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Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by chizhik-pyzhik on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:53PM (#26441941)
It is a problem. That's a big reason for moving from proof-of-work to proof-of-stake- to more directly make the _holders_ of Ethereum in charge of the chain.

It's a difficult thing to do, though. Hashpower based mining is easier to get going. Proof of stake has issues like the nothing-at-stake problem, where theoretically you could stake-mine on multiple chains: https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/2402/what-exact...

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by hertzrat on Friday March 12, 2021 @07:27PM (#26442668)
Isn’t half of our current money supply controlled by 1% of people? If the asset holders controlled things, why wouldn’t they just demand everyone else hand over their cash?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/richest-1-percent-control-more-...

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by jerf on Friday March 12, 2021 @09:43PM (#26443422)
That's a good question.

Imagine what would happen if one person held literally all the money. It may be easier to imagine a 100-person community rather than the whole world.

One thing that would have to happen is everyone else would develop their own money/currency, which would turn mean that the one person with all the money is no longer the one person with all the money.

A thing quite likely to happen is that everyone would decide that whatever the money is that the one person has, everybody would decide it is not money.

It isn't entirely dissimilar from me claiming I have all the Jerfoleans on the world, and what the world is really doing about that currency right now. They're worth a zero so zero-y that even an infinite number of them is still worth a flat zero. Someone who has "all the money" might find themselves in a similar boat.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by d0mine on Friday March 12, 2021 @10:09PM (#26443554)
More likely the one person would hire some people to convince the rest that it in their best interests that all money belong to the one person or even more likely to provide to the people some distraction, destroy the notion of the facts, so they wouldn't even know to ask inconvenient questions.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by Dolores12 on Friday March 12, 2021 @10:35PM (#26443684)
Money used to represent the value backed up by gold in bank storage. Nowadays its just a paper, so indeed its easy to create new money.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by jwolfe on Friday March 12, 2021 @11:37PM (#26443995)
Not that gold has a massive magical intrinsic value. That was also arbitrary.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by gorgoiler on Friday March 12, 2021 @11:49PM (#26444045)
It is hard to mine and hard to find.

If you make a fresh piece of gold and show it to the world, you are proving that you have done some known — or at least bounded — amount of work.

In gold’s case, that work is gas, electricity, and human labor. If someone shows up with gold that cost less to produce, the price goes down.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by panarky on Saturday March 13, 2021 @01:15AM (#26444433)
> proving that you have done some known — or at least bounded — amount of work

Work for the sake of work is not valuable.

You could record video proving that you dug a hole 20 feet deep with your bare hands and then filled it up again.

That's a lot of work, but it wouldn't be valuable to anyone, except maybe as comedy.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by justushamalaine on Saturday March 13, 2021 @10:22AM (#26447139)
Well cards against humanity did that and the hole was worth over 100k!

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/nov/28/cards-aga...

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by _flux on Saturday March 13, 2021 @02:12AM (#26444672)
The video wouldn't be valuable, because it's trivial to duplicate.

However, should it be impossible to copy videos and the only way to do a video would be to capture the events as they happen, then perhaps your video would have value.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by riffraff on Saturday March 13, 2021 @03:25AM (#26444996)
I'm surprised there aren't a ton of NFTs for videos of people digging holes and filling them up, riffing on both "proof of work" and keynesian ideas.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by imtringued on Monday March 15, 2021 @05:59AM (#26464128)
The reasoning behind keynesian gold digging is that rich people will not accept that the government hands out money to poor people because that would threaten private businesses who are dependent on cheap labor. To make sure that the government money doesn't compete with private money you just force people to do worthless work so that working as a waiter for minimum wage is still more attractive than digging holes in summer heat. The entire point is that digging holes sucks. Meanwhile cryptocurrencies glorify digging holes.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by iamacyborg on Saturday March 13, 2021 @03:57AM (#26445130)
Why do actual work when you can just sell somebody elses as your own?
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by JumpCrisscross on Saturday March 13, 2021 @06:57AM (#26445998)
> If you make a fresh piece of gold and show it to the world, you are proving that you have done some known — or at least bounded — amount of work

Making origami pirate ships also requires a certain amount of work. That doesn’t give it value.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by stonesweep on Saturday March 13, 2021 @08:19AM (#26446350)
Much like Ethereum, gold has an actual use post discovery/creation but your origami crane does not (outside of artistic value and testing for replicants) - GP did not go into the details, but they chose an appropriate analogy - origami cranes, not so much. Fun trivia: NASA uses a bunch of gold https://spinoff.nasa.gov/spinoff1997/hm2.html
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by jkhdigital on Saturday March 13, 2021 @10:51AM (#26447338)
Value density is the differentiator. The amount of work required to produce a single ounce of gold is many orders of magnitude greater than the ancillary costs of storing or transporting that ounce.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by vincnetas on Saturday March 13, 2021 @03:02AM (#26444893)
And exactly that happened to aluminium. After its discovery its cost was bigger than gold. Until more effective ways to ectract it were discovered. That does not mean that aluminium is useless.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by belltaco on Friday March 12, 2021 @07:51PM (#26442828)
Because the 1% isn't homogenous and a lot of them will want to keep the system working instead of killing the goose that lays the golden egg. The 1% is about 1.5 million people. Good luck getting most of them organized for a certain cause that will result in destruction of wealth mid term at the latest.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by carlob on Saturday March 13, 2021 @03:35AM (#26445035)
The 1% Is 1.5 millions iff the 100% is 150 millions, which is what population exactly?
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by belltaco on Saturday March 13, 2021 @10:05AM (#26447014)
The people that file tax returns in the US https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/filing-season-statistics-for-we...

I picked that because I didn't think if babies and non-earners were included when calculating the top 1% of highest earners.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by kubanczyk on Saturday March 13, 2021 @08:00AM (#26446259)
Bangladesh? (160 mln actually)

I think they could mean a total number of crypto users, recently estimated to be over 100 mln.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by drcode on Friday March 12, 2021 @07:47PM (#26442803)
(1) even a 51% attack can't generate fake transactions to transfer that money

(2) social power with blockchains (i.e. having people's ears on the social networks) is far more important than $$ power: If nobody wants to install and use your blockchain, no amount of $$ can fix that.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by akimball on Saturday March 13, 2021 @08:35AM (#26446450)
Re (1): True, in that the committed transactions would not be fake. But calling eth “money” is...not accurate. It has value but lacks moneyness.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by ZephyrBlu on Friday March 12, 2021 @10:56PM (#26443800)
Here's a couple of reasons why it probably wouldn't go this way:

1) Ethereum already has a market cap of $73B [0]. That's a lot of money.

2) Controlling 51% of Ethereum would probably cause the value of it to drop [1].

So you'd spend a lot of money to control Ethereum and then end up with something that's far less valuable than it was before you took control. Not really sure what you'd get out of doing that.

[0] https://en.ethereumworldnews.com/ethereums-market-cap-is-big...

[1] https://ethereum.org/en/developers/docs/consensus-mechanisms...

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by gruez on Friday March 12, 2021 @10:58PM (#26443824)
>2) Controlling 51% of Ethereum would probably cause the value of it to drop [1].

I think you're misinterpreting the paragraph. It's not that controlling 51% will cause the value to drop (it won't, see bitcoin miner control), it's that controlling 51% and trying to pull off an attack will cause it to drop.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by ZephyrBlu on Friday March 12, 2021 @11:20PM (#26443932)
> To do so, you'd need to control 51% of the staked ETH. Not only is this a lot of money but it would probably cause ETH's value to drop

To me "it" is pretty clearly referring to controlling 51% of staked ETH.

I don't know about the economics behind whether that would cause the value of ETH to decrease, but Bitcoin seems like a different situation altogether since miners don't control the the cryptocurrency itself.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by gruez on Friday March 12, 2021 @11:34PM (#26443985)
And how does the ethereum network differentiate two people with different wallets and one person with two wallets? Short of attaching some sort of real world identity to ethereum wallets it's impossible to tell whether someone controls 51% of staked ETH because it's trivial to split that up.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by bluecalm on Friday March 12, 2021 @11:13PM (#26443893)
The article is about wealth, not money supply. Those are completely different concept. There could theoretically be a lot of wealth and very little money (if no one wants to trade there isn't much needed) or not so much wealth and a lot of money (a lot of people need loans to trade and build wealth).

It's convenient to measure wealth in dollars in a "how much you could get if you still it" way and it's possible because dollars are very stable but there is very little reason for the amount of dollars circulating to represent existing wealth.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by capableweb on Saturday March 13, 2021 @08:47AM (#26446522)
> why wouldn’t they just demand everyone else hand over their cash?

Because it's not in their best interest. If the 1% pulled something like that off, the price would drop a lot and therefore their ETH would be worth less.

It's one of the core pillars of any blockchain, that the incentives are aligned in a way so the best outcome for people is the one where the gain the most, so it forces them to go for that way.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by gonational on Friday March 12, 2021 @11:39PM (#26444000)
Yeah.

That's what they do. That's what inflation is. We work hard and save up $100,000, they (the 1%) turn that into $25,000 in 25 years.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by incrudible on Saturday March 13, 2021 @05:19AM (#26445536)
Nobody forces you to hold cash for 25 years. In fact, you are given many incentives to invest it, inflation being just one.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by gonational on Saturday March 13, 2021 @11:45AM (#26447739)
This is true.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by DennisP on Saturday March 13, 2021 @09:47AM (#26446886)
Nothing-at-stake is a solved problem in Ethereum's PoS.

The basic idea is that stakers' deposits act as security bonds. If a staker commits to two conflicting chains, any other staker can see that they did so, and get rewarded for publishing a proof of that. Then the cheating staker gets their stake destroyed on both chains.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by jkhdigital on Saturday March 13, 2021 @11:02AM (#26447416)
There is a deeper problem with PoS, which is about where the value of the staked token comes from in the first place. PoW ties this to the burning of real-world value, specifically electricity which is about as close to distilled economic value as you can get. Ethereum is trying to bootstrap value with PoW and then switch, but I have strong doubts that this is a sustainable solution.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by mratsim on Saturday March 13, 2021 @04:57PM (#26450402)
It's the same when currencies around the world stopped using the gold standard and became floating across each other.

I'd say the value of currencies is that you have to pay your taxes in one that is legal tender. In that case, the value of Eth is that you have to pay transaction fees in Eth. You decided how valuable those transactions are.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by jkhdigital on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:35PM (#26451595)
Governments have a monopoly on issuing fiat currencies, but for PoS cryptocurrencies there is no enforced scarcity—any DApp that can run on Ethereum can easily run on any of an infinite number of Ethereum clones, so why bother using the expensive congested network?
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by mratsim on Sunday March 14, 2021 @01:56AM (#26453357)
I think you have the chain of causality wrong.

The Ethereum network is congested because it has users. Ethereum has the critical mass and first mover advantage.

The clones need to be sufficiently attractive (10x ?) to break that hold, it's not a technical problem but an economic, marketing and educational one.

Scarcity is unrelated to network congestion or usage.

Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by imtringued on Monday March 15, 2021 @06:05AM (#26464157)
When you sell your Bitcoin for Ethereum you have to pay taxes in dollars. The specific value is dependent on the ability to exchange it for goods and services but the fact that it will remain valuable (but not how valuable) in the future is secured by taxation. Who knows what is going to happen with Bitcoin? It may get replaced by Ethereum entirely.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by DennisP on Saturday March 13, 2021 @11:12AM (#26447496)
Coin value is not based on electricity usage in PoW. Due to difficulty adjustment, electricity usage is an effect of coin value, not a cause. If coin value goes up, mining becomes more profitable, more miners jump in, and electricity usage goes up. If coin value drops, the opposite happens.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by jkhdigital on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:29PM (#26451562)
Coin value is a social phenomenon anyway, so it’s kind of meaningless to assign cause and effect. My point was that electricity usage in PoW provides an external metric for assigning exchange value to the coin which is not self-referential, unlike in PoS.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by discardable_dan on Saturday March 13, 2021 @12:16AM (#26444186)
Imagine if you owned a billion dollars, and that allowed you to say if someone spent 10 dollars at the gas station.
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by arbol on Saturday March 13, 2021 @03:12AM (#26444940)
Are you suggesting censorship might be an issue?
Re:Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack by gverrilla on Saturday March 13, 2021 @09:03AM (#26446635)
can you tell us more? what are you refering to?