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Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by yrgulation on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:12AM (#26872000)
Property ownership is bad. Rent for life, dont leave inheritance to your children so they can rent for life too. All you need in life is clothing, entertainment, a bit of travel to distract you from your tiny living space, maybe a gadget or two and of course onsite work. Oh and praise from you manager to add meaning to your daily grind.

Or so “they” say while “they” amass thousands of properties and massive fortunes while we get tagged, farmed in office buildings, monitored and ignored in politics.

/Sarcasm

Sorry, I am bitter about this because I simply dont buy in to this concept. Owning your own home is, in my view, the first step towards financial freedom.

Downvote away but i strongly believe this concept is horrible.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by dbetteridge on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:45AM (#26872920)
I mean the article agrees with you?

It primarily talks about the unfairness of the current system, the NIMBY problem reducing housing stock and the issue of regulations intended to curb new building reducing the stock of houses so that only the elite and existing homeowners can afford them.

The section on renting/alternatives is mainly just a discussion about alternatives to the current unfair approach and some cases where things work better.

That said the situation in most of the western world is insanity, If I want to buy a house in my hometown (Perth, Australia) I need a minimum 5% deposit + 3-5% stamp duty and the median house now costs 500k AUD.

Median salary is closer to 75k AUD, so you're looking at a mortgage of roughly 6 salary years and a deposit of at least 50k (if you have good credit and no debts).

Edit to add:

A 20% deposit is minimum to not have to pay a 'Mortgage insurance' which gets added to your mortgage to cover the bank if you default and is usually equivalent to the difference between your deposit and 20%.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by elric on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:59AM (#26872999)
> a minimum 5% deposit + 3-5% stamp duty

Oh wow. I had to read the rest of your comment twice to understand that you were saying these seem high to you. They seemed really low to me. To put it into perspective, you need a 10-20% deposit in Belgium (depending on various factors) and there's a 6% tax for an old house (10% up until very recently) or 21% for a new house. It's basically impossible to buy a house if you're young or single or come from a poor family. I feel your pain.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by dbetteridge on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:08AM (#26873069)
Yeah sorry poor wording on my part, as a percentage it is low but as a percentage of income it is pretty high.

A 20% deposit is minimum to not have to pay a 'Mortgage insurance' which gets added to your mortgage to cover the bank if you default.

Belgium sounds like an even more painful situation, sucks for those of us who would just like to have a stable place to live and be allowed to add some personal character to (not allowed in most rentals ive lived in)

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by elric on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:06AM (#26874856)
Oh yeah, I forgot about the insurance, which is officially "not required", but no bank will give you a mortgage without one. Depending on how you decide to pay for it (installments vs lump sum), that can end up being another significant expense.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by tuukkah on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:21AM (#26873151)
In comparison, in Finland the stamp duty is 0% when you buy your first home while you are under 40.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by jorvi on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:03AM (#26873448)
> while you are under 40

This seems such a weird condition to add. Someone who doesn't earn much but saves up over 22 years for a house has to pay stamp duty on his first house, but someone privileged who can buy a house when 30 years old doesn't?

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by tuukkah on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:43AM (#26873803)
I fully agree. I guess the intention may have been to make people hurry up buying or building while young.

One of the major political parties here (Centre Party, the agrarian-liberal party) wants people to live outside of the cities. Finnish cities are so small that it's easy to commute from a place with plenty of cheap land and thus it's possible for most people to buy or build a house there if they want to.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by piva00 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:48AM (#26887374)
Isn't this the same basic principle that drove American suburbia? Expand the outskirts with building houses on bigger plots of land and empty the city centers. It just seemed to have killed city centers in the US.

Granted that Finland has a very different culture (disclaimer: I live in Sweden) and we aren't in the 50s anymore to invest heavily on a car-centric society but incentivising people to move away from city centres can have unpredictable consequences 20-50 years down the line.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by luch on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:37AM (#26873736)
I agree, it's better to differentiate based on revenues rather than just age.

In my country, if you're poor and if it's the first house you buy, you can ask a 0% tax loan from the government and use it to pay your stamp duty with it.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by himlion on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:10AM (#26874090)
The Netherlands has just implemented something like this as well, but so far nothing has changed for the better for starters.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by pc86 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:08AM (#26873065)
Is that tax added into the mortgage as a lump sum (meaning you pay interest on it for the life of the loan) or is it added to the payment each month?
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by elric on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:07AM (#26874878)
Lump sum in Belgium. You might be able to get away with tacking it on to the mortgage, but only if you have additional collateral (another home, rich parents, whatever). Or maybe if it's a really cheap house.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by dbetteridge on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:09AM (#26873077)
Not sure how Belgiums works, but Australias stamp duty is a lump sum you pay alongside your deposit when buying the property.

Correction: I double checked and it looks like it can be added to your mortgage, which isn't as bad up front.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by pc86 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:09AM (#26873488)
That's rough, although paying it once and being done with it is certainly preferable (long term, if you have the funds) to wrapping it into the mortgage and paying 3-4x over the life of the loan.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by rileymat2 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:03AM (#26874015)
Functionally it is wrapped into the loan because without that, you would have had more down payment.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by gassit on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:00AM (#26873976)
That is not quite correct. Stamp duty is payable at the time of settlement but it is normally added as a lump sum to the mortgage.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by dbetteridge on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:02AM (#26874007)
I've added an addendum! I must have misremembered that bit of info.

Thanks!

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by rwmj on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:38AM (#26873254)
What's the reason for the strange difference between the tax on old and new houses?
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by CaptArmchair on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:21AM (#26873584)
Belgium has complex housing and zoning problems caused by 50 years of inconsistent policies and regulations.

One (of many) big issue(s) is that the past has seen unchecked claiming of land for new projects leading to an acute shortage of land, while lots of existing houses and buildings are entirely outdated.

We are talking about houses which are 60 or 70 years old typically located in densely pouplated urban agglomerations and haven't seen little to no remodeling whatsoever during that time. These are hardly isolated, difficult to heat, are entirely outdated in terms of utilities and plumbing and so on.

The idea behind the difference is to incentivize people to buy and renovate older, existing houses and curbing the further occupation / use of free & open space with new construction and urban sprawl.

It should be noted: Belgium is also a country with an incredibly complex fiscal system. There are taxes as well as tax breaks on every aspect of life. Belgium is a complex federal nation with many levels of government. To put that in perspective: it's a country with 6 different governments. All of which turn politics and policy making, unironically, into 5D chess. The fiscal system tends to be the arena where everything comes together, generally as a compromise which is often more founded on pragmatism then necessity.

Historically, home ownership has been, and still is, massively incentivized in Belgium. But just like everywhere else, soaring housing prices and an ageing population are causing issues for younger generations who can't buy property without financial help from their parents.

And so, young people find themselves in a bind. They can't just buy any property, market dynamics and public policies push them towards buying outdated property only to face long, drawn out and expensive renovation projects just to bring everything up to date with modern, strict construction codes.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by marmaduke on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:49AM (#26873849)
> buying outdated property only to face long, drawn out and expensive renovation projects

I'm in a nearby country and this accurately describes my house. I gave up, we live in it, halfway renovated, crazy plumbing, mixed masonry, hairball electric panel, dangerous corners everywhere. Contractors are too expensive and the DIY spirit only goes so far when you're working parents.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by mrslave on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:52AM (#26873353)
Developers lobbying politicians. And because jobs! Is win-win[-everybody-else-loses].
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by KptMarchewa on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:02AM (#26873439)
Shouldn't the new houses have lower tax then? Why would developers lobby for lower taxes on old houses?
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by mrslave on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:06PM (#26883675)
> Shouldn't the new houses have lower tax then? Why would developers lobby for lower taxes on old houses?

Sorry if my first comment was a bit coy and unclear. Both ancestor comments are about Australia & Belgium. Google tells me that in Australia new properties are incentivized over old:

>Grant: First home buyers can access a $10,000 grant when purchasing or constructing a new home, regardless of how much the property is worth. Stamp duty concessions: The territory government provides an up to $18,601 Territory Home Owner Discount (THOD) on stamp duty costs for first-time buyers.

My Aussie friends tell me this changes frequently, that it also differs by state, but some sort of incentive to prefer new properties have been policy for a long time.

GP says that Belgium penalizes existing houses:

>a 6% tax for an old house (10% up until very recently)

So there aren't lower taxes on older properties in either country. You get a discount on the taxes only when you purchase a new property, which is an incentive in alignment with the interests of property developers.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by daemin on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:23AM (#26873602)
Also given that the median house prices are just below a million in Melbourne, and "slightly" above a million in Sydney, it makes saving up 20% for a deposit quite an endeavour. Then you need to account for all the other fees and stamp duty as well adding a few more percentage points of savings required.

The big problem in Australia is that nobody really in the government wants to do things to make houses more affordable. Anything that would immediately lower house prices would be a disaster for the political party and somewhat for the country. In fact the government has been doing all it can to keep house prices rising further and further.

First by adding a first-home-owners' grant, which just increased the prices of cheaper property, and most recently by allowing people to take money out of their retirement savings to buy a property. All this does is just add more fuel to the real estate market so prices would increase.

The only real way to lower prices would be for a genuine crash to happen, one where the government would be incapable of doing anything to prevent. The other would be to get rid of negative gearing, maybe just for existing property initially, so that people won't leverage up the eyeballs buying more and more investment properties.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by dbetteridge on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:01AM (#26873987)
Yeah Melbourne and Sydney are just insane, First home owners grant is great on paper but essentially covers none of the expense of buying a first home and like you said encourages the prices to increase even further.

I'm on a decent salary by Australian standards and am going to be waiting at least 2 more years before I can afford a 10% deposit (have been saving for several years already at a lower rate).

Just have to hope all the decent land/houses are still around by then and that the house prices dont outpace my savings.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by verelo on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:15AM (#26874154)
I love, as an Australian, waking up in the morning seeing the Australians all talking. During the day it’s all North Americans, but obviously this is a game of time zones.

Anyway. I just wanted to say that, and also, this issue is seemingly everywhere. I’ve been in Toronto Canada for over a decade now and prices have gone crazy for almost that entire time. When i arrived a house in the city was 350-400k, that same house today might fetch 1.6m, or if renovated I’ve seen them sell for as much as $3.8m

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by FredPret on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:34AM (#26876026)
Toronto went through an insane boom, yes, but there was a period in I think the 90’s that was very quiet for property values, so some of it may have been pent-up demand.

And now they’re building like crazy, with people leaving in droves. Hopefully that’ll depress prices long-term.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by michael1999 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:47AM (#26876219)
The Toronto area consistently adds >100k people each year, and added a full mega-person in the last 5. We have never built units for 100k beds in any year in the last 20. Don't hold your breath.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by anthony_barker on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:40PM (#26891971)
Immigration is a myth that real estate agents use to justify prices. Last year there were almost no immigrants and prices went up.

Consumer mortgage debt is directly correlated with housing prices in Canada. This plus constraints on permits for single family dwellings.

Drive around and have a look at some of the high end condo's at night - there are no lights on. Mostly dark.

The no capital gains and no inheritance tax loopholes in Canada will eventually be closed.

(https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/canada-popula...) percentage population growth 0.9% is very low based on historical standards.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by FredPret on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @01:45PM (#26877944)
I wonder how many beds are under construction right now. We may be only two out of that mega-person (lol) but we’re headed to a lake or another province within a year.

Condo rents have absolutely tanked, by the way

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by dbetteridge on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:49AM (#26874604)
I'm an Australian in London so for me its only mid afternoon :D

Goddamn those are some crazy numbers, how does anyone even begin to afford that? You'd be saving for 20 years just for a deposit....

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by daemin on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:45AM (#26875378)
I'm an Aussie in Europe now as well. Back when I lived in Sydney the average price of a home near where I lived was about 1.3 million, now I checked the prices last week and the estimated price is 2 million.

Somehow there was only a small dip in prices during the pandemic and now the property market is back on the boil again.

I honestly don't think any family without high dual incomes can actually afford a home now close to the city. The only places that are close to affordable for middle income families are far away from the centre.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Copernicron on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:30PM (#26880161)
It’s actually a lot worse than that. For properties over $1 million CAD, you are required to put down a 20% deposit. I came across an article not long ago that it would take the average household 30+ years to save the necessary down payment. I earn six figures and I’m single. I can’t afford to buy any time soon.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by viraptor on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:25AM (#26874293)
There's another way out which seems to be popular recently - move out of the city and get prices closer to $200k median for an ok house. You can see available houses in Victorian towns disappearing off the market over the last year as people move out enabled by remote work.

I get that not everyone can do it, but it's a possibility for more sanity in house ownership for a groups. Unfortunately that also allows Melbourne market to not crash for longer...

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by daemin on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:41AM (#26875319)
The problem is there's already a lot of demand for property in those smaller towns, at least the more desirable ones. So the locals are now the one's getting priced out of the market as more and more city-dwellers are moving to the popular smaller towns.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by viraptor on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:15PM (#26884688)
True. I don't think we can ever avoid that - city people moving out will raise prices elsewhere, but 1. there's a limit to it - it's a relatively small increase spread across many towns 2. small towns can grow aggressively around the current centres. Wang for example was planning for up to +23% 20y change in population until 2031 with all the related development areas and infrastructure. Many towns an do the same and will still be more attractive than the far suburbs of Melbourne (north beyond the airport).

So basically, as long as regional towns keep up with development and infrastructure, the overall result may not be a crash, but rather slow exodus from the cities. Now if only transport/trains would keep up with the times...

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by pc86 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:07AM (#26873059)
Buying a house for 10% down all in would be a dream in the majority of the US. Yes, FHA or FDA allow 3.5% or even 0% down in some circumstances but you're going to end up in an undesirable area (FDA) and be paying hundreds a month for mortgage insurance (both FHA and FDA). Which, while it sounds like something everyone should have, is you paying for the bank's insurance in case you default on the mortgage. To avoid this insurance you need 20% down after all fees so with realtors' commissions and all the pre-purchase expenses you're much closer to 30% down all in.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ihattendorf on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @01:06PM (#26877397)
We recently purchased in a large US metro area all-in for ~6% out of pocket. It didn't make sense for us to pay > 5% down on a conventional loan with interest rates below 3%. Depending on who you go with PMI rates can be as low as 0.25% of the loan value/year (~$20/month per 100k) if you have good credit.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by bluGill on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:22AM (#26874254)
Realtors commissions? There are none, the seller pays those in almost all case. It is possible to hire a buyers agent who works for a fee from you, but that isn't common (and I'm not sure how it works) so I'll ignore it. There are closing costs, but they are not a percentage in general.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by akomtu on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:22PM (#26880024)
Without a buyer agent, the buyer can get a 3% discount on the sale price.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ipaddr on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:46AM (#26874561)
If the seller pays the buyer is the actual one who pays.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by bluGill on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:04AM (#26874832)
In this case that isn't true because the seller is paying out of the full value of the house. When realtors decide give a discount (ie when working for a friend, or other marketing), the seller gets more money and the buyer doesn't see any difference.

There are other ways of looking at it where you are correct.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by FredPret on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:21AM (#26875863)
This could partly due to an aging population. People hold on to assets longer, getting more appreciation before they sell to the younger generations.

It’ll balance out when our lifespans max out somewhere (perhaps never?), and productivity is improving with technology as well, likely helping the situation somewhat.

This is not the only factor however.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by dslkfjg on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:51AM (#26873885)
Population is going down in the developed world. The housing supply is not. If you can't afford housing where you live, then it can only be because more people are demanding housing where you live, having left where they were previously living.

The solution to the "problem of home ownership" is to stop making areas undesirable places to live. Portland springs to mind but there's San Fran. NYC, L.A. but it's not just the Big Blue cities in the US and elsewhere, it's nations run by totalitarians everywhere.

The solution is to export prosperity around the world. Then we can all enjoy the benefits of the developed world's population crash which translates into cheaper housing, amongst other things, both good and bad.

Since The Economist is looking everywhere for the West's biggest mistake, today's their lucky day, I happen to have it right here.

The West should have demanded of China and every other non-democratic regime in the world, as a condition of receiving manufacturing and industries and the privilege of importing their products duty-free, that they liberalize their political systems in ways which are hard to reverse.

This had the power to transform regions from Mexico and Central America to China.

We could have created a schedule of increasingly substantive requirements composed of democratic institutions, free speech and political assembly, (truly) free markets and anti-corruption metrics which had to be met in order to benefit from trade with the West. But we didn't.

We didn't because a small group of industry beneficiaries made small and large fortunes by outsourcing the West's industrialization. They leveraged the lack of environmental and labor standards endured by the world's poor, living under corrupt and totalitarian regimes, to lower the cost of goods sold then sell back into the first world at first world prices.

That's what the elite have been doing since Clinton gave China MFN status and even before.

Now no one in the West can afford the most basic thing every mammal requires- a place of their own. A home. A burrow. A nest. A place to which they can retreat, which they can control and experience sheer animal comfort and safety. Now even that has to go to satiate the boundless greed of our elites.

The only thing left for them to come after is reproduction. We should probably also start thinking about turning our mates over to them, since they can provide for them better than we can.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by kwere on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:12AM (#26874124)
dont fool yourself, big capital always preferred "pragmatic" regimes over accountable democracies.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:05PM (#26879720)
Yes, phrased differently: investment money chooses stability and predictability over human rights.

Good macroeconomic policy (like international trade agreements) can be used to push back against this trend somewhat.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by splithalf on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:33AM (#26874411)
That’s like the point.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by LordDragonfang on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @02:57PM (#26879540)
>That's what the elite have been doing since Clinton gave China MFN status and even before.

Indeed, well before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by lormayna on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:23AM (#26874269)
You are lucky, in Italy the average net salary is around 1400€/months and a 2 bedroom flat costs between 150k and 200k euro outside big cities. So you need at least 12 years of full working to repay your house.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by kumarvvr on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:28AM (#26872128)
This. I'm from India, and the most important goal for any salaried person in India, is to own a piece of land. Maybe 150 - 200 square yards (decently sized to build a 3 bedroom house). And that land is not seen as an expense, but as an investment. An investment to be handed over to children.

And usually, families try to buy about 1 plot of land for each child typically.

I think that, no matter where you are in the world, land is an important asset. A place to live, a house to cover your head, reduces a lot of stress in life.

In India, there are three things considered first and foremost in life "Roti, Kapda Makaan".

Roti - Food Kapda - Clothing Makaaan - House.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by blueblisters on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:15AM (#26872764)
A curious phenomenon I have noticed only in India is that rental yields tend to be much lower than any other country. Arguably, if renting is so cheap, it makes more sense to rent than own a house, unless property is expected to appreciate in value indefinitely.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by kumarvvr on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:00AM (#26873001)
Most homes are purchased for the purpose of living in them. Additionally, monthly rental income is less than a quarter of loan payments, assuming 80% of total is taken as loan, which is true in most cases.

Loan tenures are about 25 years, so most families take a home and pay the loans during their active service life.

About 10 or 15 years down the line, one or two floors are added to tge house, for rental purpose. Here too, rental is less than half of construction cost. Again, intent is for very long term appreciation of the asset, rather than a passive income source.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by andrepd on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:03AM (#26874013)
> Most homes are purchased for the purpose of living in them.

[citation needed]

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by dslkfjg on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:46AM (#26874569)
The number of people who buy homes to live in them greatly exceeds the number of people who buy homes as investments. That seems obvious to me. The only way most housing could be investment property is if investment vehicles each had so many houses, literally tens or hundreds of thousands, that their total ownership exceeded that of ordinary people .

As it turns out, this is not the case:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/187576/housing-units-occ...

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @12:10PM (#26876597)
Perhaps the parent is suggesting that people might only buy because it's also an investment and would otherwise rent?

FTSE100 appears to have doubled in 20 years, my house in a poor UK city has quadrupled in value. Starting wages have increased by about 70%.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by kumarvvr on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:25AM (#26874300)
I myself am an example, so is everyone in my social circle.

edit: Also Myth 5 in the following article.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/et-explains/six-my...

Edit 2: An 1800 sft, duplex house, built in a 150 square yard property, cost about Rs. 13 million. And that is in a city like Hyderabad. Costs about double that in Bangalore, the top IT city in India and probably more in a city like Mumbai & New Delhi.

An average salary of an IT employee, with about 10 years of experience is about Rs. 3 million per year. Banks give a loan of about Rs. 10 million on that house, and employees usually source the remaining amount from further loans or high interest borrowings. Cumulatively, with current interest rates (have been stable for a decade now), EMI on a 13 million loan is about 0.13 million per month, meaning more than half of an employees salary, 1.56 million, goes to EMI payments.

Average rental value for that property is about Rs. 25000 per month, or Rs. 0.3 million per year. So hardly enough for covering EMI. Tenure on the loan is usually 20 to 30 years.

So, for most families, with wife and husband working, owning one house is within reach, but two is beyond capacity. With so much of income going to EMI, most choose to stay in the house rather than rent it out.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by kumarvvr on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:03AM (#26873027)
One reason for less rentals, is the cultural norm of home ownership, which is often seen as a very reliable and solid sign of income stability.

Another reason is lack teeth in laws that implement rental agreements. In fact, most owners hardly take any rental agreements or leases.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by solarkraft on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:41AM (#26872900)
Yeah, but one doesn't want to rent because owning a home is an investment ... and that's how we end up with the price :-)

This must be great for people who like to move around a lot.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by yosito on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:44AM (#26872913)
> Owning your own home is, in my view, the first step towards financial freedom.

I don't disagree with you, but owning your own home can also be a step towards financial ruin if you choose the wrong home. I know a few people who bought homes that they ended up losing huge amounts of money on and selling a few years later. Beyond that, it's also a commitment that comes with a huge opportunity cost. If I buy I house in Texas and later there's an opportunity in Oregon, I've got to deal with the house first before I can take the opportunity in Oregon. Lastly, the math doesn't always add up. Sometimes it makes more financial sense to rent (at least temporarily) than to own, but you have to do the math for your own situation.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by pc86 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:11AM (#26873090)
> and selling a few years later

That might be part of the problem? It's extremely rare to make a profit selling a home less than 5 years after you bought it even in good-but-not-insane markets. Basically unheard of in under 3 years in not-insane markets. If the market slips you're easily looking at 7-8 years to break even. The math of a six-figure, three-decade loan just doesn't support quick flips even just to break even, and most people are way too proud to sell something for break even 5 years after they bought. Add in maintenance and it's easy to see how if you let that slip you can be on the losing end of a sale even 5-6 years later.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by jcadam on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:41AM (#26873279)
Just sold a house in FL I bought in 2019. Realized I made a mistake in buying it - luckily the absolutely insane housing market right now in FL allowed me to get out without losing my shirt.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Hamuko on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:03AM (#26873450)
The housing market feels insane here as well. If my apartment fetches the same price per square metre as what other apartments in my area of the same age are listed for, my apartment would sell for like 30,000 € more today than what I paid for it like two years ago.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by yosito on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:25AM (#26873178)
Sure, you're correct. But there are many things that can force you to sell a house and take a loss.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by JansjoFromIkea on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:50AM (#26873340)
to what extent is this factoring in the cost of rent? If I barely broke even on a sale after 5 years without accounting for the savings of not paying 5 years rent I'd be pretty happy with that exchange tbh.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by CuriouslyC on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:37AM (#26874465)
Depends on if you use a realtor to sell, if you get lucky in terms of unexpected maintenance, if you do any work on it yourself, and how much rentals cost in your area. It's not hard to make a short term profit as long as you keep realtors and contractors out of the mix.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by VBprogrammer on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:57AM (#26872986)
Personally I feel like buying housing, at least in the UK, makes a lot of sense. However, I have a friend who is currently in that kind of situation where it's certainly made me think twice.

She bought a new built flat about 5 years ago in the outskirts of London. Following the Grenfell disaster it has gotten caught up in the inspections for fire safety and is now practically worthless until ~£70k worth of remedial works are carried out. She cannot remortgage it, she can't rent it out and she can't sell it. Pretty nasty scenario.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by XorNot on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:08PM (#26883177)
Apartments have always been kind of a sucker's deal compared to houses though. Houses in almost any condition can still be worth a ton, because you the owner have complete control over the state of the building on the land (including, knock it down and put a new one in).
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:49PM (#26883533)
that because the laws in UK basically turn a apartment ownership into a indentured servitude - you pay 100 years of rent for the privilege of being bound to the place, taking the cost of any remedial works, having no stake in the land and on the hook for ground rent and any feed the management company dreams up

In Czech Republic you actually own a share of the whole building and the land it stands on.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by keerk43 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:32AM (#26887243)
Owning a share of the building has its own issues as well though. If your neighbours suck and don't care about maintaining the building adequately, then you're basically out of luck. Even worse, at least here in Finland some older apartment buildings in smaller cities are worth too little to get funding from bank for larger renovations, effectively making them impossible to do unless every tenant is capable and willing of getting a personal loan.

I will never buy an apartment from reasons mentioned above. Just way too risky, at least with my own house it would be up to me what gets done and what doesn't.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:55AM (#26887424)
Certainly its a difficult subject, but I prefer owning something, rather than leasehold "renting for 100 years" as if we still have feudalism
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by VBprogrammer on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @02:58PM (#26893985)
Freehold is one thing on a block of flats. The poor people who got conned into buying a house on a freehold basis where the legal protection for rent increases doesn't apply. That is a different matter.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by andrepd on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:56AM (#26873939)
The fundamental problem is linking "home as a place to live" and "home as an investment". The two things aren't compatible.

If you want to buy a place to live so you don't have to work for a Lord, you want affordable housing. If you have a property which you want to be an investment, you want housing prices to baloon.

Currently the latter is winning.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by AlexandrB on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:37AM (#26874462)
This. Contrary to this article, I think the biggest policy mistake was turning home ownership into an investment/retirement strategy. In the last 10 years, services like AirBnB have only accelerated the problem.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ARandomerDude on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:37AM (#26874460)
Since you know that, go with the market. Sell your house every 2-3 years while it's hot and make money. When things slow down, stay in your house and enjoy it.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Glyptodon on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:46PM (#26880436)
I don't think there's a way to unlink so long as there are particularly desirable and undesirable places to live.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by andrepd on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:16PM (#26883259)
There are way yes, such as Georgism or Socialism. They require rethinking some things and shaking some powerbases, so that's why they appear impossible.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by swiley on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:31AM (#26875176)
You could have both if dense housing was allowed to be built and people bought condos.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by bradlys on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:45AM (#26876190)
How? If an asset goes up in value then that means someone is paying more for it at the end of the day. Thus, it’s less affordable...

If your argument is about splitting up land use by building higher, it still is true. At the end of the day, that land became more expensive and you are less able to purchase the land.

Appreciating asset and affordability are opposites by definition.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by swiley on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @02:35PM (#26879022)
You're less able to purchase the same size of land but size really isn't that interesting unless you're planning to farm it.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by akomtu on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:27PM (#26880123)
Another solution is a ban on new office buildings in areas with insufficient housing supply. Right now the corps happily build new offices in cities that are already overcrowded to the tilt, and the city councils turn a blind eye to this. I realize that such a law would have no sponsors.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by pdimitar on Sunday April 25, 2021 @07:17AM (#26931902)
This started becoming bigger and bigger problem in Sofia (capital of Bulgaria, in the Balkan Peninsula, Eastern Europe). I live for 20 years here and now I want to get out because almost every plot of land eventually gets filled with the same faceless concrete and glass block that the office buildings are.

Aesthetic sentiments aside, those office buildings bring stress to the local infrastructure in many ways.

One win however is that local businesses that serve food and drinks at least survive which is not a small win during COVID-19 times.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by deepstack on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:37AM (#26873735)
Upvote!

Private property ownership and intergenerational wealth transfer is the foundation of middle class, and bigger middle class leads to better education for the masses, and a more democratic society!

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by garduque on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:11AM (#26875745)
Like I tell my wife, we are working to pay off our house (and hopefully another soon) for our kids, not for us. Sure I could rent and maybe there are benefits to that in a short term view, but in a generational view there are huge benefits to my children if I am able to give each of them a house (to live in or sell and buy another, I don't care) and then they are able to make things better for their kids, etc.

Add up all the money you have spent on rent and mortgage payments and pretend it just never happened. It's life changing to have that.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by bradlys on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:48AM (#26876235)
Why do people want intergenerational wealth transfer? Anytime we talk about billionaires passing down large sums of money to their children and creating dynasties out of it - it’s a bad thing. Yet, middle class to upper middle class does it and it’s a good thing?

I see it as problematic. Keeps the ground unlevel.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Viliam1234 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:08PM (#26880825)
If you rent your house instead of buying it, it only means that someone else is passing their money to their kids. I mean, ultimately, someone owns the house, even if that person is not you, right?

An interesting solution is to decouple the price of the house from the price of the land it stands on, and then the government could rent the land and use that income instead of other taxes. Better description of this idea is here:

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-progr...

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ckdarby on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:43AM (#26887337)
To allow the next generation the luxury of not being priced entirely out of the market.

The difference as you go down the wealth classes hits a point of, being able to afford a home at all or never being able to purchase a home.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by tallon on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:42PM (#26880358)
I guess it's something you don't understand if you don't want/have kids.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by sn9 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:52PM (#26884505)
That may have been historically true, but that's also because people have historically not relied on much better investment vehicles.

Historically, housing has actually been a poor investment relative to investing in the stock market. Most people simply didn't know how or whether to invest, but nowadays investment vehicles like index funds and target date funds make that relatively straightforward.

We should be discouraging housing as investment so affordable housing can be a thing that exists and the housing market can respond to demand by building out the supply at levels people can afford while also encouraging people to sock away at least 5-15% of every paycheck into passively managed investment vehicles that have way higher long term returns than housing ever did.

The current situation is that we subsidize the middle and upper classes in terms of housing at the expense of the poor and those just starting out by artificially and unnecessarily pushing up the price of housing and constraining supply.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by jjav on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @02:48AM (#26886164)
> housing has actually been a poor investment relative to investing in the stock market

Even if you wanted to think of housing as an investment, it should be compared not to the stock market but to the lifelong cost of renting, since it's one or the other (unless you plan to be homeless).

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by mariodiana on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:51AM (#26874643)
Plus, when a 100-year pandemic hits and people flee the nearby metropolitan area for your upstate town, waving wads of cash and bidding up prices, and your landlady decides she'd like to get in on the action and put up for sale the house you live in, so on top of all the other stress and uncertainty of living through a 100-year pandemic you can also wonder where you're going to find a new place to live, you'll thank your lucky stars you never made the mistake of becoming a homeowner.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by RobertoG on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:33AM (#26872518)
>>"Owning your own home is, in my view, the first step towards financial freedom."

I totally agree. It's obvious to me that home ownership is what allows the existence of a "middle class". That makes it a target for some interests.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by kiba on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:04AM (#26873452)
Owning a home as a form of wealth necessarily conflict with affordability. We need to consider one or the other in order to make the best use of land, which are finite.

If we choose to make having a home a priority, then we need to choose affordability both so that people are less likely to be homeless and so that people can do other thing with their money.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by dslkfjg on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:57AM (#26874742)
If you have been watching California's experiments with homelessness, especially San Fran. you may have learned that homeless people prefer being homeless even when given free accomodations and when i say accomodations I mean nice hotel rooms of their own.

This is because homelessness is a side-effect of mental illness and drug addiction. The later is not all drug addiction, ( I used to live next to an "invisible" heroin addict which we only learned about when he OD'd) it's a certain type of disorganized-thinking and lifestyle which some addicts manifest.

The cost of housing doesn't cause homelessness; it causes roommates and the conflicts and violence and chaos that imposes on people's lives which is significant if under-studied.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by bluGill on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:12AM (#26874113)
Not true. A house is a form of wealth because you live there. If you don't own a house you need to rent someplace. If you live in the house long enough you pay it off and live there rent free!

The above assumes that you actually pay the house off of course. Many people don't.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by akomtu on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:39PM (#26880327)
No, you don't get to live in "your" house rent free. About 3% of the house value per year goes to property taxes, repairs, utility bills, grass lawn maintenance, hoa dues, insurance and so on. A paid off house is like a brokerage account with insane fees and liability.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by jjav on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:45PM (#26881392)
The cost of owning a house needs to always be compared to the alternative. By owning, the principal+interest payment disappears when it is paid off. Sure you continue paying other expenses. If you rent, you pay the full and increasing market rate, forever.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by jjav on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:42PM (#26881341)
> Owning a home as a form of wealth necessarily conflict with affordability.

It's impossible for a home to not be wealth, unless somehow infinite houses could be built for free.

So an argument can be had on how much wealth it should be and who gets to define that, but it is inescapable that it has some value.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by chriswarbo on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:48AM (#26872600)
I think it's reasonable to argue against (such a heavy emphasis) on home ownership; but it has to apply equally.

Everyone striving to own a home is a consistent scenario, which has pros and cons.

Social housing that's owned by nobody/everybody is a consistent scenario, which has pros and cons.

Having some paying rent to others who own (or, even worse, have buy-to-let mortgages), is inherently unjust.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by chii on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:13AM (#26873526)
> inherently unjust.

Why is it inherently unjust? The owner paid to have the building constructed. That took upfront capital. Asking the renter to pay for the use of this capital doesn't sound unjust to me.

Is renting out a car you purchased inherently unjust?

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by neilparikh on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:49AM (#26873856)
> The owner paid to have the building constructed.

Much of the rent paid in big cities is not for the construction or maintenance costs, but the land value. Did the owner construct the land?

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by chii on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:22AM (#26874253)
> Did the owner construct the land?

The land itself had to be acquired somehow. The very first owner paid for an army to take the land from the indigenous population that "owned" it, and that "cost" is a chain that is linked all the way to today (and at every step of the transaction, somebody profits by increasing the price a bit).

So either you raise another army today (at an even greater cost) to acquire the land, or you pay the asking price from the current owners.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by throwaway316943 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:53AM (#26874678)
It’s not just the acquisition of the land but also the investment in the economy that surrounds the land. All land starts out near worthless and in the middle of no where. Generations of sacrifice and investment are what turns it into a highly valuable property. That process can also reverse if the owner ceases to improve the property and invest in the community.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @12:23PM (#26876794)
>All land starts out near worthless and in the middle of no where. //

No. People don't raise armies to steal land that's worthless. If you're going back to pre-history then the land near a nice river that has plenty of game, isn't predated by larger animals, and has nice fruit trees is worth way more to a person than some section of desert.

If right to live on land also goes with rights to exploit resources beneath the land then disparities in value as you approach the industrial era become massive.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by throwaway316943 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @02:29PM (#26878913)
How much of that intrinsic value is still there once everything is paved?
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Viliam1234 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:44PM (#26881373)
There is a concept called "path dependence". Something may be important to get you from point A to point B, even if at point B you perhaps don't use it at all.

You start with a place with nice fruit trees near the river, then a few people build their houses there, then someone builds roads and a port, then someone builds larger houses, then someone builds factories... and at some moment in the future, there is a huge city, but the river is poluted and the trees were cut down.

There is another place with no trees and no river. Hundred years later, there is no city.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Smaug123 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @01:18PM (#26877536)
That's what Georgism is about: fully separating those two concepts. The land is valuable because of the community; the property is valuable because of its owner. So under Georgism, all land is held under common ownership, with the land's value being entirely taxed away from its occupier, allowing you to profit personally only by improving the property and supplying value to others thereby.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by throwaway316943 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @02:30PM (#26878926)
No thanks.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Smaug123 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:54PM (#26881517)
A shot in the dark here, but I assume you own land? ;)
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by throwaway316943 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:34PM (#26883417)
I do and I also respect others property rights. Communal ownership and responsibility should only cover those things for which there are no other options, even then they are hard enough to deal with.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Smaug123 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:28AM (#26886422)
Under Georgism, you have the right to all the property you want. It just classes land as (I think?) the only thing which is "not property".
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by neilparikh on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:41AM (#26874510)
Your initial claim was about the situation being just. This argument explains why and what situation we have, but you've done nothing to explain why it's just. "Raise another army or pay the price" is hardly a ringing endorsement of the fairness of the system.

The key thing to note is that this isn't the only model of land ownership possible. There are other that are more fair (land value taxes and community land trusts for example).

To be clear, I don't really have anything against individual landowners; it's the system that's unjust.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by frockington1 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:27AM (#26874315)
No but he bought it when others did not. Envy is rarely going to yield better results
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by chriswarbo on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:38AM (#26874476)
> Why is it inherently unjust?

Heh, I wasn't taking a position on renting versus ownership. I said there are pros and cons of both.

What is unjust is to advocate for renting, if that rent will go to an owner/landlord. After all, why should owners/landlords exist at all, if renting is apparently so good?

Social housing avoids this hypocrisy, since the "owner" is not a person (or person-surrogate, like a corporation).

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:58AM (#26874753)
> Social housing avoids this hypocrisy, since the "owner" is not a person (or person-surrogate, like a corporation).

Like the housing projects in the inner cities?

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:52AM (#26890409)
> Like the housing projects in the inner cities?

The problem with US housing projects isn’t that they are social housing but that they are deliberate concentration of the poor (and therefore also marginalized, as those are correlated), with the same consequences that always has, whether or not it involves social housing.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by chriswarbo on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:22AM (#26886764)
Based on my (very limited) understanding of inner city housing projects in the USA, then yes.

AFAIK those planning such projects did not themselves live in social housing (unlike, say, many soviet officials), hence there's still an element of hypocrisy there (note that I never claimed otherwise; I specifically chose the word "this" in the sentence you've quoted. I'll also re-re-state that I've not made any argument for or against home ownership or renting)

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:48AM (#26890363)
The problem is, the housing projects ended up being a major contributor to gangs in the cities. Growing up, "the projects" was a common euphemism for gang-infested ghettos, even though that likely was only true for a small portion of the projects.

See here, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidized_housing_in_the_Unit...

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by chriswarbo on Thursday April 22, 2021 @05:34AM (#26900668)
Yes, there are pros and cons; hence why I haven't argued for or against any approach to housing (although I have been arguing against the hypocricy of someone advocating for an approach that they don't themselves follow, like non-renting landlords having renters)
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by effie on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:31AM (#26873668)
What is "financial freedom"? You still have to work, use state currency, pay taxes. Did you mean owning your own home is the first step towards being wealthy?
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by sumtechguy on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:20AM (#26874233)
I can take a stab at that.

I paid off a house a few years ago. My flexibility with work and money went way up. I personally went from 10k CC debt and a house mortgage to well over a million in assets and rotating debt (for points) in a very short period of time. I did not really change my lifestyle at all. I went from planning out how to buy small items (which is normal BTW) to mostly 'do no think too much about it'.

Financial freedom was once put to me by an interesting 'when you feel like it' ladder. 1 eat whatever you want 2 buy whatever cloths you like 3 buy nice electronics whenever you feel like it 4 buy a used car with cash 5 buy a nice used car with cash 6 buy a nice new car with cash 7 travel whenever you like, and stay at an OK hotel 8 travel wherever you like, and stay at a nice resort 9 ...

I am somewhere between 5 and 6 now. Had a bit of a setback and slid back to 4/5 a few years ago. 5/6 is normal for my point in life I am at with my income. If I had less income that ladder is slower to go up. Also as you go up cash becomes less of 'how do I get more' and more 'how do I use this to buy me time'. My level up to 5/6 only happened because I paid off that house. My setback is because of a choice to move somewhere else.

But think about it this way. Whatever your rent/mortgage is. Think of having that amount of extra cash per month. Think how quickly you could use that to level up if you kept a similar lifestyle you have now.

Financial freedom is a matter of perspective on how you view material wealth. Some people never feel free because they are always looking to ladder up. Some people are fine at the low levels because they see material wealth as a burden.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by willcipriano on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:40AM (#26873764)
Here's what owning my home has meant for me.

I live in a high COL area, when I moved out when I was 20 rent was more than half of my income. I'd get raises but my rent would continue to climb. 5 years ago I bought a house, my rent stopped climbing. Now I can't even get a apartment for 125% of my mortgage and that is without a yard, with neighbors a half inch of sheet rock away, and no equity.

This means that while yes I still have to work, it isn't the end of the world that I get fired or miss a promotion. I no longer need to push hard to drive up my income like I did when I was in a apartment. So now I have more options, when a PM screws the pooch and misses a requirement I attend my daughters soccer game as planned instead of staying late.

If that isn't freedom I don't know what is.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by bluGill on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:09AM (#26874084)
Enough savings that you don't worry about little things. I just had to fix a wheel bearing on my car $700 later (my mechanic replaced the brakes and a few other small things while in the area) - not a large thing, but for many people that is more than they have saved up.

There are safety nets for big things - not always good ones, but they exist everywhere and so when something major goes wrong you can count on some help. However there are a lot of little things that are both far more likely to go wrong, and also things that it is harder to get help with from any sort of safety net.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by Glyptodon on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:49PM (#26880493)
I think it's usually defined as being well off enough to curse out your boss and/or quit when they make unreasonable demands without having to think twice.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by __turbobrew__ on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:57AM (#26886597)
Also known as “fuck you money”
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by blacktriangle on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:36AM (#26873248)
Welcome to the NWO: "You'll own nothing and like it"
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by simonh on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:51AM (#26873876)
The problem is not the practice of home ownership, it is the _policy_ of massively subsidising home ownership through regulations and tax breaks, while also isolating it from actual market forces such as by blocking increased supply. The article is specifically arguing against those policies, not home ownership itself. If you want to own property because you believe in free market capitalism that's fine, I happen to also own my own home, but the current home ownership system in much of the West is a government created stitch up. I'm lucky to have benefited from it, but my children will suffer.

The 'they' you rail against who are amassing properties as massively subsidised wealth accumulators are exactly who this article is arguing against. Deregulate, open up the markets and let people decide on their investments of choice in a competitive environment. Are you really arguing that?

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by StevePerkins on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:30AM (#26874362)
In the United Status, the tax break on mortgage interest was effectively eliminated during the previous administration (by the Republicans, ironically enough).

When you file taxes, you can take the "standard deduction" that everyone gets. A downward adjustment to the amount of your income that is taxable. Or you can "itemize" your various tax breaks, if they add up to a total greater than the standard deduction.

Historically, home ownership has been "subsidized" in the sense that the interest one pays on mortgage loans is one of the things that can be itemized. And historically, that was usually enough to push you above the standard deduction amount.

But now, the standard deduction amount has been raised to such a high level that only the wealthy and very upper-middle class have any reason to itemize anymore. Typical mortgages now are no longer enough to get you any special treatment on taxes, beyond a renter who also takes the standard deduction.

Of course, this outdated talking point will probably stick around for years, though...

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by norswap on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:40AM (#26873770)
Reminds me of this recent book review on "Georgism", an economic doctrine that states that land ownership is responsible for most of capitalism's evil: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-progr...

Interestingly, Georgism agrees with you: the problem is that since land appreciates in value (as the supply is fixed and demand increases), there is an incentive to hoard it speculatively. George proposes a high land tax to negate land appreciation, and make it so it is only profitable to own land if it is effectively used (to live or to produce on).

Having corporations own land instead of individuals is just about the worse compromise that can be made.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by iudqnolq on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:30AM (#26874361)
Georgism has interesting extensions. I see the core point as things that were originally allocated arbitrarily/with force should be taxed highly. If your ancestor was a knight who seized some land by force you should have to compensate the rest of society to keep it.

You can extend it to pollution. Polluting is taking some of a common resource (the environment) from everyone else, so polluters should compensate society proportionately.

You could even extend it to network effects in tech. If you have users just because you were first and made it hard to leave, that's something unearned you took from society that you should compensate us for. I think this one is more of a stretch and sadly probably wrong.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ganafagol on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:41PM (#26882158)
Inheritance of large wealth like a $1M+ home is the first step to inequality of opportunity in a society. Get as rich as you want, but for the next generation there needs to be a reset (beyond a reasonable threshold), otherwise you just end up with family dynasties. May be fantastic for the involved individuals, but ends horribly for society. Usually with a revolution after a few generations.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by heliodor on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:41AM (#26874508)
Owning your shelter makes sense.

The problem starts when people view their homes as financial investments instead of lifestyle security.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by janekm on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:37AM (#26873739)
Having to pay >60% of monthly salary on a mortgage for the next 25 years isn't exactly my definition of financial freedom. If the market crashes you have no freedom to move for opportunities elsewhere.

Here in London, rent is <50% of mortgage payments on an equivalent property.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by mustyoshi on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:43AM (#26873799)
”60% monthly salary on a mortgage"

I think everyone would agree that that is not financial freedom, but it's commonly accepted and taught that your rent/mortgage shouldn't be more than 30% of your take home.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by janekm on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @12:14PM (#26876655)
That was my poorly made point, indeed... It can be more sensible from a financial freedom point of view to rent at 30% of take-home pay than mortgage at 60%.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:55PM (#26883584)
for some people that 30% is literally impossible in a major city
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by jjk166 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @02:56PM (#26879516)
Around here a mortgage plus taxes is quite a bit less than rent for a comparable square footage and year of construction. Rent should be more than mortgage as you are paying your landlord's mortgage plus the overhead of renting it out. Even if your landlord has held the property for a long time, they should take out new mortgages and invest the money rather than let it sit idle. There are some markets where the demand to rent is not coupled to the demand to buy, but this highly atypical.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by soarfourmore on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:41AM (#26873779)
> Having to pay >60% of monthly salary

I moved to a MCOL city where my mortgage is <20%. my salary

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by neilparikh on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:56AM (#26873936)
Your comment is a massive strawman of the article.

The core problem is that once you have a majority of the population owning an asset, they're incentivized to pull the ladder up behind them, and make it difficult for the non-landed to also buy the asset, to make the value of their asset go up.

> Owning your own home is, in my view, the first step towards financial freedom.

Sure, for those lucky enough to be able to buy a home before it gets too expensive. What about those not lucky enough to do so? Do they not deserve financial freedom?

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by bena on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:01AM (#26873985)
Uh, if I buy a property, yeah, I kind of want to make it difficult for someone else to buy it. Seeing as I seek to own it long enough to live on it.

There is nothing about the previous "landed" status of my neighbors that will affect the value of my property. Not to mention, if you're seeking to reside, not speculate, the "value" of the property is kinda immaterial.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by neilparikh on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:17AM (#26874191)
> There is nothing about the previous "landed" status of my neighbors that will affect the value of my property.

Suppose everyone who wanted to had the ability to own land in New York (obviously not possible geometrically, but for sake of argument). Do you think that property in New York would still be worth the same?

Land only has a buying price/rent because there is an unmet demand. This is a principle economists realized centuries ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_rent

> Not to mention, if you're seeking to reside, not speculate, the "value" of the property is kinda immaterial.

The modern property ownership system basically forces homeowners to be speculators. If you have to pay hundreds of thousands (or even millions!) to buy a home, are you really going to be okay if it takes a massive hit (or doesn't go up in value as much as expected)?

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by bena on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:22AM (#26875877)
The problem is that it's not logistically possible. The very thing you want us to ignore for the sake of argument is the crux of the issue.

New York is a port. Ports become cities, because access to the rest of the area is kind of needed to access the rest of the area. Ports are valuable.

> If you have to pay hundreds of thousands (or even millions!) to buy a home, are you really going to be okay if it takes a massive hit (or doesn't go up in value as much as expected)?

Unrealized losses aren't real losses. It's one of the things that confuses me about cars as well. I buy a car, I drive it for as long as possible. I'm not looking to resell it. Same with property. As long as when I sell it, I'm not losing money to sell it, I'm good. Because I'm not selling to make money, I'm selling to divest myself of the obligation of ownership for some reason.

And it's important to note that I said that I'm not losing money to sell it. If I owe on it, I want to sell it for enough to cover that and any closing costs on my end. Other than that, I don't really care. I'm not a real estate investor.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by neilparikh on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @06:18AM (#26887549)
> New York is a port. Ports become cities, because access to the rest of the area is kind of needed to access the rest of the area. Ports are valuable.

Sorry, I'm completely lost as to your point here. My point is simply that land is valuable because it is scarce, and its value is the difference in productivity between the given land and the best free land. From that, it follows that if land values are high, there's a massive difference in productivity between high value land and the best free land.

> Other than that, I don't really care. I'm not a real estate investor.

It's great that you don't but your view isn't the majority view. Homeownership is considered as a way to build wealth for the middle class, and this view is pervasive. This is pretty much said all the time, everywhere ("homeownership wealth", "intergenerational wealth", "buying a home is a good investment" etc.), by both politicians and the finance industry, so I'm surprised you don't think this is the case.

I'll give a concrete example though. A member of Parliament responsible for housing policy (Adam Vaughan) was asked if a 10% drop in house prices (after a year of ~30% rises) would be acceptable, and his answer was no, because "We know that Canadians rely on home ownership to secure their place in the economy now, but also as they retire". I doubt his view his uncommon either. He's simply stating what homeowners (who are the majority) think.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by bena on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:13AM (#26889204)
Ports are valuable, that makes the land that make up the ports valuable. Geography matters. New York would still be valuable because it's in a valuable situation.

Because housing security is also inherently valuable.

Also, what's to make the words of Canadian parliament the truth? Does he not have a vested interest in a certain outcome? Residential home owners aren't looking to "wealth" when they buy a house. They're looking for residence.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by dionidium on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:11AM (#26874111)
Uh, if I buy a property, yeah, I kind of want to make it difficult for someone else to buy it. Seeing as I seek to own it long enough to live on it.

You can make the property you own hard to buy or easy to buy; that's obviously up to you. The problem is that landowners pass laws that make it difficult for prospective owners to buy any property or for current owners to build new units on the land they already own. This is fundamentally illegitimate, but unfortunately it's very popular.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by bena on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:24AM (#26875919)
I was being cheeky because the way he framed it, it seemed like he was saying that making it difficult for someone to take your property is a bad thing.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by bluGill on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:17AM (#26874192)
Renting and buying can both turn out well depending on your individual circumstances. If you buy you eventually have a house rent free. However if your rent you probably spend less on rent - so invest that difference and you end up with about the same.

With real estate "location location location". In some areas there are situations that will make one or the other better. Everybody has their own life goals, and that in turn will feed into what is better for you.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by jjav on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @02:57AM (#26886225)
> if your rent you probably spend less on rent

For a while, usually yes. Long term, no chance.

A mortgage can only ever go down. Rents most of the time only go up.

My mortgage was initially over 3K while rent had been ~1.5K. But years later, those equivalent rents are ~5K and my mortgage is under $1K. In a couple decades when I'm retired, who know how high those rents will be? But I know exactly what my mortgage will be, $0.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by daemin on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @03:34PM (#26880233)
One thing people seem to skip over is that once you have bought a house you will still need to pay many fees. Just owning a house isn't free, there will be property taxes, fees for services, and other actions that require money from you. In a lot of cases when renting these are taken care of by the landlord.

So just the rent vs mortgage comparison (or rent vs no rent) is misleading at best, downright fraudulent at worst.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by milkytron on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:08PM (#26881708)
> In a lot of cases when renting these are taken care of by the landlord.

The thing is, a landlord isn't likely to continue renting out if they're losing money. Typically, the money for services, maintenance, etc. comes from rent.

The renter is indirectly paying for those, otherwise the landlord would be out of business.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by daemin on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:52AM (#26886953)
Yes, the landlord is paying for those things out of the rent, but as another commenter has stated my point is that you cannot make a direct Rent to Mortgage comparison. As there are many other costs you end up paying as a home owner which you don't worry about when you're a renter.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by jjav on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:01AM (#26886253)
> In a lot of cases when renting these are taken care of by the landlord.

Approximately never are any of those costs taken care of by the landlord! The renter is paying for them, plus a profit margin for the landlord. That's what rent is. The landlord isn't running a charity.

Only exception is if you luck into a rental by someone who paid off the property long ago and doesn't care to charge market prices for it.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:03AM (#26886271)
GP seemed to use “taken care of by rhe landlord” to mean “bundled with the rent, and not a separate fee on top”, which is relevant to cost comparisons based only on purchase/finance cost vs rent cost.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by cannabis_sam on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @02:23PM (#26878756)
> Downvote away but i strongly believe this concept is horrible.

You are absolutely correct, mate.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by throwaway316943 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:06AM (#26873470)
Literally rent seeking, they want to turn the West into Saudi Arabia, essentially a techno-feudalism with debt slavery.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by jariel on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:08AM (#26873064)
I'm down-voting you because you haven't made an argument in the face of the issue.

The flaw the assumption is that somehow 'buying' a home that is 15x your annual salary, that takes your entire life to pay off, is some kind of 'freedom'.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ajxs on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:00AM (#26873980)
What's a reasonable alternative, just pay someone else's mortgage instead? Go live in the woods and opt out of the economy entirely?

A mortgage is debt, yes. However the money you put into the mortgage is wealth that you're slowly accruing. If you're just renting a property someone else owns you're not accruing anything at all. No one thinks that taking on a 20-30 year debt is a good thing. People only do it out of necessity.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by mikem170 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:54PM (#26881533)
> What's a reasonable alternative

Housing that costs half as much as it does today, and doesn't grow faster than consumer price inflation?

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by ajxs on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:32PM (#26883906)
What's a reasonable alternative that an individual can make today? The economic pressures that compel individuals to purchase or rent expensive property are ever-present. I agree with you that some kind of systemic regulation is probably necessary to alleviate the current state of the housing market in world cities. Holding out for political change is not a viable solution however. For a prospective owner, the longer you wait to purchase the harder it will be.
Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by jariel on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:22AM (#26874256)
I'm not offering an alternative, I'm pointing out the OP didn't make an argument, or rather one that wasn't based on any reasoning.

"just pay someone else's mortgage instead?" - it has nothing to do with what the owner of the property is doing with their money. If rent is a more viable option, then rent.

Ontario, Canada has a soft kind of rent control that works somewhat well for renting, that's an option.

Including housing in inflation calculations would be another 'option' because very low interest rates create bubbles.

Focusing on affordability in zoning.

Taxing rental income.

Taxing homes sales over a certain price.

Increasing or reducing property taxes.

There are a million variables to make the housing situation work better and crude 'own vs. rent' statements without arguments are not going to help.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by JayPeaEm on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:44AM (#26873299)
Agreed.

I think they're only looking at it from a financial freedom point of view. But I, too, don't see a 30-year keeps-with-inflation anchor as freedom.

Re:Home ownership is the West’s biggest economic-policy mistake by frockington1 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:32AM (#26874392)
What's the alternative? You need a place to live. I guess you can rent but that is constantly increasing and you get 0 equity out of it