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Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by slver on Monday April 19, 2021 @04:39AM (#26860336)
It's a good list, mostly. It's just nearly impossible to memorize.

I also think sometimes about terms like whitelist and blacklist. The problem isn't that they refer to race. The problem is that "white" and "black" refer to race. White and black are basic colors, and assigning meaning to colors is natural and unavoidable. However "white people" aren't "white", and "black people" aren't "black".

So IMHO the focus should be on dropping racial connotations from colors. If we're fine with not calling Asians "yellow" and Native Americans "red", we should be fine with that too.

Imagine if we couldn't have yellow and red traffic lights, because it'd be offensive to a race.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by CharlesW on Monday April 19, 2021 @09:50AM (#26862735)
> It's just nearly impossible to memorize.

I think the idea is that you test your documentation just like you do your code. I found a couple linters for this:

https://github.com/errata-ai/Google

https://github.com/gaurav-nelson/linter-google-styleguide

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by thih9 on Monday April 19, 2021 @05:00AM (#26860487)
> Imagine if we couldn't have yellow and red traffic lights, because it'd be offensive to a race.

I don't think this is a good comparison; the controversy of the "blacklist" term is a complex and polarising topic that depends heavily on context; I don't think it makes sense to look for an analogy here. For anyone looking for a summary, I like how wikipedia [1] describes the context and the current state.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklist_(computing)#Controve...

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by slver on Monday April 19, 2021 @05:05AM (#26860541)
I'd be very curious to hear what are the objective reasons why "yellow" and "red" are considered offensive when they refer to race, and "white" and "black" are considered appropriate. If you dig into it... it's just happenstance and habit.

Colors are just colors. They're not emotionally charged. We do that through cultural context and association.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by dragonwriter on Monday April 19, 2021 @06:38AM (#26861154)
> I'd be very curious to hear what are the objective reasons why "yellow" and "red" are considered offensive when they refer to race, and "white" and "black" are considered appropriate. If you dig into it... it's just happenstance and habit.

All of them are artifacts of White racism, “Black” has been widely (but not universally, and many prefer other terms) adopted by the people it targets [0], as (perhaps less surprisingly) has “White” [1], the rest mainly have not. That’s pretty much the defining difference—the others are “viewed as offensive” because they are, in fact, broadly offensive to the people to whom the label is applied.

[0] largely, at least in the US, as a label of shared identity grounded in experience of White racism.

[1] among non-racists, its often not so much a strong identity (narrower ethnic identities often take that role) as acknowledgement as insofar as race os a thing, that’s a fine name for theirs.

> Colors are just colors.

The use of colors aa names of races (and the way some are also associated with subracial groups) is pretty arbitrary rather than descriptive, “red” Indians, “brown” latin@s, and “yellow" asian/pacific islanders aren’t particular different in skin color in any way that maps to the color names.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by skocznymroczny on Monday April 19, 2021 @05:10AM (#26860585)
I guess they are offensive, because they are not used by their respective races. You don't have Chinese people calling themselves "yellow" and you don't have Native Americans calling themselves "red". But you will have Europeans referring to them as "white" and Africans referring to them as "black".
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by yorwba on Monday April 19, 2021 @06:15AM (#26861015)
> You don't have Chinese people calling themselves "yellow"

Of course there are, e.g. the ones who wrote the Baidu Baike article on "yellow people": https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%BB%84%E8%89%B2%E4%BA%BA%E7%... But a term that groups them with Japanese, Mongolians and Indonesians doesn't have much relevance for most Chinese people anyway.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by nmfisher on Monday April 19, 2021 @08:03AM (#26861794)
Chinese people refer to themselves as yellow.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by Volundr on Monday April 19, 2021 @11:18AM (#26863687)
Asking honestly... They do? I've never seen it happen in any Chinese media I've consumed, though not speaking Chinese that could have more to do with the translators. I've certainly never heard an American of Chinese decent refer to themselves this way.

Can we get more context on this?

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by RestlessMind on Monday April 19, 2021 @01:04PM (#26865119)
I am not a Chinese person but I have came across "banana"[1] in multiple places, most famously in the movie "Crazy Rich Asians"

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana,_Coconut,_and_Twinkie

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by nmfisher on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:42AM (#26887328)
Americans of Chinese descent are not Chinese. My wife is Beijing born-and-bred and refers to (East) Asians as yellow people, as do many of her friends.

If you want a more objective source and can read Chinese, there's a Baidu Baike (think Chinese wiktionary) page for the term (黄种人):

https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%BB%84%E8%89%B2%E4%BA%BA%E7%...

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by japorized on Monday April 19, 2021 @10:14PM (#26869995)
They do, but it’s not as common as black and white in English (American) media. There’s even an old song, pretty well-known, that has 2 lines that can be translated as “Black eyes, black hair, and yellow skin, forever more shall be the descendants of the dragon” (descendants of the dragon means of Chinese descent in the context of the song).
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by Seb-C on Monday April 19, 2021 @11:21PM (#26870351)
I learned the Japanese word 黄色人種 (yellow race) from a Japanese women when I asked how to appropriately designate "asian people".

(But it's definitely not the most common expression)

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by andromeduck on Monday April 19, 2021 @05:17AM (#26860629)
Well there's terms like banana, egg and the like but yeah. Same with Oriental vs Caucasian/Asian/African/European etc.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by slver on Monday April 19, 2021 @06:20AM (#26861034)
It's not hard to point out exceptions, but let's not go there, I guess.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by eli on Monday April 19, 2021 @10:34AM (#26863180)
"Blacklist" also happens to not be a very good term for the thing it's describing. You have to kinda know what it means first compared to "deny list" which is somewhat more intuitive.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by oxplot on Monday April 19, 2021 @07:26AM (#26861484)
> It's just nearly impossible to memorize.

This can be trivially implemented in CI for code and docs and have links to this doc. No need to remember it.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by jawns on Monday April 19, 2021 @09:22AM (#26862447)
Trivially? Have you ever tried to implement a text parser to enforce a style guide?

The low-hanging fruit is when there is a banned word with a defined replacement. For instance, in this Google style guide, all instances of "auto-scaling" should be replaced with "autoscaling."

But if you want to go much deeper than that, it gets very tricky very quickly.

For instance, how would you programmatically detect and correct text so it conforms to this style guide's Anthropomorphism guidelines? https://developers.google.com/style/anthropomorphism

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by emteycz on Monday April 19, 2021 @11:47AM (#26864082)
I don't think they meant fully autonomous integration.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by slver on Monday April 19, 2021 @02:03PM (#26866030)
"PC sees" vs. "PC detects" is just B.S. honestly. Both are equally anthropocentric, if at all.

Computer communication protocols closely resemble other systems (including human and animal communication). Objects are literally modeled after how ecosystems and social structures work.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by josefx on Monday April 19, 2021 @12:17PM (#26864465)
As trivial as cleaning up user names and in game chats without triggering a few million false positives. People have been working on this for decades, they have yet to succeed.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by quickthrowman on Monday April 19, 2021 @01:22PM (#26865418)
The implementation is left as an exercise to the reader.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by chalst on Monday April 19, 2021 @08:41PM (#26869482)
A start is whenever you have the urge to make use of a race-based concept, ask yourself if an ethnic-based concept would not serve better.

Personal opinion of a copy-editor of 15 years: the popular understanding of race is so pervaded by racism that it is difficult to use race-based terms without either reinforcing some racist idea or another on the one hand or risk being seen as "too PC" on the other. Social scientists do need race-based concepts, but outside contexts with scholarly norms, they have many foot-gun affordances.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by jobigoud on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:07AM (#26871966)
> Social scientists do need race-based concepts

Do they? There are places like France where the whole concept of race doesn't apply to humans. Race terminology is for things like dog breeds. Humans don't really have races in that sense.

This is exemplified by the fact that someone with a black and a white parents is said to be black, because of their skin color. Even if you are for example 1/8th black descent you are said to be of "race" black because of the resulting skin color. It doesn't make any sense as a scientific concept. Other countries have different classification, like South Africa.

We are one species with various ethnicities, usually mixed.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by chalst on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:31AM (#26873671)
According to David Graeber, the concept of race conveniently appeared when would-be slavers in Europe were looking for justifications for enslaving Africans when the medieval Catholic church consistently held that slavery was wrong. The concept of race was helpful in arguing the position that while God's law applied to the peoples that the medieval church knew of, there might be human-seeming creatures to whom it doesn't.

The effects of race-justified practices were so far reaching that they can be said to shape our societies, just as decades after the abolition of Apartheid, most South Africans know exactly how they would have been classified. At this point, for social scientists to abandon race would mean we would live in a society with features that neo-fascists have ready explanations for and no systematic standard of evidence against which their claims could be exposed for the fantasies they really are. You need to have the concept of race before you can see why the reality does not support the claims of the racists.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by fanf2 on Monday April 19, 2021 @05:56AM (#26860900)
The problem with whitelist and blacklist is that they don’t say what they mean. If you use more descriptive terms then your writing will be easier to understand.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by Mordisquitos on Monday April 19, 2021 @08:29AM (#26861974)
If the problem is descriptiveness and ease of understanding, the same can be said about the words "white" or "black" when referring to people. Neither of them say what they mean.

In fact, I would argue that disagreements and ambiguities as to what makes a person "white" or "black" are astronomically more frequent than difficulties in understanding what is meant by the words "whitelist" or "blacklist".

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by dragonwriter on Monday April 19, 2021 @04:13PM (#26867435)
> the same can be said about the words "white" or "black" when referring to people. Neither of them say what they mean.

Neither should be used to refer to people. “White” and “Black”, capitalized as proper nouns and proper adjectives are in English, to refer to particular identity groups and association with those identity groups are, OTOH, a different story.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by foobiter on Monday April 19, 2021 @09:31AM (#26862530)
allowlist and blocklist are clearer regardless
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by Mordisquitos on Monday April 19, 2021 @10:07AM (#26862901)
Are they? Are the terms "whitelist" and "blacklist" used only in the context of "allowing" and "blocking"? Who or what is the subject that is implied to be "allowing" and "blocking" the elements of each list? Is the process involved in "allowing" and/or "blocking" passive or active?

"Whitelist" and "blacklist" are abstract terms which are useful because they have general and non-specific meanings which can be adapted to many contexts. Artificially prescribed alternatives, introduced only to satisfy the current American cultural Zeitgeist, are not.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by fanf2 on Monday April 19, 2021 @10:19AM (#26863012)
If you aren't using the list for allowing or blocking, then give it a name that describes what you are using it for.

It dismays me to see programmers arguing loudly and stubbornly for bad terminology, when a key skill for designing a good API is to choose good names.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by Mordisquitos on Monday April 19, 2021 @10:56AM (#26863421)
If only so much other "bad terminology" in IT that does not accurately reflect what it means, such as POST, PUT, cookie, bug, shell, etc. were also names of discriminated social groups in America... maybe then we could get people arguing loudly and stubbornly to replace them. One can only dream.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by slver on Monday April 19, 2021 @03:28PM (#26866952)
I propose we rename GET, POST, PUT, DELETE, PATCH to: SAFE, NOTSAFE, NOTSAFE, NOTSAFE, NOTSAFE.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by foobiter on Monday April 19, 2021 @08:35PM (#26869443)
you didn’t even give a single counter example
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by eli on Monday April 19, 2021 @05:30PM (#26868167)
The AP Style Guide is 600+ pages. They're usually more of a reference guide than something you're supposed to have memorized on day 1.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by codefined on Monday April 19, 2021 @05:10AM (#26860584)
Sometimes avoiding those connotations are exceptionally hard, verging on impossible. In comparison, it seems a documentation change from whitelist to allowlist might just be a single find & replace away for a project.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by bluecatswim on Monday April 19, 2021 @06:04AM (#26860951)
>Sometimes avoiding those connotations are exceptionally hard, verging on impossible.

Is it? Two years ago if someone told me they think of certain races every time they hear about whitelists or black holes I'd find them a bit silly.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by MaKey on Monday April 19, 2021 @06:55AM (#26861243)
To be honest, I still find people a bit silly that think of certain races when reading those terms.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by thefz on Monday April 19, 2021 @05:44AM (#26860821)
> Sometimes avoiding those connotations are exceptionally hard

That is 100% an anglo-saxon world problem since most European languages either differentiate between words for skin color and color name, or using the color name to describe skin color isn't considered racist at all.

I would stretch it even to mark it as an US-only problem.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by falcolas on Monday April 19, 2021 @09:24AM (#26862467)
Instead, European languages have a tendency to gender everything. I imagine that’s an untapped “problem” in some folks’ eyes that will boil over sooner or later.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by anon98356 on Monday April 19, 2021 @09:34AM (#26862560)
I was recently in France and was told by a local this was actually an issue with the covid outbreak. There is a department that decides on the gender of new words and they determined covid (or some variant on that) to be feminine.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by JNRowe on Monday April 19, 2021 @10:11AM (#26862938)
Presumably, the folk at the Académie Française¹.

Every couple of years they release a statement that causes a flurry of changes in the documentation of a few projects I've worked on. Always in really curious ways too, exchanging words that are common to French people in our industry with words uncommon to everyone.

I kind of appreciate the quirkiness of the whole thing.

¹ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Académie_Française

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by falcolas on Monday April 19, 2021 @09:42AM (#26862650)
> There is a department that decides on the gender of new words

TIL. Fascinating.

> covid (or some variant on that) to be feminine.

And here I was hoping that I was being too pessamistic.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by RugnirViking on Monday April 19, 2021 @01:05PM (#26865139)
Gramatical gender has very little to do with the words it describes. For example, in a particularly confusing twist: féminisme (feminism) is a masculine noun, wheras masculinité (masculinity) is feminine.

It's mostly due to the pronunciation and spelling of the word ending. Although in this case, the Académie Française decided feminine because COVID is an acronym, and the last word of that acronym is disease, and disease is a feminine word (la Maladie) because of how it is spelled.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by jobigoud on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @04:12AM (#26872007)
The issue with Covid is that we all started to say LE covid for a few months until June/July or so, maybe because we say LE coronavirus, and then they come and tell us we must say LA Covid.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by thefz on Monday April 19, 2021 @03:26PM (#26866931)
It's not that we gender everything, I am Italian and my language does not have the neutral pronoun. Everything is either masculine or feminine.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by goldsteinq on Monday April 19, 2021 @01:03PM (#26865105)
Single find & replace is exactly what this document tells you not to do, since that's how you get dumb^W suboptimal results like "denylisted" instead of sane^W more clear options like "denied".
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by lallysingh on Monday April 19, 2021 @05:35AM (#26860756)
African American and Caucasian?
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by GeneralTspoon on Monday April 19, 2021 @09:18AM (#26862402)
Ah yes, all those African American people in Kenya
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by aikinai on Monday April 19, 2021 @11:01AM (#26863472)
I live in Japan and visiting Americans do this all the time. Many people just did a find-and-replace on their speech years ago and never consider what it actually means.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by mc32 on Monday April 19, 2021 @02:19PM (#26866220)
What’s funny is when you have people call foreigners “outside country people” (if you’re a foreigner in East Asia) but there is a funny transition where if they visit the US they still refer to ex. an American in the US as an “outside country people.”

So, let me introduce you to my ‘waiguoren’ friend here in LA. Right, the local is the foreigner.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by fakedang on Monday April 19, 2021 @11:24AM (#26863772)
Or you know, all those African people in Kenya? Africans refer to themselves as Africans, not as Black.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by username90 on Monday April 19, 2021 @01:47PM (#26865814)
Do they really refer to themselves as Africans and not Kenyans or whatever tribe they belong to? "African" isn't a race, the people from that continent are way too diverse for that.

And since it is a place and not a race there are plenty of white Africans out there, same as there are plenty of black Europeans out there. Calling people who have never been to Africa "African American" just because they skin is dark is just plain racism. They are dark skinned Americans and has nothing to do with Africa.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by fakedang on Monday April 19, 2021 @02:46PM (#26866506)
If they are in a place with a really small minority of their population, they band together as African. If they go to a place with relatively larger sizes, they tend to go by their nationality. Never have I met an African who goes by their race or by the colour of their skin.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by username90 on Monday April 19, 2021 @02:48PM (#26866524)
But white people from Africa also call themselves African. People rarely refer to themselves by their race, anyone can see that they have dark skin, so they just say which region they are from.

If you think it is wrong for white Africans to call themselves Africans then how can white Americans call themselves Americans? Similarly when I talk to dark skinned people in Europe they call themselves Europeans and not Africans. When they talk about their "race" they say they are black or brown, because that is the only thing separating them from the other people.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by fakedang on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:11AM (#26872387)
Did you even read my last line? No African I've met goes by the colour of their skin as part of their identity. They go by nationality first, followed by ethnicity, which is often tied to their language, and even that tertiary identity is sparingly used.

Dark skinned people from Europe are Europeans for all means and purposes, just as white Africans are Africans for all purposes. The "race" that you mention is a very recent development, and is an American export that is mostly confined to Europe alone (and mostly Western Europe). The Africans I've met and worked with often fumed at the whole colour-based distinction. They would rather be identified by nationality, and then language-based ethnicity (Zulu, Xhosa, Amheri, etc). And no, it's not that "anyone can see that they have dark skin", there are pretty clear racial distinctions based on skintone too (light-brown vs dark brown, which was part of the basis for the Rwandan genocide).

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by InitialLastName on Monday April 19, 2021 @10:04AM (#26862872)
Not to mention all the French-Canadians of Azeri stock.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by andromeduck on Monday April 19, 2021 @02:20PM (#26866221)
There are black people not from Africa.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by bobthechef on Monday April 19, 2021 @11:37AM (#26863946)
> So IMHO the focus should be on dropping racial connotations from colors.

Color identifies are generally bullshit. For example, what the heck is a white person? Are the Irish white? A 19th century WASP wouldn't think so. In fact, most Europeans who lived in their own ethnic communities in the US weren't white until about the mid-20th century. Incidentally, this is when the Great Migration began and these communities began to disintegrate. The WASPs began to feel threatened (though this is hardly unique to WASPs; cf. the Soviets, the Nazis, the CCP, etc), and so they engaged in bit of social engineering, identity theft, and deracinization. You were no longer Irish or German or Polish or Swedish or Lithuanian or whatever. You were now bland old generic "white". But wait a second. What is "white identity" and "white culture"? Do the Whites speak White? Of course not. This is what identity theft and imposed artificial identities are about. You are robbed of your identity and then told what your identity is by a ruling class that controls that identity. So you need to look to the ruling class to "know" who you are because they're no way to know or determine what whiteness is beyond what they make it mean. If you want to know what "whiteness" means, look no further than the organs and estates of power in this country. This is social engineering and control.

> Imagine if we couldn't have yellow and red traffic lights, because it'd be offensive to a race.

Exactly. Frankly, I don't think people associate "whitelist" with whiteness and "blacklist" with blackness. I don't, and people aren't monomaniacally stupid like that and that's not how we work. We can speak of the gorgeous black ebony of a piano or a raven-haired or a doe-eyed/black eyed beauty, or how handsome a shiny black tuxedo looks or how sleek a black Ferrari might look. Black tie formals appreciate the elegance that stark contrasts can have. We can also speak of someone looking pale as a ghost and sickly, whitewashing the truth, and so on. So it is patent nonsense that people think in these term. Maybe those people who believe this is the case are guilty of some kind of truly bizarre obsession where everything is racialized. Poor them. We judge things according to some normative understanding of what something ought or can be, not in abstraction.

(Some may allude to the historical use of dark colors to depict evil and white to depict good. This is, again, a highly selective reading and betrays the same inability to contextualize. The night is dark, darkness means inability to see, obscurity, concealment. Light reveals, makes things known. Is nature therefore racist? Should we accuse the sun, or light itself, of being racist? How parochial. Again, nobody of sound mind thinks this way and it is nothing less than the paranoia of insane academic bubble chamber ideologues.)

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by bongoman37 on Monday April 19, 2021 @04:58AM (#26860476)
yea, maybe we could call people cream and chocolate. I'd be onboard with that.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by josteink on Monday April 19, 2021 @05:21AM (#26860663)
We could call people ... people? Do they have to be black or white?
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by slver on Monday April 19, 2021 @08:23AM (#26861924)
"People are at higher risk of vitamin D deficiency compared to people." Race is not something to necessarily hide.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by Mordisquitos on Monday April 19, 2021 @08:35AM (#26862020)
"People with darker skin are at higher risk of vitamin D deficiency compared to people with lighter skin." This sentence is more accurate and useful than the alternative based on the socially constructed ideas of "black" or "white" people. There is no need to "hide" race, as there is no such thing.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by slver on Monday April 19, 2021 @09:09AM (#26862332)
"Darker" and "lighter" are relative terms said relative to no one, maybe some unknown average.

Also people with darker skin due to lots of UV exposure are at LOWER risk of vitamin D deficiency than your average pale skinned person.

So it comes down to genetics. Like it or not. Facts of life.

To say there's "no such thing" as race is incredibly, you know, post-factual. Might as well decide there's "no such thing as sex", just half of humanity is inexplicably infertile.

In medicine you don't get everyone's legs preventively amputated because maybe some people have problems with their legs. In the same way we can't just amputate our dictionary and minds of useful concepts and knowledge like the idea of race, just because some people have problematic interpretations of race.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by Mordisquitos on Monday April 19, 2021 @10:38AM (#26863212)
The use of relative terms is clear when used in the same sentence, and there is no need for an implied average. Taller people are more likely to reach higher shelves than shorter people. Richer people are more likely to own a car than poorer people. Older people are more likely to have had children than younger people. None of those sentences need an artificial human category to make their meaning clear.

Also, I don't know what point you're trying to make by implying different base conditions. A "black" person who likes to sunbathe in their garden is also at lower risk of vitamin D deficiency than a "white" person who never leaves their basement. So what? And surely you're aware that at higher latitudes "white" people with darker skin are at greater risk than lighter-skinned "white" people? And "black" people with lighter skin are at lower risk than "black" people with darker skin?

Of course it's down to genetics—at no point have I implied otherwise. The variance in baseline melanin is of course genetic! But, like it or not, "a characteristic is genetic" does not mean "races are real". I suggest you catch up on the subject of human population genetics.

There is no such thing as human race in the biological consensus. Rather, it is an arbitrary social construct present mostly in Western and especially American society, which doesn't even have consistent interpretations across regions or populations.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by username90 on Monday April 19, 2021 @01:57PM (#26865945)
> There is no such thing as human race in the biological consensus

There is. There is however no clear way to create a line saying "here one race ends and the other race begins", there is a continuous spectrum between Europeans and Africans and Asians. So the way USA tries to put you in discrete bins like "White", "Black", "Latino", "Asian" is unscientific, but the concept that humans whose ancestors came from different parts of the world are different enough for them to be considered separate races is not.

Technically there are more races of humans in Africa than outside Africa since it is so diverse, but USA still groups all of them as "black", its just pure nonsense what they are doing.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by slver on Monday April 19, 2021 @01:10PM (#26865234)
> But, like it or not, "a characteristic is genetic" does not mean "races are real". I suggest you catch up on the subject of human population genetics.

I mean, that's literally the definition of a race: "a population within a species that is distinct in some way, especially a subspecies".

I'm not sure arguing whether a concept is real or not real makes sense. If a concept can be clearly defined, it's "real".

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by ampdepolymerase on Monday April 19, 2021 @09:07AM (#26862309)
Aladeen is at a higher risk of vitamin D compared to Aladeen.
Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by josteink on Monday April 19, 2021 @04:57AM (#26860459)
> So IMHO the focus should be on dropping racial connotations from colors. If we're fine with not calling Asians "yellow" and Native Americans "red", we should be fine with that too.

I think that sounds like a very good solution, but it's opposite of the solution being touted by the current progressive regime.

They seem to think that to combat racial discrimination, to combat thinking in black and white, we first have to make everything black and white. They then assign different treatments/rights to the different segregations, to correct for some historical wrong-doing, to ensure everyone now gets treated, on overall, "equalish".

From my understanding this principle is even being taught in schools, and also applied to other areas in society (gender-equality, LGBTQ)? If so, we do have quite some way to go.

> Imagine if we couldn't have yellow and red traffic lights, because it'd be offensive to a race.

All these terrible things starts with someone making a comment like this, and then someone for whatever reason taking it seriously.

I'm not going to take it for granted that someone is not going to cause a hissy fit over this sometime in the future.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by lallysingh on Monday April 19, 2021 @05:38AM (#26860775)
I'd call that 'first recognizing the current state of affairs'. Denial has been a long standing issue where some folks have denied that a problem exists.

When the problem is separate treatment of different races, then the problem statement has to talk about race.

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by busymom0 on Monday April 19, 2021 @05:17AM (#26860634)
> They then assign different treatments/rights to the different segregations

It's what Yuri Bezmenov refereed to as useful idiots. Divide and conquer has been used by those in power to rule over the constituents for centuries. They realized that the best way to prevent people from looking at the real enemy (establishment) was to keep them infighting and the best way to do that is to divide people into as many oppressor oppressed buckets as possible and let them fight each other. So now we have people not just fighting about rich vs poor, now it's based on race, sex, sexual preference, ethnicity etc. While we keep fighting each other, the corporations and establishment elites keep getting richer and more powerful, meanwhile our lives keep getting more and more miserable. This identity politics is also used by corporations and politicians to prevent and deflect blame. Want your $2000 stimulus? Want a minimum wage? Want wall Street, Robinhood accountability? Want universal health care? Want an end to forever wars? You won't get any of that and if you question it, you are being sexist for attacking the first secretary of the treasury (paid off by Wall Street and $800G by Robinhood hedge fund), first black secretary of defence (Raytheon board seat), first trans health minister (took out her own mother while forcing covid patients into nursing homes). It is evil yet genius identity politics and people are too afraid to speak up.

"Racism is not dead. But it is on life-support, kept alive mainly by the people who use it for an excuse or to keep minority communities fearful or resentful enough to turn out as a voting bloc on election day." - Thomas Sowell

Obligatory mention for relevant Ryan Long comedy skit:

https://youtu.be/Ev373c7wSRg

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by chalst on Monday April 19, 2021 @02:42PM (#26866467)
> It's what Yuri Bezmenov refereed to as useful idiots

Apologies for derailing the interesting ideas, but my reaction to this was: Who? What? Surely this is the concept due to Lenin.

Wikipedia-depth research says this is probably a myth; that it likely originates from early Cold War journalism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

Re:Word usage guidance and alternative terms by exo-pla-net on Monday April 19, 2021 @10:11AM (#26862935)
This reads like a hypothesis / creation fable. It's conceivable that some in power have intentionally leveraged identity politics to fracture an opposing voting bloc, but citation needed.