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Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by nromiun on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:12AM (#26957004)
> We don't allow apps with any code that could put a user, a user’s data, or a device at risk.

If Google thinks the ability to execute arbitrary code puts users' data at risk why don't they go the full iOS route and ban everything, from scripting apps to other JS engines beside Chromium?

I am so sick of their behaviour, the only reason I am still on Android because things like F-Droid still exists and iOS is even more closely guarded.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by pdkl95 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:39AM (#26957431)
>> "Can't you just make us a general-purpose computer that runs all the programs, except the ones that scare and anger us? Can't you just make us an Internet that transmits any message over any protocol between any two points, unless it upsets us?"[1]

The War On General Purpose Computing continues. Far too many business models depend on selling general purpose computers as "appliances". They presume it is possible to sell a computer that isn't Turing complete.

[1] https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by ballenf on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:47AM (#26957539)
The battle really parallels the larger right to repair debate. (Especially if we realize the latter is probably is better called the right to exercise control over purchased goods.)
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by MayeulC on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:35PM (#26958248)
The right to purchase.

It's become an issue of defining "purchasing". But companies don't want us to purchase appliances, they would be much happier if we could rent them.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by ticviking on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:12PM (#26958735)
And I would. At much much much lower prices
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by Loughla on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:31PM (#26958954)
I have had my same fridge for 10 years, with no signs of failure. Unless the monthly payment was $3.00 or less, I would be paying more than I should starting in June.

The rental/do not own anything model is just awful, in my opinion.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by brobdingnagians on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:42PM (#26959081)
Totally agree. The more time passes, the more I realize that I want to own what I have. I've grown more selective about what I purchase in general and I've become more minimalistic; but if I want to have it at all, then I want it to be mine free and clear. Especially when it comes to tools, land, and personal items. I want Good Quality and paid for with cash.

I tend to use things until they completely wear out, and I get really good life out of them. This makes them very cheap compared to the usage pattern of upgrading all of the time. Renting would be very expensive lifestyle; and my usage pattern is more environmentally friendly to boot.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by spicybright on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:51PM (#26959175)
Couldn't agree more. Anything you don't own 100% can be put in jeopardy totally at randomly. If it's something important that can be incredibly stressful.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by colonelpopcorn on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:05PM (#26959326)
I think the trend of soft social credit score via big tech makes this an even dicier proposition.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by sdenton4 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:05PM (#26959329)
For appliances, the vulture capitalists are building things to break sooner to get you to buy more often.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by Loughla on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @03:57PM (#26960710)
White goods are relatively easy to repair, though, and the parts tend to be relatively easy to find as well.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by throwaway_4747 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:29PM (#26958936)
Soon you will own nothing and be happy! According to the great reset and the WEF.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by zerd on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:05PM (#26959328)
Leasing usually isn't cheaper than owning long term though. So your total cost will most likely be higher.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by ticviking on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @12:39PM (#26971332)
Hence my point about the price needing to be much much lower.

It's not that I want to own or lease most random stuff I use. I want the use of a particular item. Since owning is cheaper I own a lot of stuff.

If my local library or maker space had better tool and book availability I would own fewer tools sitting in the shed used for one project and not with the effort to resell

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by utexaspunk on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:12PM (#26959416)
Gotta get that steady income. We're quickly becoming a society split between rentier capitalists and renters
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by MayeulC on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @05:17PM (#26961693)
On the other hand, if they expected us to rent phones, I imagine they would be a lot sturdier... And probably find a second life for them, though that's happening: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/04/samsung-starts-offic...
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by echelon on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:21PM (#26958830)
Apple is guilty of this too.

No general computing company should be the single ingress point to running on their platform. For platforms with significant penetration, this is a market monopoly. [1]

For Apple, it's iOS and, increasingly, MacOS.

For Google, it's Android, and as has become glaringly obvious, Chrome. They shouldn't be allowed to run a browser.

The DOJ needs to stamp out this anti-competitive, anti-consumer behavior.

You can "protect" consumers with a permissions model and malware signature warnlist regardless of whether you enforce a store. Microsoft does it. Microsoft is the only company playing fairly.

([1] And no, this doesn't apply to game consoles. They're toys with lots of alternatives. You don't do business, banking, dating, note taking, drawing, stock trading, etc. on them.)

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by anoncake on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:12PM (#26959413)
> You don't do business, banking, dating, note taking, drawing, stock trading, etc. on them.)

Because it's artificially made impossible. No computer should be artificially restricted – let's not keep any loopholes open for no reason.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by lotsofpulp on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:08PM (#26959363)
> You can "protect" consumers with a permissions model and malware signature warnlist regardless of whether you enforce a store.

I’ll believe it when I see an alternative to iOS devices that my dad can’t get malware on and only need a few seconds to fix by uninstalling an app or power cycling the device.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by wwarner on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:53PM (#26958478)
Agreed. I would feel better about this if I didn't think apps and local computing were really important. The alternative to phone apps is the web, but the web will never be fast (imo) and is simultaneously getting less open every day as well.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by bakatubas on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:03PM (#26959310)
The web is the way for universal exposure. Regardless of speed it’s the only standardized, universal and widely used interface.

WebAssembly will be the ticket there—once it’s developed a bit more.

That being said, nothing compares to native. You could have shitty hardware by today’s standard with amazingly performant software if there weren’t so many damn layers in-between.

People are fickle with hardware though and we devs need things to slow down a bit to appreciate the nuances of each device!

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by oneplane on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:25PM (#26958099)
Does it? Everyone is quick to judge but coming up with an alternative is hard enough that nobody has done it so far.

With scale comes scaling issues; general purpose computing and repairability need a different commercial model that doesn't match with the currently used models.

This leaves two avenues:

- Make it worse for everyone but keep it going

- Make it worse for everyone in a different way and keep it going

I don't know of a good solution here, but I do know that it's a sucky situation and the many "good ideas" to fix it aren't actually making it that much better.

Current scenario:

- Manufacturer on the hook for most things but also controls most things

- End-users that fall within the 90% bell-curve are fine

- End-users that fall outside of that are royally screwed and they don't even know it

- Users that are not end-users are screwed, but they know they are

So far all I have seen is:

- Manufacturers still on the hook for everything but they get to control less

- Everyone gets a little better but also a little screwed now

- The 10% outside of the curve don't get as screwed as they did but they still don't really know that they are screwed

- The non-users don't get screwed the way they used to but still get screwed

To clarify:

If I were to manufacture something, express what user experience comes with my 'thing' and warrant that experience to a certain degree, I don't want to be on the hook for any service or cost outside of that. The more I get to control, the smaller I can make the risk. That means I can also plan ahead better and reserve resources, but not so much that I don't have resources for something else left over.

This also means that if someone wants a different experience (i.e. they are not my targeted audience) or if someone wants to do something I cannot verify, I really do not want to be on the hook for that.

In total that means:

- If what I want and what my customer wants is similar enough, we're both happy

- If a small percentage wants something else, I cut my losses and simply don't serve their needs as soon as the cost of maintaining that deviation is bigger than what I would make off of it (short term and long term)

- If someone does something I don't have control over, but they do come to me to fix their problem, I don't want to be responsible for that, and I don't want to do any research on the possibility that something I made happened to break at the same time the customer broke something else; I just want a blanket "I am the captain of my UX" rule and be done with it

Now, I'm not saying this is ideal, or that I am an actual manufacturer, or that this is specifically what Google is doing (or Apple is doing for that matter), but I am saying that you can't have it both ways. Want something cheap and abundant? Gotta have scale. Can't have scale if you make a bunch of risk, add a lot of differences and support more than your middle-of-the-bell-curve. This sucks, but it's also not easy as saying "let me do what I want", because what happens to you and your device has side-effects, and I really don't want to get affected by something someone on the mobile network (or wifi network) I'm on did to their 'personal' and 'owned' and 'freedom' and 'muh righz' device.

Or in a high contrast (black-and-white/good-or-evil) line: If you want to be on a shared service, play by the rules or get out. (reality isn't that high of a contrast obviously, but it drives the point of externalities home a lot quicker)

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by ShroudedNight on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:42PM (#26958335)
Your primary alternative already sounds materially better than the 'Current Scenario' you describe:

1 - I'm not sure I've encountered anybody that universally falls within the 90% 'ideal' coverage. The more hostile things are to outliers, the more difficult everyone's life becomes.

2 - As far as I can tell, the slack that allows the bottom and top vigesimile (? 1/20th) to survive is also what allows the flexibility to foster the discovery of novel technical and societal configurations that are materially better than the status quo. That's how a kid from a family of coal miners has a path to making significant contributions to NASA.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by oneplane on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:25PM (#26958874)
As for point 1: that depends; if your business operates on keeping the center of the bell curve happy, and you don't like to risk that, than implementing something that degrades that doesn't seem like a sound business decision. Keep in mind that this is from the 'producer' perspective.

As for point 2: that should indeed be how it works, but the circumstances have changed, especially for large scale general purpose computing, and for various reasons and stakeholders as well. This is also the (wrong) fuel on the (wrong) fires in the current discussions on ownership, repairability and shared systems; it often tries to compare the "now" with a chosen "back then", and leaves out externalities causing the whole comparison to be useless.

For example: it used to be that you could run whatever code you wanted and you didn't need anyones permissions and nobody could stop you. Now, at scale, that means everyone from teenagers at schools circumventing the implementation of a usage policy to state-level actors extracting information would run whatever they want. They are of course already doing that to some degree, but this would be so much bigger and so much easier when you just 'run whatever code appears at the JMP', we might as well not have an internet.

This, in turn, means that you have to have some form of control, and some form of distribution or supply of such control as neither the will, nor the skill exists at the required scale to have everyone do this individually. How does one assert such control? Cryptographically. And now you're in PKI hell, or you're in DRM hell with DRM servers that go offline and render systems unusable. Oh, and you get DMCA and Legal requirements for free too.

It would be amazing if we could figure out a way to operate shared systems, and have some form of delegated control without having a PKI-like authority as the only way to ensure it. But I haven't seen it yet :-(

And this is just one of the many issues.

Take hardware for example; you can do plenty of nefarious things with hardware, and the user would never know about it. Want to backdoor an audio module so it constantly streams what the microphone picks up to an actor of choice (a social media company, advertising company, your abusive spouse, the government of a state that will hurt you on detection of dissent), you can do that and no normal user would ever notice. How would you then prevent such modification? Well, you could make hardware hard to access or hard to modify without visible marks. That's one area (slightly) covered, but then there is the software, imagine hacking that remotely. So how would you do something about that? Perhaps signing the software and checking the signature. Bam, back in PKI hell.

And if you were to make hardware hard to access, now you have a bad UX when someone comes to your service department and gets presented with a huge bill because your device had to be rebuilt because your kid put puke in the microphone hole. But if you make it unsafe you have the other problems again. No winning deal there. Or what if you use seals, now you have no idea why the seals are broken. Did someone tamper with it? Was it just a service call that's not registered in your system because it was done elsewhere? Who can you trust? What if you fix the reported issue but now something else breaks and you don't know if you did it or the previous tech did it? Guesses everywhere, everyone is sad, nothing works. yay.

Again, no real solution here. Say you do the (not very often implemented) secure boot method where you insert your own CA; that's great for yourself, not great for a shared system, because now everything else that requires you to be securely booted needs to trust that CA too. This, hoever, is an area where you can do a partial fix: if you just want local verification and you have the CA and CT you can at least know for yourself. But that doesn't work at scale. We can't expect billions of people to be PKI experts. And we can't expect them to understand the ramifications of the lack of verification either. (which includes effects on them, but also effects on everyone else they are in contact with by proxy) So now you still need that 'magic' central authority making a policy and a verification for that policy and enforcement. PKI hell all over again!

(keep in mind, I don't name PKI hell a hell because PKI is bad, I think it's great and I love me some hashing, public-key cryptography and root-of-trust chains -- it's just that there is no solution right now where you don't end up having an authority that can use it for good and bad at the same time)

There are a lot of scenarios where we could mitigate 'some' of it:

- Authenticated core but leave peripherals alone (your mainboard and CPU and AV chain would be on its own, but your keyboard can be key logging you as much as you want)

- Unauthenticated mode but no interaction with shared systems (would work great for things like farming equipment)

- Offline or do-it-yourself mode (again, no interaction, but you'd be offline anyway)

But then you're still in the realm of real-world abuse (want to know your ex'es password? backdoor the keyboard! steal your boss's documents? backdoor the printer!).

I don't know how to fix all of this, but removing all forms of authentication and still having shared systems isn't the way.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by ShroudedNight on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:52PM (#26959919)
> just 'run whatever code appears at the JMP', we might as well not have an internet.

I'm old enough to have used the internet with a computer running Windows 98SE. As far as I can tell, besides data throughput, only webmail, maps, and media streaming have gotten materially better since that time, and even those peaked in an era when people were still running Windows XP SP3.

Despite all this froth about how we need to lock stuff down within an inch of its life with manufacturer-specified code verification, (North American) banks still seem to mostly be using the same terrible authentication policies they were 10, even 20 years ago.

The hardware problem isn't new; phone taps have been easy to install for decades. The world didn't end, nor did we shut down the telephone network.

In re software, we could easily strengthen owner trust in systems without having manufacturers ensnare us in straitjackets. Trust on first use could allow an infrequently-updated chain loader to verify subsequent components without depriving the owner of using the system as they desire. Hardware tokens, or physical buttons with dedicated circuitry could prevent certain system functions from being configured / updated without direct user intervention. 'Trusted' execution environments could be used to run software of particular significance to the device owner. We have an enormous quantity of tools in our tool box to improve the security of systems without relinquishing ultimate control.

Ultimately, though, liberty will always have some irreducible risk. It's not obvious to me why we should be valuing status-quo business plans to its detriment.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by oneplane on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @03:40PM (#26960493)
The issue is that the users are not capable of overseeing the consequences of their actions, and when you function in a shared system that is not great. (understatement of the year)

Even technically skilled users won't benefit from a construction of 'trust on first use', when was the last time you verified the host key of a system you SSH'ed into for the first time? How do you trust a system purely on something like that? And even then, when you got an error that the host key no longer matched, did you go on a research run to figure out how this might have happened, or did you just replace the key in your local known hosts cache and went on with your day?

What about websites, do you disable all CA's and just use local key pinning on all the websites that you visit? This is something you could do right now. But you won't, and neither will anyone else because it is far too inconvenient. It makes the entire thing useless. And every time you send an email, are you going to verify the fingerprint of the supplied certificate as well?

While it might not obvious to you, the feasibility of this at scale is something you can figure out by simply talking to users, looking at A/B test, comparative research, and looking at the security configuration of various user's systems and asking why they might have chosen the configuration as it is, and what the impact to them, the people they interface with and the internet as a whole might be.

wrt phone taps: it's possible and not the point (and not useful; the Americans did plenty of local and global taps and almost none of the broad taps yielded anything useful over 10 years, it was only the highly targeted taps that yielded real results). It's also not froth, "locking up stuff" and "straight jackets". It's about a hard problem, with everybody having an opinion but nobody having a solution. And the only thing people seem to want to do in such a scenario is apply a scorched earth policy which besides the obvious destruction doesn't yield a solution either. With the current devices and services there is so much personal data, proximity and interaction that the value and impact is much higher than your landline at home. The point isn't to make it perfect or perfectly secure, but to make it hard enough that it isn't an attractive broad-spectrum target anymore. Making it cryptographically hard to hack into a baseband, a bootrom or kernel is a very effective method to make this protection a reality, and so far there has not been a successful alternative presented by anyone, anywhere.

Ultimate absolute liberty is a fallacy, externalities exist, and society doesn't work in anarchy (but doesn't flourish in strict hierarchy either). Until you can manipulate time and space, and modify matter at a subatomic level, you are and will always be dependant on externalities, and as such you have to work with those. How hard you make it for yourself or others depends on the degree of society and civilisation you can live with. You don't control the BGP tables on your ISP's routers, but that seems to be fine for all the millions of users. But all of this is straying away from the topic at hand quite significantly.

(Edit;) As to the 'value status-quo business plans': that is not something we value, but something the producers of some large-scale hardware and software manufacturers value. They aren't society's friend, but they do need it to buy its products. And if the USP of the product is something you want to remove, then the manufacturer is probably going to try to prevent that. This would be 'fixed' by you getting what you want and they getting what they want, but that is not technically feasible (or: has not been shown to be technically feasible yet), hence the long blocks of text describing that problem.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by EvanAnderson on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:07PM (#26959343)
If the network can be adversely affected by a "muh righz" device then the network's threat model is shoddy. Taking away freedom to prop up a badly engineered product isn't fixing the bad engineering.

The Internet is a good example. The threat model has been far too trusting, historically. We're paying for that in a variety of different ways. Burning it all down and starting over is impossible, so we're stuck in a mess. Maybe we can do better in the future.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by oneplane on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:12PM (#26959417)
Indeed. I would perhaps formulate it slightly differently but it is what it is.

This is also something that feeds the 'it used to be better back in the day' feeling, because some aspects might actually have been better because too many possible threat actors back then wouldn't take internet seriously and as such weren't an actual threat. So it wasn't safer, it was just less-attacked. As a result where was less pressure to make hardened clients and servers, and as a result of that, it meant that things like digital signatures were extremely optional (and computationally too expensive to include for the sake of it).

On the other hand, it's also the openness that brought its success, and may very well cause its downfall. (that said, nobody has been able to come up with a worthy replace ment so far) Having no single owner makes it better in that regard, but also worse.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by ncann on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:41PM (#26958312)
Even as a casual Android dev I've noticed it becoming more and more restrictive over the years, from restricting apps from reading storage, to restring apps from accessing clipboard, to restring apps from running in background, and a ton of other things all in the name of protecting customer. Every time I update to a new phone with a new Android version my hobby apps (which only I use, not published anywhere) are broken in some ways because of this. The end goal of Android seems to be a closed system like iOS and that makes me sad. You can make things harder or hard by default but at least give the power user some choices damn it.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by jabroni_salad on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:01PM (#26958588)
You can still do things, its just that now the user has to approve it. Maybe a 'let every app have every permission by default' checkbox would make you happy but I'm not going to advocate for it. And you can still sideload an APK without even having to jailbreak the device.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by Jaruzel on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:32PM (#26958965)
Re read the parent post. They write hobby apps that they clearly sideload themselves. They are also right, each iteration of the SDK takes away another feature of the device the app can access, regardless of whether you ask the user, in this instance the author of the app, for permission.

The end state is for apps on Android to be either pointless fluff that basically do nothing useful, or mega apps written by big corps where the rules don't apply. Hobbiest coders are not wanted, or accommodated.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by ncann on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:13PM (#26959422)
Exactly. To give an example, I have a dictionary app that I wrote to facilitate my French learning that runs in the background and automatically looks up word copied to the clipboard (e.g. from Play Books or Chrome) and brings up the definition. Starting with Android 10 or so they disabled clipboard listener for apps in the background so the whole functionality is toasted. There is no permission to enable this "clipboard listener in background"
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by criddell on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:20PM (#26958815)
> at least give the power user some choices damn it

At some point it just doesn't make economic sense to do that.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by stjohnswarts on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:53PM (#26959923)
That's the way only bean counters should think, not developers, it should be a problem to solve since it helps keep us honest and not just a cog in the system.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by lallysingh on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:35PM (#26959700)
That's how platforms evolve. First they work to attract developers, and later they work to reduce abuse.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by FredFS456 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:00PM (#26957713)
There's nothing wrong with the appliance business model - embedded devices that use microcontrollers are Turing complete and yet no one complains about those. It's only when devices are marketed as general-purpose (i.e. smartphones, PCs) but are locked down to prevent running arbitrary user-loaded code that it becomes a problem.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by horsawlarway on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:21PM (#26958039)
I disagree.

I also mind when things like my tractor or my car are locked down to prevent my ability to use a 3rd party repair shop, repair it myself, or make changes so the item better suits me: The person who fucking owns that computer.

I think there's a very real risk that the concept of "ownership" is going to die if we continue in this fashion.

Do you own a thing if you're prohibited, intentionally - by the manufacturer - from making any changes? I'd say no.

Do you own a thing if it has to check in to an online service controlled by someone else before it works? I'd say no.

Instead you're just renting, and these companies are intentionally rent-seeking (in the worst possible way).

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by Grimm1 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:25PM (#26958098)
Add that on to the fact that almost everything is rent to buy with "incentives" shoved in your face for never actually finishing out the contract to own something, like your phone. I think ownership for everyone outside of some select few is in very real danger and I've thought so for some time.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by stjohnswarts on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:54PM (#26959945)
I think as long as you're willing to give up your warranty on your tractor/car/whatever because you're hacking on it with 3rd party tools/firmware you should be able to do whatever you want with it. Just remember it's a two way street and everything has a price, you will have to give up something to get something.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by adreamingsoul on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:25PM (#26958100)
I agree.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by kube-system on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:25PM (#26958101)
I still like my car to have an immobilizer, and locks on the ignition and doors. There is certainly some level of access controls that most people definitely want.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by kelnos on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:38PM (#26958278)
That's not what people are taking about, though. Certainly people want security features that make it more difficult for someone else to steal their car. But those features should be under the control of the owner of the car, not the manufacturer.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by kube-system on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:43PM (#26958352)
It's really hard to do that and make the thing a consumer-friendly product. We've been trying to solve this problem for most of the history of computers, yet, attacking authentication (often indirectly) is still the #1 way that computers are compromised.

Most people simply are unable to properly handle private keys. All of the systems with the highest levels of consumer satisfaction have third parties that manage (or at least can override) keys on the user's behalf. Systems that do what you're suggesting are notoriously plagued with issues surrounding key management to the point where they never reach mainstream use. i.e. PGP, bitcoin, etc.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by salawat on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:46PM (#26958375)
Those are still "yours" in a sense, so don't fall into the feature set the poster you are replying to is talking about. Though the immobilizer somewhat skirts the line. (Or at least from my personal view).

Think John Deere implementing software lockouts in the tractor ECU. That is nothing more than forcing their business model onto the end user through digital logic.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by stjohnswarts on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:57PM (#26959980)
Those are the sorts of things that need to be legislated. You should not be able to lockout people from ECU for example, but the person would have to be willing that a compromised ECU can blow up/damage their engine and they will have to accept that the warranty is invalid the second they mess with the ECU programming.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by Jiro on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:57PM (#26961452)
That's no good because the car can malfunction for reasons other than damage caused by the ECU, and the warranty covers those reasons too. You shouldn't have to lose your warranty on part A because you modified unrelated part B.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by kube-system on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:56PM (#26958515)
They're just as much "mine" as an iPhone is. It is extremely common for digital authentication of physical keys to be protected by encryption or signing by the manufacturer.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by horsawlarway on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:52PM (#26959918)
Sure, but to be as blunt as possible - You don't own your iPhone. Full stop.

You are renting it from Apple. They control what you run, when you run it, what you can install, what you can remove.

By default, they're shipping you a device where you're literally not the root user. I can't possibly think of a clearer argument that you're renting, and entirely at the whim of Apple (which does have root access, and actually owns the device you happen to be using).

The issue to me is that ownership implies the right to modify and change a thing, especially in ways that the original manufacturer doesn't support or agree with.

If the manufacturer is still calling all the shots on your device, you don't own the device!

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by kube-system on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:05PM (#26960802)
Sure. No matter what your definition of "own" is -- I am saying, my car is already the same thing.

The question is, do we have a good solution to enable the average user to own their device while also ensuring security and availability?

We have two options with cars, either intentionally implement a security hole, or let the manufacturer "own" it. Because the other option -- tell the customer they're SOL when they lose their private key, is not a solution that is practical (grandma will lose hers) or possibly even legal (manufacturers' obligation under lemon law).

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by horsawlarway on Friday April 30, 2021 @03:44PM (#26998341)
This is a solved dilemma. Lets take the car - There's already a huge security hole: The car key.

That key disables all the security measures to stop the car from moving and lets the user drive it.

Why should the same key not also allow 3rd party parts to be installed, or disable any other security feature the user would like to disable?

The user has already been given a device the compromises the entire security system, why do you think they need to do anything as complex as store a private key (it's embedded in the physical key).

Same question for phones - The user's pin/password already removes essentially all functional security from the system. I'd add a requirement for a physical switch to be toggled in the case of the phone (a tiny toggle header, or a certain combination of presses on the available buttons should do just fine) to rule out network based access.

In general though, security measures added by the manufacturer always fail, because the user has to actually use the thing at some point.

So given we already have the hole, the only reasons I can come up with for continuing to forbid the owner of the device from actually owning it are

1. It adds cost to the product

2. It removes future revenue from the company (because that pesky owner might choose a cheaper repair shop if they actually own the device... however will the company maintain their monopoly on parts/service?!?!? Think of the children!)

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by dTal on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:43PM (#26958338)
And who owns the keys to those things? You, or the manufacturer?
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by kube-system on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:52PM (#26958465)
Many vehicles have the keys stored in their ECU/Immobilizer signed/encrypted with the manufacturers' key.

There are some (mostly older) where you can directly reprogram the eeprom but those cars are easier to steal, because anyone can also do this.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by pdkl95 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:41PM (#26958316)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization

So many people complained about not being able to run their on firmware on the TiVo that it caused the GPL to be updated to version 3.

While Turing machines are universal, there are practical limitations of the hardware. A tiny embedded microcontroller with kilobytes (or less) of memory is not an attractive target for customization or repurposing. Today it is probably easier/cheaper to simply buy a Rasberry PI or similar.

Also, some companies understand that they are in the business of selling hardware and don't particularly care what you do with it.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by dalbasal on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:20PM (#26958816)
>> There's nothing wrong with the appliance business model

Do you mean that literally? There is daylight between "appliances shouldn't exist" and "there's nothing wrong with appliances." I mean, I agree that microcontrollers and smartphones/PCs are different. There's obviously something wrong if problems emerge at some point along a scale. There's no real defining line between GPCs and microcontrollers.

I also don't think it's a problems if someone somewhere has a locked down PC. It is a problem if most people do.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by CivBase on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:11PM (#26958713)
As far as I'm concerned, as soon as you've publically released an SDK and invited third parties to form businesses off of developing software for your device, you have no right to represent the device as an appliance. At that point it is obviously a general purpose computer.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by criddell on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:24PM (#26958860)
Would you call things like the Amazon Echo and Sony Playstation general purpose computers?
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by CivBase on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:25PM (#26958879)
Yes.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by glsdfgkjsklfj on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:27PM (#26958124)
> no one complains about those

YOU do not complain about those.

I complain about my TV showing me ads. I complain about my car not resetting one annoying light when i change the oil. I complain about the proprietary connectors on my generic batteries that restrict me to one brand of power tools (that get's discontinued for new proprietary connectors every 2 years).

It's fine if you love exploitation capitalism. But don't go assuming crap about others.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by therealjumbo on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:25PM (#26958887)
I think the more interesting cases are 3D printing of weapons, and in the future programmable biological material. One of his statements is that he himself, may not like the applications enabled by general purpose computing, but that even if he personally doesn't like them they shouldn't be outlawed or banned.

Google messing around with their app store is peanuts compared to the government banning or restricting 3D printers because they could be used to evade gun control for example.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by Aperocky on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:44AM (#26957498)
It's inevitable, given the scale that has to happen before ASIC become remotely profitable and how cheap general purpose computers are today.

Just buy some cheap SOC from the market and load the software, close it in a blackbox and call it a day. It's going to be the future now. God forbid they also talk to internet and runs an OS version from 2014 and never gets patched. It's a botnet paradise.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by leowbattle on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:17PM (#26958793)
From the article parent linked: "It doesn't take a science fiction writer to understand why regulators might be nervous about the user-modifiable firmware on self-driving cars"

It's not just regulators who are nervous! What if someone modifies the firmware in their self-driving car and introduces a bug that causes the car to crash and kill someone?

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by adrianN on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:20PM (#26958818)
Then presumably we do the same for that as we do for other illegal modifications or reckless driving today.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by seany on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:23PM (#26958844)
You mean, like people can do on purpose right now?
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by viro on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:20PM (#26958015)
the issue is we as a market expect them to be responsible for the security of the OS and its apps. Its very difficult to manage security without control.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by kelnos on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:23PM (#26961034)
Only from certain perspectives.

If I'm a network engineer at a company, I need full control of the network to ensure security. As just a user of that network, I would have to understand that I don't have full control for security reasons. But it's not my network.

When it comes to consumer devices, there's no reason why security requires locked down devices that the so-called "owner" of the device can't control. The end-user should always be in charge. If the manufacturer chooses to put escape hatches in front of features that could lead to security compromise, then that's fine. But those escape hatches should exist, and I refuse to buy a general-purpose computing device that doesn't have them.

The Google vs. Apple argument here is specious; the locked-down nature of Apple's devices is not necessary for their better (but honestly still not great) security, and the less-locked-down nature of Android is not what makes it a security minefield.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by dalbasal on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:14PM (#26958762)
It's useful to see through a principles/fundamentals lens. General Purpose Computing that isn't Turing complete, or whatnot. Genuinely useful.

But, the "freedom is indivisible" take is not always useful, particularly not on its own. There are practical realities to contend with and the world of appliance-computing is big and complicated. A lot of issues relate to back competition, or lack thereof, for example.

>> an Internet that transmits any message over any protocol between any two points, unless it upsets us?

Look... The problems coming to fruition today have been talked about on HN/etc. for decades. They're hitting the political stage, and all those discussions have near zero impact. The ideas were never translated to general consumption form. We always prefered to be right over effective.

The average politician has never stops to think about how www, linux, email, gnu, wikipedia and such are possible, what that means. If they did, they don't have the vocabulary for it. We didn't give it to them. Just let them read "cathedral & bazaar" or somesuch. Instead of working we snarked our incomprensible principled platitudes. Worse, we arrogantly assumed we'd win anyway. The internet couldn't be locked down. A country who tried to make Great Firewall would fail. Property rights would be redefined^ because digital copyright is impossible and the internet is more important than Beatles royalties. How wrong we were. How seldom we remember it.

Classic ideologies like Marx, Rand & such tend to fall into this exact arrogant trope. I am so right about everything that it's all inevitable. History will conspire. The arrogant fools. Us too.

Think of all the pull that Disney, EMI, etc have. Every politician can recite the case for copyright verbatim, along with the other talking points. Protecting their interests is literally one of the main things the US uses its might for. It's always a non negotiable demand in trade relations. Every politician or hack commentator knows to cite "stealing intellectual property" as a complaints against china or whatnot. Major digital legislation (eg DMCA) was written by and for them, along with other laws.

Conversely, very few politicians or hack commentators could articulate a digital freedom case, a case against copyright militancy, or a case the against software patents. Those that can will be freestyling it. No "talking point" sheets. No consistency. No real lobby. No solidarity. No effectiveness.

How the f##k do EMI & Disney have much more influence than us, or at least Google & such? We are arrogant fools. That's how. They're entertainment industries. We're the engine of modern economies. DMCA affected the tech business just as much as Disney. We even had status quo on our side, so all we needed was a hung jury. How did we lose this? It's a joke. Like Mike Tyson losing to McBride.

Right to Repair should have been long won. We should be battling for OS mandates on the back of it by this point.

So... where are we now? Politicians and journalist-types are literally starting to think of regulating social media as a "common carrier." Concepts recycled from early 20th century Telcom sagas. Not "neutral" carriers. Not "open" networks. No "free as in freedom." In fact, it seems like no idea from the personal computing age has influenced anything. No one who understands FOSS or how the www works is even in the room... the room where decentralising an internet-based communications network is being strategized. Do we realize how big a failure this is?

^No shade intended. I agreed ATT. I still do in the abstract. But, the lack of "what we need to do" was a mistake, IMO. History does not drive itself: http://www.paulgraham.com/property.html

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by yjftsjthsd-h on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:29AM (#26957275)
Given the issues that termux has hit, they're certainly moving that way.

https://github.com/termux/termux-packages/wiki/Termux-and-An...

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by donio on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:39AM (#26957432)
Once there is no way to run Termux that will be the end of the line for me and I've been on the Android train since the G1 days. I am ok with installing it from F-Droid or adb as long as it remains runnable. (I guess I am in the bargaining phase)

I don't think that I am ok with not being able to easily run my own executables since I rely on running a few Go utilities in the Termux CLI.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by yjftsjthsd-h on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:45AM (#26957521)
I'm personally planning to replace termux with a full chroot; my phone is rooted, so all I need is an app to give me the actual terminal emulator and I'm good. This would be fine for running the odd Go utility, but is likely to be insufficient if you're doing anything with the actual Android API (which termux has been great at). And of course, in the long term this is just another reason for me to hope the pinephone gets to prod-ready ASAP:)
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by suifbwish on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:39PM (#26958289)
I am curious what root kit you use for rooting your droid? I’ve always been hesitant to trust 3rd party kits like that.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by yjftsjthsd-h on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:26PM (#26958898)
I use magisk; it's open source and reputable.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by nromiun on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:35AM (#26957363)
Yep, Termux is the most used app on my phone and I don't know what I will do when they have to migrate to SDK 29. I will probably buy another phone and install LineageOS.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by negativegate on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:26PM (#26958105)
This is the first I've heard of Termux and now I'm curious what you use it for. Like are you SSHing into other environments?
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by dheera on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:41PM (#26958313)
SSH, and also when you're on the road and want to write a simple Python script to process something, or do something with your sensor data logging. Termux has a Python API to access sensor data, it has numpy, it has requests, so you can do a lot.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by nromiun on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:37PM (#26958264)
https://www.passwordstore.org

Here is a popular CLI app to manage passwords. I use it on my desktop, laptop and phone.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by terseus on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @03:47PM (#26960591)
You don't need Termux for that, there are native clients for Android, I use this one: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=dev.msfjarvis....
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by nromiun on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @12:02AM (#26965428)
There are native clients, but can you use git to sync the encrypted passwords with your other devices?

And that was just one example. You can also use python as a much better calculator, share files over wifi with a web server etc.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by donio on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:58PM (#26958537)
For me ssh to access my main Emacs session is a big part of it but I also run some shell scripts and CLI tools and services written in Go. ssh-ing back into the phone for file transfer is another important use.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by femiagbabiaka on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:42AM (#26957475)
Curious, is the Librem 5 an alternative you would consider?
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by nromiun on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:48AM (#26957556)
Sure, it is a good alternative. But I still need a phone to do some work, like Whatsapp and banking apps (which I don't think Librem supports). So I am waiting for it to become stable and a little mature.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by femiagbabiaka on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:24PM (#26958078)
Makes sense!
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by edrxty on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:21PM (#26958031)
Does LineageOS provide a workaround for this?
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by nromiun on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:27PM (#26958117)
Unfortunately there is no good alternative to Termux (its Android API). But with a rooted phone you can use chroot to install a Linux distribution. LineageOS is just a popular ROM for rooted phones.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by edrxty on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:41PM (#26959782)
I run lineage but I don't typically use my terminal on my phone unless I'm using it for SSH. I hadn't though of the chroot angle though. That's rather interesting...
[dead]
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by nromiun on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:40AM (#26957448)
It was just a figure of speech and if you know how Termux works even a rooted phone is no alternative. (Termux exposes Android APIs, like camera and GPS.)
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by pjmlp on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:25PM (#26958088)
Only because Termux developers refuse to use Java APIs and don't accept Android isn't a POSIX clone.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by higerordermap on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:32PM (#26958204)
Chill dude. How do I run gcc in java beanshell?
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by pjmlp on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:10PM (#26958692)
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by nulld3v on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:06PM (#26959332)
Can you elaborate on how this link is relevant?
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by pjmlp on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @02:02AM (#26966161)
Read it and learn how to use a C compiler on Android without termux.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by yjftsjthsd-h on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @05:09PM (#26961593)
Android certainly has an acceptable POSIX component when it's not artificially broken.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by pjmlp on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @02:04AM (#26966174)
Where is POSIX listed here?

https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis

> Starting in Android 7.0, the system prevents apps from dynamically linking against non-NDK libraries, which may cause your app to crash. This change in behavior aims to create a consistent app experience across platform updates and different devices. Even though your code might not be linking against private libraries, it's possible that a third-party static library in your app could be doing so. Therefore, all developers should check to make sure that their apps do not crash on devices running Android 7.0. If your app uses native code, you should only be using public NDK APIs.

Taken from https://developer.android.com/about/versions/nougat/android-...

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by rhinoceraptor on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:22PM (#26958050)
Arbitrary code isn't banned on iOS, there isn't anything (yet) that can create fully fledged apps like Droidscript, but a few cool apps are:

- iSH: an Alpine Linux shell environment, powered by an x86 to ARM JIT emulator

- Scriptable: an iOS automation tool using Javascript, it can even integrate with native iOS APIs like photos and calendars, create native UIs, etc.

- Pythonista: a Python IDE, you can create 2D games, use it as a REPL, integrate with native APIs, and much more

And of course, there are the 1st party apps, Playgrounds and Shortcuts.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by glsdfgkjsklfj on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:31PM (#26958171)
> Arbitrary code isn't banned on iOS

It is.

Even mozilla firefox is banned on the premise that it can run arbitrary code and yes, that is the official apple instance.

The fact that they apply it when they see fit and allow other times, and that it is totally arbitrary and opaque based on their own private interests, is exactly what everyone with common sense tried to explain when criticizing the walled garden.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by mrtranscendence on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:55PM (#26958507)
My understanding is that what's banned on iOS is not arbitrary code per se, it's arbitrary code downloaded from the internet. Code you enter yourself, like in Pythonista, is just fine.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by danShumway on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:36PM (#26959011)
> it's arbitrary code downloaded from the internet

That's a huge caveat though.

How far does that restriction extend? Can I share or import Pythonista projects from other people?

What's the difference between interpreting a file I downloaded from the Internet and visiting a website?

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by tomp on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:25PM (#26958883)
Isn't the problem JITing? Mozilla could ship Firefox, even with the JS engine, it would simply be unusable (compared to Safari) because they wouldn't be allowed to run JIT (only interpreter).
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by caleb-allen on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:19PM (#26958807)
I believe Pythonista is interpreted, not compiled, and outside of Apple's Swift app you are not able to run compiled code
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by lurkerasdfh8 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:30PM (#26958953)
Really? you are you going to defend that point as not arbitrary?

If you want to split hair, where would you draw the line? Should pythonista go out of the way to prevent copy paste from the browser/email?

Or should apple, being non-arbitrary, also blocks adobe PDF reader since it can open PDFs from the web with javascript just like a browser would do?

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by rhinoceraptor on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:05PM (#26958646)
Firefox isn't banned, Gecko and SpiderMonkey are. For a few reasons, Apple doesn't want Blink/V8 demolishing users' batteries, and they have the excuse that allowing 3rd party browser engines is a security risk.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by Oddskar on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:30PM (#26961113)
Firefox is in the AppStore.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by Phylter on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:31PM (#26958958)
You may not realize this but Apple allows scripting apps on their platform now. There are two notable Python language interpreters Pyto and Pythonista. There are some shell environments too that include Unix style command shells and different interpreters.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by kmeisthax on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:06PM (#26959334)
This is actually worse than the full iOS route, because Apple is likely to at least listen to appeals and implement bright-line rules between "things the app does" and "things users do". They ultimately do want to have developer tools on the App Store and are willing to accommodate them to a point. Even the "no competing browser engine" thing has a technical explanation: Apple wants to be able to update that part of your app without you being involved.

Google just doesn't care about what your app does until they start seeing click fraud, upon which they ban your app, delete your Gmail, and ghost you. They've even done this to paying GSuite customers, game studios they were working on, and their own employees' spouses. As far as I can tell, antispam is at the top of the org chart and can overrule all other layers of management. I would never trust Google with anything I can't backup or migrate to another service.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by austincheney on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:13PM (#26958739)
Weak.

The console tab of Chrome's developer tools allow arbitrary code execution. That example is not a security violation, ergo arbitrary code execution is potentially but not necessarily a security violation.

A valid remediation requires more than just arbitrary code execution, such as privilege escalation or leaking containment.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by cookiengineer on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:50PM (#26958436)
Technically, f-droid is a walled garden of sorts, too.

The difference is that fdroid is actually helping users through being transparent about it. The other stores and their policies usually are not transparent, and therefore nobody knows whether there were financial motivations involved in the decisions.

What I don't like is google claiming droidscript harms Android through a malicious AdMob ID. Even if that were the case, what happens to the 100.000+ installs that are rolled out already? And the Apps built with DroidScript?

If there's no support you can contact (at Google) and no changelog on what happened, the policies get intransparent and look more like a financial motivation rather than a decision that seemed to be beneficial for the end-users.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by CivBase on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:58PM (#26958534)
I can add third-party repositories to F-Droid. The default F-Droid repository may be a walled garden but as far as I can tell the app and protocol are definitely not.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by cookiengineer on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:02PM (#26958603)
A walled garden doesn't necessarily exist solely of proprietary protocols and code. In the case of fdroid, apps that violate open source licenses are not allowed.

So, technically, from the perspective of a company like Facebook, fdroid is a walled garden they cannot enter without open sourcing their code.

(I'm not saying fdroid's policies are bad. I'm just trying to make an argument for the counterside and am playing the devil's advocate here.)

PS: I know about third-party repositories. That's not the point, it's differences in policies and their effects on the ecosystem I want to discuss because I think they're more important.

Google advocates always make the argument that endusers "can just root their phones and install the APKs anyways" which is similar to f-droid with an external repository. Most non-technical endusers simply won't do that.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by CivBase on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:13PM (#26958738)
"In the case of fdroid, apps that violate open source licenses are not allowed" ...on the main repository. AFAIK, there's nothing stopping Google or anyone else from setting up their own F-Droid repository to distribute apps with proprietary code. The normal F-Droid app should be able to use a repository like that just fine.

EDIT: Addressing the "PS" that was added...

> Google advocates always make the argument that endusers "can just root their phones and install the APKs anyways" which is similar to f-droid with an external repository. Most non-technical endusers simply won't do that.

Android skirts around the criticisms fielded towards iOS by technically allowing users to install and distribute third-party apps. The real problem with Android is that the default distribution platform (Google Play Store) is a walled-garden, proprietary app with such a massively disproportionate market share that most users don't even realize there are alternatives. And Google ensures their store will always be the default because they hold their proprietary Google Play Services for ransom. And Google Play Services is so valuable because it provides many convenient features and functions, including some which used to be part of the operating system itself.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by cookiengineer on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:08PM (#26959359)
I totally agree with your points there.

But I think that the main issues of Android (or AOSP) are even a level deeper than just the Play Services.

There are lots of initiatives that try to create a free ecosystem for themselves (Lineage, /e/, Carbon, et al), with their own stores and sources for Apps. Most of them have varying degrees of success, due to gapps counterparts like microG [1] not being able to keep up with what Google's Play Services provide API-wise.

It's an absurd amount of features, and a lot of API workflows to consider. Bugs and crashes everywhere down the user experience...but hopefully they're getting slowly to a stable state.

Coming back to the real problem: I think it's actually the Vendor deals that Google did. Most of the manufactured devices are almost impossible to flash without reverse engineering skills, and this is intentional. Having to wait more than 3 months to unlock a smartphone's bootloader because the manufacturer doesn't give a damn about you is just one of many examples; setting aside that most of the unlock procedures are meant to be understandable by developers-only.

I think that in order to "really free Android" the creation, flashing, updating of ROMs has to be standardized in a more homogenic way (partition fatigue, anyone?), because it would allow a graphical and easy-to-use software to be built. That would allow to flash a ROM without e.g. losing all /data and more importantly - be usable by end-users without technical knowledge.

In my social circles I'm the guy that flashes LineageOS to their devices, because most of the terminology is so far away from the reality of most users that they have no single clue where to start. The amount of knowledge that is required to flash your device (and be Google-free, even in Apps with e.g. with Appwarden [2]) is absurd and as long as this is the case it will be a niche that's being ignored by politics (and potential regulation laws that would force Google's policies to change).

[1] https://lineage.microg.org/

[2] https://gitlab.com/AuroraOSS/AppWarden

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by CivBase on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:31PM (#26959651)
I kind of agree, although I'm not sure it's fair to say that the problem with Android is that you can't easily replace it with another OS. That's not really an Android problem.

It's incredible what a smartphone can do given its form factor and a lot of that is thanks to their use of SOCs. I have no experience with OS development for SOCs, but I hear it is much more involved because a new version of the OS must be created for each SOC - specialized to work with the device tree supported by that chip. As I understand, Google doesn't do that work. Manufacturers have to fork Android and implement support for their SOCs on their own, then they have to maintain that fork as new Android releases keep coming. It's no surprise then that manufacturers don't want to invest addition support into other operating systems like LineageOS.

There's probably a better way to do things. I'm sure manufacturers could make information more available to OSS communities which would allow them to do the work themselves more quickly and effectively. Like you mentioned, standardization would also go a long way towards making our current smartphone ecosystem more friendly to third-party OSes. But ultimately, none of that is really Android's fault.

Even without Google's vendor deals, I doubt the likes of Samsung, Motorola, or any other major smartphone manufacturer would start supporting LineageOS. It's hard enough to even get Linux suppport from desktop/laptop manufacturers. LineageOS is a really amazing project, but I don't think it's the one paving the way for open source operating systems on smartphones. I think most of that work has to come from the hardware side with projects like the PinePhone.

Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by _ZeD_ on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:09PM (#26958680)
no, literally: you can add any repository you want, even with proprietary code.
Re:Google have declared Droidscript is malware by donio on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:42PM (#26959801)
Would you call a Debian system a walled garden too then?