are third-party extensions still required? Do Soundflower & BlackHole even work on M1?

The fact there hasn't been native loopback for so long is mind-boggling. I'm a Mac user and use BlackHole.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been on a call and someone with a Mac has gone to share screen and been confused as to why their audio isn't being shared. COVID/WFH has made this a regular occurrence.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by coldtea on Friday April 30, 2021 @05:59AM (#26991561)
>Does Big Sur let you loopback audio out yet, or are third-party extensions still required? Do Soundflower & BlackHole even work on M1?

How is that relevant to a discussion about worsening software quality? OS X never had native loopback.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by S_A_P on Friday April 30, 2021 @09:24AM (#26993115)
Agreed, this isnt a datapoint. And I have an app called Loopback by Rogue Amoeba that does this job very well. There are plenty of reasons that you could assume OSX doesnt include this natively. The biggest I can think of is if you can capture streaming audio at no quality loss then you kinda blow up some business models.

I dont hear any detailed descriptions of how the software quality has declined. What I generally see is bugs being reported which is then called evidence that apple software is bad. I think the UMN story has shown that all OS software is large, complex and bug ridden.

I personally dont love how OSX is becoming more of a walled garden, but I also think that given the fact that bad people exist to make sure we cant have anything nice its a reasonable reaction to try and make the OS more secure. The days of the OS is your playground are ending. I wish that werent true but there are crappy folks out there that want to steal your data, identity, scam you, commit computer crimes against you.

I will reiterate that I think Big Sur was probably the smoothest big release of MacOS Ive been through(since Tiger). Others may have different experiences, but I can only speak to mine.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by Benjamin_Dobell on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:17AM (#26991656)
Software quality is a moving target. iOS 2.0 was exceptional quality in 2008, if a competitor released something akin to iOS 2.0 now they'd be laughed at.

Additionally, the comment was in response to a comment about audio interfaces, so it's relevant on multiple accounts.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by faitswulff on Friday April 30, 2021 @05:34AM (#26991420)
Counterpoint: I don’t know or care what that feature is and I’ve never encountered anyone complaining about it.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by coldtea on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:02AM (#26991579)
It's basically sending your system audio to an audio channel (e.g. to an app). You could e.g. route a Skype call audio to record it.

Handy when you need it, not exactly a metric for OS quality to offer one.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by acdha on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:14PM (#26988841)
This is a popular trope but I’d really want to see some supporting data. It’s notoriously hard to correct for only hearing from people who found something they don’t like, people assuming their experience is universally shared, and for people to tend to forget old problems.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by fiddlerwoaroof on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:51PM (#26989059)
Anecdotally, I think Big Sur is better than either Mojave or Catalina: in my experience, it solves a lot of the bugs I was trying to avoid by sticking with High Sierra.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by coldtea on Friday April 30, 2021 @05:57AM (#26991547)
Any real data, except of anecdotal "had this or that problem"?

It seems to me macOS quality has been fine for years.

And I've used it since 10.2.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by Nextgrid on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:49PM (#26989049)
Catalina was a significant downgrade in quality and as far as I know the M1 wasn't a thing yet.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by BigBathtubLobby on Thursday April 29, 2021 @11:16PM (#26989537)
Big Sur made it worse. For probably the greater part of the last 6-7 years I've felt Windows performs better on equivalent hardware (even after Mac OS fresh installs). By Big Sur it's so bad the latest Intel MacBooks chug on it.

That said, the M1 changes things, IME. It's just sad it takes that much.

Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by mattkrause on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:02PM (#26989123)
I assumed dropping 32-bit support was part of the wind-up for the M1 transition but maybe not.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by imwillofficial on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:12PM (#26989181)
I disagree. As a 20 year Mac user, Catalina has waaay worse. Big Sur has been painless. So much so that we’ve rolled it out enterprise wide at [Giant Internet Company]
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by foobiekr on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:05AM (#26989735)
Mail and calendar notifications are both a huge mess in Big Sur and a major downgrade.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by imwillofficial on Saturday May 01, 2021 @07:03PM (#27010714)
I haven’t run into that, but I don’t use Calendar or Mail. What issues have you noticed?
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by dang on Thursday April 29, 2021 @11:43PM (#26989651)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26987508.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by philistine on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:12AM (#26990006)
With the two previous transitions, Apple went through all sorts of weird pains. This time is no different, but unfortunately they still have to release yearly and implement the macOS version of each new service.
Re:Wi-Fi packet capturing on M1 Macs is broken by CrLf on Friday April 30, 2021 @04:59AM (#26991215)
"Apple went through all sorts of weird pains"

Surely you mean Apple's customers went through all sorts of weird pains.