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Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by oblio on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @03:33PM (#26639269)
Honest question from an outsider: except for the hobbyist/techie points, is there a solid reason why you'd buy a Raspberry Pi?

Aren't there any Intel Celeron or some such super cheap x86 small boards? I imagine you'll get a ton more oomph, probably much better software support and they shouldn't cost that much more.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by gregmac on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @06:22PM (#26641308)
It's a standardized piece of kit at a great price point with broad and long-term availability around the world. There's simply not anything that hits all those points in the x86 world.

It's a good target if you want to provide something very close to a "turn-key appliance" without actually selling your own hardware: You can provide an image that a user writes to a microSD card, plugs in, and it just works.

For example: HomeAssistant [1] for home automation, OctoPi [2] 3D printer software, OpenElec [3] media center, RetroPi [4] game console emulator, Volumio [4] music player, and lots more [5].

[1] https://www.home-assistant.io/installation

[2] https://octoprint.org/download/

[3] https://openelec.tv/

[4] https://retropie.org.uk/

[5] https://volumio.org/

[6] https://github.com/thibmaek/awesome-raspberry-pi

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by chaosharmonic on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @06:43PM (#26641459)
> It's a good target if you want to provide something very close to a "turn-key appliance" without actually selling your own hardware: You can provide an image that a user writes to a microSD card, plugs in, and it just works.

Better yet - they boot from USB now (and even NVMe if you're using a CM4).

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by 29083011397778 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @03:07AM (#26644320)
You're missing (IMO) the fun one: PXE. Micro SD cards go bad frequently, and this turns the RPi into a Line Replaceable Unit. Should one ever have coffee spilled on it, a new one is plug and play, with (excluding hardware availability) relatively little downtime.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by gregmac on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:32PM (#26656009)
For many use cases, yeah, PXE is great. Classrooms/labs, digital signage, or anywhere you need distributed I/O, it makes total sense.

The biggest downside is your PXE server going down is going to kill all the Pis, so if you are doing something important you need a highly-available PXE setup. And if you have that, it's probably a better place to host a lot of the services people use Pis for in the first place.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by jasonjayr on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @09:05PM (#26642431)
Don't forget http://www.raspberry-asterisk.org/

I've setup a small office with 5 lines + 10 extensions all running on one of those (+ an analog line adapter), and it's been trouble free for the 3-4 year uptime so far.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by gregmac on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @10:51PM (#26643014)
Oh, definitely a good example, I'm embarrassed I forgot that! I was part of the core FreePBX development team for a few years (before RasPBX was a thing), and eventually moved my home PBX setup to a Pi 1 running RasPBX, which I used for 4+ years.

Sadly, as our usage of the IP phones dwindled (cell phones, texting, and now conference software taking over), my significant other began evicting them from around the house ("too big and ugly"). A couple years ago, my instance was at the point I needed to do some major OS upgrades to it, and considering it was basically my office phone and a cordless left, I ended up retiring the Pi and PBX. Now I just register my last couple phones directly to my VoIP provider.

It looks like a Pi 4 can handle "dozens" of simultaneous channels (though depends on codecs used), and that would be my starting point if I got back into doing PBX work or deploying a system today -- though I'd probably run it from an SSD instead of SD card.

This is a great example of the benefits of the Pi hardware, too: People don't tolerate PBX downtime. With the Pi, it's incredibly cheap to have hardware for a failover server (try pricing that out on a commercial PBX!), and in an emergency you can run out and buy one locally or have it shipped overnight.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by 867-5309 on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @10:20PM (#26642858)
OpenElec ceased development around four years ago, you'd be better off with the fork LibreElec which is actively maintained
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by btgeekboy on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @08:36PM (#26642244)
In my personal niche, there's also http://stratux.me. Commercial competitors are making their own devices that cost hundreds more, but for those willing to put in the few minutes to assemble the RPi and USB dongles into an enclosure, it's very cost-effective.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by justin66 on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @07:41PM (#26641921)
I bought an Intel Galileo board a couple of years after I bought one of the first Raspberry Pi boards. Guess which one is still supported, and which one the manufacturer bailed on a couple of years after I bought it?

It's not mysterious. Making and supporting Raspberry Pis is the Raspberry Pi Foundation's thing. Wandering around in a confused state is Intel's thing.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by teraflop on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @03:46PM (#26639450)
Almost every x86 board on the market is way more expensive and/or way more power-hungry than the Raspberry Pi.

The only one I'm aware of that's in the same ballpark is the Atomic Pi, which was apparently a limited production run using heavily discounted surplus components. It's not as popular as you'd expect given the $40 price point, which I assume is because there isn't anything like the same level of community support that the Raspberry Pi has.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by mkaic on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @05:45PM (#26640952)
Happy Atomic Pi customer here, and their lack of popularity confuses me too. Even comes with wifi out of the box! :P
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by ekianjo on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @06:08PM (#26641196)
> Almost every x86 board on the market is way more expensive and/or way more power-hungry than the Raspberry Pi.

Used Celeron NUCs are not more expensive, and they are way more powerful.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by teraflop on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @06:34PM (#26641405)
Could you share a link, then? The prices I've seen for the Intel NUCs are more like $100+, even used, compared to $30 for the cheapest Raspberry Pi 4.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by tyingq on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @09:41PM (#26642637)
Used Chromeboxes are inexpensive, and pretty close to a NUC other than the BIOS. But, people have figured out how to get them to boot Linux, Windows, etc, now. There's also pretty nice used USFF boxes from Lenovo, HP and Dell: https://www.servethehome.com/introducing-project-tinyminimic... The older ones, like a Lenovo M72 tiny, can be really inexpensive.

To me, they aren't always a better fit than an Rpi, but they often are.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by NortySpock on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @09:51PM (#26642697)
On eBay I've been seeing off-lease and refurbished small-form-factor (SFF) computers for around $100...

Well, it's a Pentium 4 with 2GB DDR2 RAM... You may wish to search around a bit.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Optiplex-745-PC-SFF-Desktop-In...

HP T620 workstation ~$45 plus shipping?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-T620-Dual-Core-AMD-Gx217Ga-1-65G...

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by deno on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @09:35AM (#26647067)
I have installed bunch of T620, they’re great. There’s also 4c version with AMD GX-415GA for ~60USD. If you need PCIe check out Fujtsu Futro s920[1]. You can fit a low profile network card with a 5USD riser. About <100 USD where I buy them.

[1] https://hejdom.pl/blog/22-home-assistant/208-home-assistant-...

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by vardump on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:16AM (#26646221)
I'm pretty sure Raspberry Pi 4 is more powerful (both CPU and GPU wise) than either one of those.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by deno on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @09:39AM (#26647131)
GPU is more powerful, CPU is comparable. Similar power usage. OTOH RP4 doesn’t have builtin SSD, you need additional case, additional heat sink if you plan to actually use it for CPU, and it’s not x86. Some also take PCIe cards without extra boards/hacks. If you don’t need GPIO ports and just want a low power server/appliance then thin clients are still much better option. I use them for VoIP, HomeAssistant etc.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by ekianjo on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:08PM (#26655877)
> Raspberry Pi 4

We can easily compare that on Linux with benchmarks. I'd say at the same price point for used x86, x86 is still much faster.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by senko on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @04:48PM (#26640259)
Bought a couple hundred of them for on-site devices (intentionally avoiding IoT branding here). We use them as plug (into mains and net) and play appliances, zero knowledge required by the end user.

Cheap, robust, solid support and tools. Definitely hit the sweet spot for what we needed.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by robert_foss on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @03:38PM (#26639345)
There is no x86 equivalent at that price point & form factor.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by ThrowawayR2 on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @03:50PM (#26639505)
The Intel Compute Stick (https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits...) and its clones (which can still be found easily on eBay) and the Intel Compute Card (https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/compute-card/compute...) showed that x86 could match the Raspberry Pi form factor with roughly the same idle power and much better peak performance. However, the parent is correct that Intel couldn't (or wasn't willing to) match the price point.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by my123 on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @04:07PM (#26639738)
Raspberry Pis are on much older Arm architectures/manufacturing processes, with nowhere near the performance of a smartphone, and with very reduced energy efficiency.

Raspberry Pi 3 was a Cortex-A53 back ported to 40nm outright.

Raspberry Pi 4 is on 28nm. (for comparison, Apple A8 and Snapdragon 810 were on 20nm already, in 2014-15)

It runs with a Cortex-A72 at a low clock (1.5GHz, phones even are at twice that clock nowadays) and quite high power consumption because of the process node.

The memory interface is narrow (32-bit bus, phones ship with a 64-bit bus and laptops/desktops with a 128b one) at a low data rate (LPDDR4-3200).

In addition to that, the CPU can only use 5GB/sec of it, with the remainder being reserved for the GPU only.

Those were some of the sacrifices needed to reach this price point. (and why it isn't representative at all of the performance of higher-end ARMs)

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by vardump on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:18AM (#26646238)
Yeah, Raspberry Pi needs a 64-bit memory bus pretty badly. Hopefully it's feasible in the future without compromising cost.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by JoshTriplett on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @04:31PM (#26640051)
The Raspberry Pi is also more solder-friendly, with GPIO and similar. The Compute Stick makes sense if you're going to connect to well-defined ports.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by Laforet on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @07:35PM (#26641877)
The earlier models of compute stick had serious EMF issues with their USB and 2.4Ghz radio to the point that some configurations were practically unusable. This turned a lot of people away and it never got popular. Not to mention they ran pretty hot even with active cooling.

At the same time Intel was heavily subsidizing their x86 mobile SoCs to tablet manufacturers and for a while it was actually quite competitive price wise but it ultimately went bothered.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by mkaic on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @05:46PM (#26640971)
Atomic Pi is pretty darn close, though it's twice the size. Severely underrate SBC imo
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by unixhero on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @03:42PM (#26639396)
Nor energy usage.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by AshamedCaptain on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @04:22PM (#26639929)
Actually, that would only be right if the Raspberry Pi was any good regarding power usage. However the Raspberry Pi is utterly crap at power savings, with practically no power saving modes and very power-hungry (though cheap) components. (excluding the RPI0 models, which have no peripherals whatsoever).

I have a _very old_ PN40 from Asus -- this is a full PC with an intel Celeron, a SATA SSD and about 8GB of RAM that idles at 1.7W (serving websites via GB Ethernet) as measured _at the wall_. This is just standard PC Linux distro with zero customization (other than `powertop --auto-tune`).

For comparison, the latest RPI4B without the SSD and with 1/8 RAM idles at 3.5ishW on the wall. Even the older RPI3 I could never get below 2W, and that is without any peripherals (no display, no Wifi, no eth, min USB) and significant tuning.

On the other hand the PN40 + components cost significantly more (probably close to 10x), and the CPU performance itself is not that good these days.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by gtirloni on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @08:27PM (#26642189)
That's weird. Most places report rpi's idling below 1W

https://raspi.tv/2019/how-much-power-does-the-pi4b-use-power...

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by davrosthedalek on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @09:17PM (#26642498)
That website lists Pi4B at 575mA. At 5V, that's 2.875W. With efficiency of a typical usb power supply, ~80%, that's about 3.5W at the wall.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by gtirloni on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:19AM (#26647646)
Ah, got it. I misread the data, thank you.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by ThrowawayR2 on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @04:02PM (#26639666)
That's often said but seems to be a myth.

- The Odroid H2+ x86 board claims about ~4W idle power: https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-h2plus

- This measurement of idle power on the Raspberry Pi 4 says it uses ~3.4W: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/raspberry-pi-4

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by my123 on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @03:47PM (#26639463)
Intel tried to make: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/79084/i...

in the past as a relatively cheap x86 CPU. ($9.62 per unit)

However, it's a 400MHz 486 with some backports (1st generation Pentium, no MMX even) and broken LOCK prefix so that software specifically needed to be recompiled for it.

And at 2.2 W too, it never ended up succeeding anywhere, with no successor.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by toast0 on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @04:43PM (#26640183)
I was pretty sure (without citations) the quark is a die shrunk pre-mmx pentium (but post division table bug), are you sure it's a 486?

The right era pentium had the same LOCK prefix issue (we used to call it the F00F bug)

Edit: Thanks for link; I must have anchored on the instruction set and ignored that it was using the 486 pipeline.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by my123 on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @04:46PM (#26640219)
https://www.linleygroup.com/newsletters/newsletter_detail.ph...

"The new x86 CPU uses an old-school 486 scalar pipeline and the original Pentium instruction set with some modern enhancements"

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by tedunangst on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @05:13PM (#26640605)
The fact it's got the f00f bug certainly made it sound like a dusted off pentium core.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by jandrese on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @04:51PM (#26640301)
Yeah, but the PC104 boards that those got stuck on were still $250 each.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by ekianjo on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @06:09PM (#26641209)
Latest x86 mobile chips (with U in their names) are very low-energy consumers.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by sliken on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @07:55PM (#26642005)
Close, hardkernel has a intel quad core J4115 for $119. Similar size, somewhat more expensive, 2x2.5G ethernet, 2 sodimms (max 32GB), M.2 port, etc.

Not quite direct competition, but pretty close. Maybe more directly similar to the Pi 4CM with a daughter card for NVMe, network, sata, etc.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by kzrdude on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @04:31PM (#26640043)
I'm working in embedded, admittedly I'm not a hardcore hardware guy. But everyone's using rpis for being the basic driver for our little gizmo during development. It's simply a good, cheap board to use for R&D and connecting stuff to.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by arwhatever on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @08:52PM (#26642347)
How does one get into such hardware-adjacent work?

Any possibility to transition from enterprise/cloud app dev, but with no comp Eng background?

Hardware-adjacent looks more interesting to me - would you say that I’m right or I’m wrong? :-)

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by kzrdude on Thursday April 01, 2021 @12:33PM (#26662732)
I don't know :) It helps that my background is in engineering, not comp eng, though, I guess.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by ahhname on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @04:03PM (#26639672)
The x86 based SBC are usually a lot more expensive. Usually they start around $100 or so, but at that point they use way outdated chips. For instance, the basic LattePanda has an Atom x5-Z8350, which is limmited to 2GB of DDR3 RAM.

The Pis really can do a lot too. Mine hosts a vpn, pihole, calibre-web, and a couple of other basic things. Really the only downside to the ARM based SBCs is they mostly use MicroSD cards, which probably are the greatest bottleneck in the system and mostly likely thing to fail.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by tlrobinson on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @01:58AM (#26643983)
As a desktop computer, outside of perhaps education? Probably not.

As a dedicated, small, cheap computer for the “brains” of various hobbies and certain professional projects (at least where reliability isn’t the top concern)? Absolutely.

It’s by far the popular $35 Linux box out there. People create distros for all sorts of use-cases. Off the top of my head:

Pi-hole, RetroPi, Volumio, OctoPrint, Home Assistant, piAware, Plex/Kodi, many more.

Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by asimovfan on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @05:19PM (#26640691)
I use a rpi 4 8gb as my daily driver. It does everything and its hard to get distracted with.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by mastre_ on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @03:25PM (#26651853)
Care to describe details of your setup?
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by asimovfan on Saturday April 03, 2021 @06:04AM (#26679712)
Just a raspberry pi hooked up to the router, an old lcd monitor, a keyboard and mouse. I boot from a usb 3.0 flash drive.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by devwastaken on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @11:26PM (#26643192)
Currently I'm using one for cross referencing aarch64 neon assembly with other architectures. It's a cheap way to have real modern arm hardware that performs decently.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by bananabreakfast on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @03:52PM (#26639530)
There's a reason raspberry pi's are on arm. x86 does not do well in small form factor and would actually perform far worse is this situation.
Re:Arm Announces Armv9 Architecture: SVE2, Security, and the... by centimeter on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @04:50PM (#26640286)
The raspberry pi is pretty popular here, but as someone who works on both embedded and server applications, I find it to be a massive piece of shit. The broadcom SoCs they use are complete garbage, with really poor reliability and several badly broken peripherals.