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Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by viro on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @10:14AM (#26567477)
This is so divorced from reality I don't know where to start. There is effectively no difference between "apt install widget-a" and installing it from a "App Store" other than the App Store option lets the dev feed his family if he needs to to. at least from a user stand point.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by jascii on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @10:55AM (#26567991)
One could argue that it is exactly this financial incentive that causes all the mislabeled useless apps on the app stores.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by viro on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @10:58AM (#26568043)
>financial incentive

? ... financial incentives is the motivation for most labor.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by jascii on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @12:06PM (#26569033)
Research has actually indicated that the link between financial incentives and motivation to work is actually very small: https://hbr.org/2013/04/does-money-really-affect-motiv

Thus widespread availability of "labor of love" open source software, and the relative crappiness of a lot of commercial software.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by greyhair on Friday March 26, 2021 @12:19PM (#26593884)
Money has a huge affect, up to the point that your needs are met. Yes, if your needs are met, and you have time to pursue things you enjoy, you do that, but first, your needs must be met.

If I didn't require an income to cover a family of five, I would be retired, and doing whatever it is that I love at any moment. But instead, I work for a living, for money, to meet our needs.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by reader_mode on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @01:05PM (#26569992)
Most OSS is funded by corporate and wouldn't exist without it
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by jascii on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @01:18PM (#26570170)
Corporations do provide funds for some larger projects, that is however not anywhere near "most".
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by anoncake on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @11:20AM (#26568352)
Financial incentives redirect labour from useful to profitable activities.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by viro on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @11:27AM (#26568456)
You mean labor is directed towards actions that produce more value than simply the labor put into them. Odd, its like you think that's a bad thing.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by aidenn0 on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @12:47PM (#26569683)
Since much of monetary value is related to scarcity, labor is directed to reduce scarcity, not to actions that produce social value.

The pool of people who are capable of collecting garbage is non-scarce, so the price for labor is relatively small compared to the social value it produces.

Advertising is so well rewarded because the attention of consumers is a very scarce resource, so companies put massive amounts of money into capturing some of that.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by jascii on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @12:44PM (#26569633)
That statement only holds if you only define "value" as financial gain. I would consider that a dangerous simplification.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by anoncake on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @11:30AM (#26568491)
That is literally the opposite of what I wrote.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by marcus_holmes on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @02:48PM (#26571406)
I think this comes down to whether you agree that money == value, and that value == utility (i.e. that people will pay for things that they find useful)
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by fouric on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @06:00PM (#26573544)
...and, since many (not all) profitable activities turn out to be useful, financial incentives still end up incentivizing useful activities. For instance: [IDE company] employees are incentivized to develop [IDE], I buy [IDE], [company] makes a profit, and the value that I get out of [IDE] means that their activities were useful. Good stuff.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by anoncake on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:22PM (#26574380)
Sure. But others are entirely useless or even harmful. If you want people to implement dark patterns, tracking, advertising, or walled gardens, you have to pay them.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by cubano on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @12:08PM (#26569076)
you cannot possibly be postulating that profitable activities can never be considered useful, are you?
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by jascii on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @12:40PM (#26569557)
I do not see OP stating that "useful" and "profitable" are mutually exclusive. I think it is widely understood that there is "usefulness" that is not satisfied by profit driven organisations, that is why we have non-profits and public institutions.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by marcus_holmes on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @02:52PM (#26571436)
Call me cynical, but most non-profits seem to be more interested in paying salaries and fundraising than in the actual thing they're supposed to be "about".

And public institutions may serve a useful function, but again seem to be mostly about civil service powerbroking and providing extremely safe employment.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by jascii on Thursday March 25, 2021 @03:05PM (#26584092)
Fine, I'll call you cynical... ;P

There are certainly (often larger) nonprofits with a tendency of overpaying their leadership and/or pushing policies favored by their corporate funders. I would in this context however not conflate "most visible" (ie largest advertising budgets) with "most". Most nonprofits I have worked with are ran and operated by hardworking people on minimal budgets.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by wott on Thursday March 25, 2021 @05:57PM (#26585994)
Note that he didn't say overpaying, just paying. It is true that in all organisations (including those associations), as time passes, professionalisation progresses, headcount raises, administrative and secondary tasks develop; and self-preservation, self-replication become a goal of its own. There is a whole range of people (I don't mean leaders or managers, but bottom/middle people) who make a career in all those non-profits, para-public and semi-public associations (all of them living mostly from subsidies), hoping from one to another. At least it goes like that in my country, it has developed a lot in the last 30 years.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by rorykoehler on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @11:06AM (#26568152)
That’s a byproduct of capitalism with insufficient safety nets.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by viro on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @11:09AM (#26568190)
-_- I just wanna point out the homeless rate in China is higher than the United States, and you still have to pay rent in China too. So it's not really a capitalism problem its a being alive problem.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by rorykoehler on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @11:18AM (#26568317)
What does China have to do with this?
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by viro on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @11:20AM (#26568353)
@rorykoehler It's the most well known non capitalist society.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by jokethrowaway on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @01:22PM (#26570221)
People are downvoting you because it looks like you think China is a communist society and western countries are capitalist societies.

There is not much difference between China and western countries. Sure, China is a bit more oppressive (understatement of the year), but they both have element of capitalism and a huge set of coercitive and authoritarian laws which err on socialism.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by rorykoehler on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @11:34AM (#26568541)
China is a capitalist state in all but name.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by cheaprentalyeti on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @11:57AM (#26568885)
I'm beginning to think the whole "capitalist"/"communist" dialectic is meant to make people think there's a "capitalist" economic system or a "communist" economic system, whereas when the communists get control they make a "state capitalist" or "party capitalist" system that looks much like "capitalism" except it has a severely authoritarian political system (which everyone is told is a symptom of "capitalism.")

In other words, "communism" is an authoritarian/dictatorial political system that masquerades as an economic system until it doesn't have to put up with any dissent, at which point it goes back to "capitalism." (State or Party or whatever. I think they call their version "with chinese characteristics" in the west.)

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by simonh on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @12:43PM (#26569622)
The root problem is that redistributive systems are inherently coercive. If your system has money and commerce of any kind, more money will end up in some hands than others.

I'm not making a fundamental judgement on this, all laws are coercive in some sense, capitalist systems often have redistributive features, taxes and such.

However redistribution in the extreme and complete sense in communism is often characterised in utopian terms. From each according to their ability, to each according to their need. That's a fine sentiment, but it entails an awful lot of systematic and thorough coercion, and the virtual elimination of freedom in the distribution and use of capital, or in fact property or resources of any kind. This is why we keep getting the "no true scotsman" complaint that criticisms of communism are invalid because they are never 'real' communism. That doesn't account for the coercive and prescriptive nature of a thoroughgoing redistributive system run by a bureaucratic elite. Since they need the authority to redistribute all resources, they need effectively unlimited power. That's why they keep ending up becoming so corrupt.

To the extent that socialist systems retain any freedom in the use, exchange and accumulation of money, they become correspondingly capitalist. Hence communism with 'Chinese' (read capitalist) characteristics.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by jokethrowaway on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @01:32PM (#26570361)
While I agree with the sentiment of your post, you seem to be conflating capitalism with what countries you believe to be capitalist implement.

Most countries I can think of implement a mix of capitalism and socialism. Some features are capitalism, some are features of socialism.

Coercion and taxation are not capitalism, taxation is just theft operated by the state.

I consider the "no true scotsman" argument for communism to be valid: we never arrived to real communism and that's because it's impossible.

Communism can be achieved only if all the individuals of society are perfect; without that perfection the best you can achieve is a socialist dictatorship.

On the opposite (anarcho-capitalist) side, I think we should try to get rid of all our society socialist features and see if the free market can support us entirely. In my opinion, capitalism is not bad, we just don't have enough.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by simonh on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @02:13PM (#26570961)
I mostly agree with you, every country employs some mix of different economic systems.

I agree communism is impossible, that's why I think no true scotsman is an invalid criticism. My post was largely an attempt to explain why I think it's impossible and also actually undesirable. That's all just semantics though, I think we agree on the actual issue.

I disagree with your last paragraph. I oppose socialism as an ideology, as it is pursued by dyed in the wool socialists, but don't necessarily oppose all policies implemented in the name of socialism. I oppose ideologies generally, politically I support policies that have turned out to work, whatever the reasons might be.

For example I do believe in the power of free markets and that capitalism is essentially based on individual liberty. However for example here in the UK we have a very effective and beloved national health service. It's not perfect and might not be the system I would choose from scratch, with unlimited power to make it as I wished, but it works and I would oppose any attempts to radically reform it. There's just too much that's good about it that we could break. Maggie, one of my political heroes, tried to reform it along market lines in the 80s and it was disastrous.

But then there are historical reasons why Britain has some of it's economic and political settlements. Social consensus is important and what works for us might not work for others with different traditions, institutions and expectations.

Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by rorykoehler on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @03:04PM (#26571578)
Anarcho-capitalism will fail for the same reasons you stated communism will fail. 5% of people have psychopathic personality traits. For society that is like someone shitting in the bath water. We’ll end up looking like a narco-state.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by rorykoehler on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @12:39PM (#26569542)
If you read Das Kapital the only logical conclusion to draw is that this will eventually happen. Marx said something along the lines of capitalism will eat everything including itself. Communism cannot survive in a world where capitalism is active.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by ohmeego on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @02:13PM (#26570958)
In fact with the last go round of Linux phones(Nokia N900/N9), the app store was just a gui in front of apt.
Re:PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder by swiley on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @10:16AM (#26567500)
Now many individual app developers are feeding their family with app store installs vs the individual OSS developers doing the same?