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Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by tybris on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @10:44AM (#2653162)
I now understand that BitCoin is actually an experiment to teach people basic economics and why many of today's rules and institutions (e.g., banks) exist. Sorry for criticizing it. BitCoin is an awesome educational tool.
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by ch0wn on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:22AM (#2653361)
Bitcoin is not money on the bank, but cash. If your wallet is stolen, the bank will not refund you, either. You can, however, go to the police and that is what the victim here is doing as well. There is, of course, a much lower chance of catching the thief than there would be with real cash.
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by hugh3 on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:51AM (#2653503)
Yep, which is why if you have $500K you keep it in the bank and not in your wallet. (Err, not that $500K would fit in your wallet, but anyway...)

Bitcoin has no "bank" equivalent.

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by Jetlag on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @01:05PM (#2653796)
Except you can put a wallet on a thumb drive, and literally put it in a bank (safe deposit box).
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by burgerbrain on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @02:07PM (#2654031)
Exactly, make sure the only copies of the wallets with your money are on non-networked, non-running hardware, preferably just straight up storage media, and secure it physically. You can make it as secure as you can possibly make anything. Hell, you could even get it insured.
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by abofh on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @02:05PM (#2654025)
Though interestingly, your bank isn't generally required to repay you for losses in your safe deposit box unless it arises from their negligence.
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by erikpukinskis on Wednesday June 15, 2011 @11:38AM (#2657517)
Probably makes sense to print it out on a sheet of paper and put it in there too.
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by noglorp on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @04:48PM (#2654693)
What do you call exchanges that hold an on-site balance?

I'm also fairly sure there are several brands trying to provide a "bitcoin banking service".

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by rick888 on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @05:14PM (#2654776)
not decentralized?
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by phlux on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @02:46PM (#2654198)
I have spent very little time thinking about bitcoin, so I really am not qualified to say anything for or against it - however I have a question that seems ridiculously obvious:

WHY would you implement the digital version of cash, as it seems you just stated -- WHY would you create a digital currency with no ability to really track and disable and refund?

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by glenra on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @06:25PM (#2655038)
Kind of the whole point of digital currency is to evade tracking. A currency that is truly anonymous is more generally useful than one that isn't. The same features that make it easy to steal also make it easy to spend.

The US government won't let you leave with more than $10k in physical cash without "declaring" it, but declaring exposes you to likely theft by the government in the form of civil forfeiture or tax seizure, as does carrying it past TSA. Your bank won't let you wire-transfer large amounts without having to file a bunch of CTRs, again exposing you to potential legal liability. Making transactions in smaller amounts to avoid notice of the big amounts - even if you're doing so to avoid private thieves - is a federal crime called "structuring". Credit card companies solve some of the problem but can randomly "put a hold" on your funds without your consent.

Digital cash is trying to fill the role that cash used to fill before the War On Some Drugs made everything insane. Back when the government printed $500 bills and $1000 bills and it wasn't deemed "suspicious" to use them. In the modern age, digital cash promises to let us buy things around the world, "no questions asked", without banks and governments and other middlemen getting in the way.

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by wmf on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @04:46PM (#2654685)
Overhead is (supposed to be) lower with cash.
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by byrneseyeview on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:00AM (#2653265)
What prevents you from setting up a BitCoin bank?

More interestingly: are the features that let you set up a dollar-denominated bank features or bugs?

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by krschultz on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @12:10PM (#2653577)
This is one of the casualities of the Bitcoin monetary policy.

(Obviously I'm simplifying, your money gets pooled with others and deposits and withdrawls happen from a pool of money, you don't get your own money back when you withdraw, but lets compare two hypothetical banks with only 1 customer each)

A dollar denominated bank takes your money and invests it. They use it for mortgages, or they put it in bond markets or equity markets. They make a profit. Some of that profit gets returned to you as interest. They also provide for safe keeping of the money. With interest rates near zero, we forget this, but thats the real reason for a bank. If it was just a safe place to keep money, we'd be paying them.

A Bitcoin bank couldn't work. You give them some Bitcoins. They transfer them to dollars, make some investments. Now you go to withdraw some money and they have to sell the investments. Since Bitcoins are deflationary, they can not make you whole without incurring a loss. There is no money to be made in operating a Bitcoin bank and giving interest so long as the exchange rate of Bitcoins to the real world keeps going the way its going. Everyone should just sit on their bitcoins and hold them.

Now if you just want to make a safe deposit box for Bitcoins, that's would work. And you would have to pay a fee. But there is a difference between a bank account and a safe deposit box, and I don't see bank accounts working with bitcoin any more so than they would have worked based on tulip bulbs in the 80s.

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by geon on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @06:03PM (#2654966)
> You give them some Bitcoins. They transfer them to dollars

It should work just fine if they do the investments in Bitcoins.

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by drblast on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @12:57PM (#2653767)
What you described is not how banks or money work.

Below is an entertaining, albeit slightly alarmist, educational video on how the money system works today. This should be required viewing for anyone considering using money:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by thomasz on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @01:40PM (#2653928)
I don't want to risk wasting 45 minutes listening to a crackpot, and honestly, there are quite a few indicators for lunacy in the first few minutes. Can you give a few bullet points to help me decide if it's worth to watch?
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by nhaehnle on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @04:43PM (#2654670)
I haven't checked the video (can't watch it here), but there are indeed many misconceptions about how the banking system operates.

In particular, banks do not lend out deposits, at least not in any meaningful way, and the so-called money multiplier is non-existent.

To get up to speed on such things, I would recommend the blogs of economics professor Bill Mitchell. His style is a bit rambling without much polish, since he writes one entry every day, but I found it very worthwhile for getting a deeper understanding. Consider looking for entries with "money multiplier" in the title in the index here: http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?page_id=1667

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by drblast on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @05:49PM (#2654928)
It talks about the history of banking and the fractional reserve system, the difference between commercial and central bank money.

What most people don't realize is that banks don't have to actually have the money they lend out. That's the basis for our monetary system and while it has nice qualities, like spurring innovation, there are some undeniable drawbacks.

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by anigbrowl on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @07:01PM (#2655182)
You know these concepts are explained in any first-year economics textbook, yes?
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by stef25 on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:21AM (#2653357)
How would a bank stop you from getting taken to the cleaners if an outsider got access to your bank account in malicious ways?
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by recoiledsnake on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @12:02PM (#2653552)
The point is that is a little bit harder and more traceable than having to manage files(all your money) yourself. There is at least a semblance of security and the bank/govt will make good if someone breaks into the bank and steals all the cash there.
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by recoiledsnake on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:07AM (#2653288)
Banks are regulated by law and have the funds insured by FDIC. i.e even if the bank goes belly up, the FDIC will make sure the depositors get the money. With BitCoin, how do you trust a bank? Even if it's just by word-of-mouth trust, eventually the bank will be taken over or run by non-trustworthy people. The threat of federal prison keeps most real banks honest. Nothing like that exists in the BTC world.
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by byrneseyeview on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:28AM (#2653394)
Well, ultimately what you're saying is that you trust the FDIC more than you trust any given bank. That's nice, but it begs the question:

- Will the FDIC fulfill its obligations at all times?

- How does the FDIC have the resources to do so?

- Does the presence of the FDIC lead to better or worse behavior among banks?

It's especially interesting to look at the issue of non-trustworthy people. When S&Ls were semi-deregulated in the early 80's, they got extra FDIC protection and were allowed to lend to a wider variety of projects. Suddenly, the credit decisions of the bank didn't matter, because the FDIC backstopped their deposits. And that attracted some really non-trustworthy people.

Wikipedia says the total cleanup cost was $87.9 billion, which discounts the opportunity cost from building pointless malls and empty offices. Can you imagine a BitCoin-based system ever hitting that level of losses?

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by timbowhite on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:17AM (#2653341)
Banks also inflate the money supply using fractional reserve banking, effectively diminishing the value of every other dollar in active currency.

If you think that is honest behavior, then bury all your money for 10 years and then try to spend it. Suprise! You've been robbed.

If I'm not mistaken, there is an eventual limit on the amount of bitcoins that can ever be created.

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by jonknee on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:22AM (#2653359)
That's not entirely a negative... We're better off that people are incentivized to not bury all their money. Deflationary spirals are no fun.
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by timbowhite on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:40AM (#2653453)
I agree that circulation of currency/commodities is necessary for a healthy economy. I don't agree that we're better off having value stolen from our currency by inflating it for the sake of "incentive".

How many joe sixpacks actually spend their money as quickly as possible because they're afraid of inflation? Hopefully it never comes to that.

> Deflationary spirals are no fun. $5/gallon of gas and $7/gallon of orange juice are no fun either.

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by gacek on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:24AM (#2653372)
Banks inflate the money without creating (printing) it physically. I guess a bank taking deposits and giving loans in bitcoins would do just the same.
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by recoiledsnake on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:24AM (#2653371)
>If you think that is honest behavior, then bury all your money for 10 years and then try to spend it. Suprise! You've been robbed.

That does induce people to spend,invest or save(savings in banks are loaned out to others by the banks) which drives the economy.

The problem with bitcoin right now is that it's being thought of an investment to hold on to, instead of a currency that must be exchanged for goods.

Imagine if the dollar was appreciating in value big time every week and month. People would stop spending and just hog them. The economy as we know if might collapse and lead to a full blown depression.

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by timbowhite on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:46AM (#2653480)
> instead of a currency that must be exchanged for goods.

My prediction is the bitcoin market will correct itself, as markets without interference do. Bitcoins are intrinsically worthless, like the USD, unless it can be exchange for goods/services.

> Imagine if the dollar was appreciating in value big time every week and month.

As long as a central banking authority (Federal Reserve) can legally make dollars from thin air, this will never happen.

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by recoiledsnake on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:54AM (#2653516)
The problem is that people are using BitCoin as a 'Get Rich Quick' scheme instead of a currency. While this does drive adoption, some lives may be destroyed on the way because of market manipulation by malicious parties. How many legitimate transactions are happening compared to transactions with an intent to hoard BitCoins for future gains?
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by Astrohacker on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:10AM (#2653304)
> Banks are regulated by law and have the funds insured by FDIC. i.e even if the bank goes belly up, the FDIC will make sure the depositors get the money. With BitCoin, how do you trust a bank?

There were banks before the FDIC and people trusted them. The threat of insolvency can (but doesn't always) keep them honest.

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by recoiledsnake on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:36AM (#2653430)
True, but atleast the banks were real physical places with real people at the helm. It is really hard to trust anything over the internet these days,except if one of the big financial players like Citibank or someone like Amazon starts a bitcoin bank.

AFAIK any of the online banks could be running out of a hole in the wall in Ukraine or Nigeria. Even paying online sites with credit cards is risky these days with the rampant fraud etc, I wouldn't trust anything online only enough to entrust my money unless backed by a big player.

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by glenra on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @06:32PM (#2655068)
> except if one of the big financial players like Citibank or someone like Amazon starts a bitcoin bank.

That's part of how the market solves this sort of problem, traditionally. When trustworthiness is especially valuable, brands develop that have it. One way to bootstrap the process is to start with an existing brand that has it, like American Express. Companies that want to be seen as trustworthy can also do things like offering money-back guarantees and putting money aside in an escrow account held by a third party.

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by scythe on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:57AM (#2653530)
>Banks are regulated by law and have the funds insured by FDIC.

And following the train of logic, what prevents you from regulating a bitcoin bank?

Crypto-currency is kind of like cash. Yes, you're a fool to try and run an entire economy with cash, but that doesn't mean it should disappear!

Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by hcho on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:11AM (#2653305)
How did people trust banks before FDIC?
Re:Computer compromise leads to theft of bitcoins valued at ... by jarin on Tuesday June 14, 2011 @11:15AM (#2653334)
They didn't, necessarily. Banks were just a place to get loans and a slightly more secure place to keep money than a hole in the back yard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Deposit_Insurance_Corpo...