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Re:The health benefits of better air by Eric_WVGG on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @03:35AM (#26966760)
I think the particular bit about the subway may be informed by very recent news that the air pollution in the New York subway stations is far in excess of what anyone had inspected.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/10/subway-a...

As for actual subway workers… I mean it’s not exactly a coal mine, but I would be pretty surprised if their mortality wasn’t at least somewhat measurably lower than, say, that of shepherds.

Re:The health benefits of better air by ehnto on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @03:46AM (#26966808)
Just to point out how why this is a fairly nuanced topic, a shepherd may be breathing clean air but they're also exposed to UV radiation all day. They may have a higher morbidity due to increased skin cancer rates.
Re:The health benefits of better air by darkwater on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @04:16AM (#26966995)
I'm no way an expert on the matter but by pure logic it's still amazes me how we survived (and evolved!) as a species for thousand of years without almost no shelter from direct sunlight and yet now (too much) sunlight exposure is seen as a cause of death. I know we lost almost all the body hair we used to have but still, we usually wear clothes when under the sun.
Re:The health benefits of better air by yakubin on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @04:27AM (#26967054)
According to my naive knowledge:

1. We have more ozone holes now.

2. We weren't constantly in direct contact with sunlight. If you move past very early stages, we had shelter in forests, caves, tents, igloos.

3. When we were in direct contact with sunlight, we had a darker skin, which is more resilient to that.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Re:The health benefits of better air by onion2k on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @04:39AM (#26967127)
We have more ozone holes now.

The global ban on CFCs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol) is working, and although there are still big holes that open and close every year we're on the way to getting back to pre-1980 levels of holes by 2060. https://public.wmo.int/en/media/news/record-breaking-2020-oz...

Re:The health benefits of better air by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @04:56AM (#26967225)
Maybe, if China would curtail their CFC usage perhaps.

...A recently reported slowdown in the decline of the atmospheric concentration of CFC-11 after 2012, however, suggests that global emissions have increased...

We show that emissions from eastern mainland China are 7.0 ± 3.0 (±1 standard deviation) gigagrams per year higher in 2014–2017 than in 2008–2012, and that the increase in emissions arises primarily around the northeastern provinces of Shandong and Hebei. This increase accounts for a substantial fraction (at least 40 to 60 per cent) of the global rise in CFC-11 emissions.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1193-4

Still, the Montreal Protocol is a good example of what can be achieved when we finally reach an imminent crisis.

Re:The health benefits of better air by Gravityloss on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:10AM (#26967680)
That's from 2019, they have since reduced the leaks, this from 2021: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03277-w
Re:The health benefits of better air by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:37AM (#26967830)
Great news, thanks for the update.
Re:The health benefits of better air by CalRobert on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @05:02AM (#26967275)
Moving to the country and being outside for 8+ hours of the day finally made it clear that cowboy hats, sombreros, etc. don't have wide brims just for fashion.
Re:The health benefits of better air by gibspaulding on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:57AM (#26968787)
This was my thought. Traditional clothing for people who live and work outdoors in sunny climates generally does not feature a lot of exposed skin. I'm pretty sure that the "shorts and a t-shirt" summer wear is a fairly modern phenomenon.
Re:The health benefits of better air by notahacker on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @07:06AM (#26967993)
Nobody counting skin cancer deaths and saying "this is completely avoidable and dying at that age is abnormal" back then either...
Re:The health benefits of better air by steventharlow on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @05:44AM (#26967549)
Evolution (and survival) only cares about if you survive to reproduce. So human evolution (and survival) matters only until 14-40, and humans aren't dying of skin cancer at exceedingly large numbers at those ages.

If we pushed back the reproductive age we'd eventually evolve to live longer (though would have more people dying without reproducing first). This experiment has been successfully shown in fruit flies.

Re:The health benefits of better air by Denvercoder9 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:20AM (#26967740)
> So human evolution (and survival) matters only until 14-40

Not necessarily. I'd imagine it helps the survival chances of your grandchildren if you're around when they're growing up (though it probably mattered less back when children were raised by communities than in the nuclear families we have nowadays).

Re:The health benefits of better air by notahacker on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @07:16AM (#26968067)
Sure, it would have helped homo sapiens even more if more of their children had lived to childbearing ages (if, say, they'd discovered antibiotics a few millenia earlier or evolved more natural immunities). But the infant survival rates back then were enough to ensure the species survived, just like the smaller fraction of the population struck down by skin cancer every year wasn't enough to put evolutionary pressure on us to develop resistance to it or develop sunlight avoidance traits. Evolution doesn't guarantee that every possible beneficial adaptation takes place.
Re:The health benefits of better air by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:36AM (#26968626)
> I'd imagine it helps the survival chances of your grandchildren if you're around when they're growing up

Keeping toddlers from walking off a cliff (and the other things unsupervised toddlers will do to kill themselves) is probably why he said 14-40 and not 14-30.

Re:The health benefits of better air by yarcob on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @02:17PM (#26972369)
> human evolution (and survival) matters only until 14-40

I just don't think that's true. I think grand parents being around was important for human survival.

If it wasn't, if all that mattered was having the most kids, then why would women go through menopause? Wouldn't it be better if women continued having children until they die?

I think it makes sense that young people have kids (the sooner the better, faster evolution and less chance of DNA degradation)

Then they should live as long as possible to help raise their grandkids to ensure their genes survive.

Re:The health benefits of better air by ac29 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @09:21PM (#26976397)
> If it wasn't, if all that mattered was having the most kids, then why would women go through menopause? Wouldn't it be better if women continued having children until they die?

Given that the risk of birth defects goes up significantly the older a woman is, menopause is probably evolutionarily advantageous.

Re:The health benefits of better air by ehnto on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @05:57AM (#26967619)
I may be overly cautious given where I live has an 11+/Extreme UV rating all year round.

Though I do want to point out that clothing doesn't protect against UV as much as you might think, and a sunburn or lack thereof doesn't tell you all that much about your UV exposure for the day. You could have exceeded your healthy exposure for the day without getting a sunburn.

Re:The health benefits of better air by Eric_WVGG on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @04:46AM (#26967161)
Unless that skin cancer thing is also actually overblown… https://elemental.medium.com/what-if-avoiding-the-sun-is-bad...

As the parent said, plenty of nuance to go around.

Re:The health benefits of better air by rob74 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @05:21AM (#26967408)
If the shepherd has kids before dying (of skin cancer or something else), it doesn't really make a difference for the survival of the species...
Re:The health benefits of better air by kosh2 on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:28AM (#26967790)
Skin cancer probably plays no role for your ability to reproduce. By the time you die from skin cancer you already had children and probably even grandchildren.
Re:The health benefits of better air by bluGill on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:46AM (#26967875)
The longer you live as a male the more children you can have. Also grandparents helping raise grandkids is a factor in their survival in the village ..
Re:The health benefits of better air by globular-toast on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:32AM (#26978695)
We also used to be black. Humans now move to places for which they do not have a suitable skin colour, like Australia.
Re:The health benefits of better air by saiya-jin on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @04:23AM (#26967032)
Shepherds (like all folks) wear and wore clothes, long sleeves and often hats also in the summer. Also if skin is exposed to sun regularly, often, its much less sensitive compared to usual office worker seeing almost no sunlight and then having 2 weeks of mega exposure and sunburns on vacation.
Re:The health benefits of better air by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @04:59AM (#26967252)
The last time I looked in to this, enough sun exposure to tan is also enough sun exposure for folk of northern European discent to badly increase skin cancer risks.

This is why tanning studios have been banned in Australia.

Re:The health benefits of better air by asaddhamani on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @05:19AM (#26967387)
Why would sunlight cause us to lose hair but not other animals?
Re:The health benefits of better air by blunte on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @06:18AM (#26967724)
I don't see how sunlight would cause us to lose any animals, unless perhaps it was too bright.
Re:The health benefits of better air by astura on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:55AM (#26968767)
Wide brim hat and long sleeves.
Re:The health benefits of better air by arisAlexis on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @05:09AM (#26967318)
comparing average lifespan of 30 to 80?
Re:The health benefits of better air by darkwater on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @05:28AM (#26967459)
That's actually a valid point, thanks. Although I don't know what's the age distribution for skin cancers.
Re:The health benefits of better air by darkerside on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @08:22AM (#26968517)
Besides melanomas which are relatively rare, most skin cancers actually carry a net mortality benefit because of the association with being outside.
Re:The health benefits of better air by KMag on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @09:12AM (#26968913)
That's super interesting!
Re:The health benefits of better air by vladvasiliu on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @09:34AM (#26969161)
I don't know about that. My memory of shepherds from when I was a kid in my grandparents' village was of a guy being covered head to toe in what looked like terribly hot clothing for the summer. And this wasn't some high-altitude village, either.

I figure I was getting much more sun exposure as a kid running around in t-shirt and shorts then the local shepherds did.

Re:The health benefits of better air by Symmetry on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @09:14AM (#26968948)
I'm sure their skin cancer morbidity is higher but the studies I've seen seem to show that sun exposure overall correlates with lower mortality and morbidity overall. There may be confounders like exercise at play but shepherds are probably getting more than most subway workers.