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Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by ceejayoz on Thursday March 11, 2021 @09:37AM (#26424415)
Amateur astronomers are very good at spotting national security payloads after launch.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/06/mappi...

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by Cthulhu_ on Thursday March 11, 2021 @09:57AM (#26424613)
And if amateur astronomers can do it, a well-funded national space agency can do it even better. I'm 100% sure that any launch is picked up via radar and sattelites and the like when they happen, and various properties extracted and extrapolated to determine their target orbit.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if some known launches also contained some unknown payloads. Stealth technology on a satellite would probably thwart detection in space well enough.

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by ceejayoz on Thursday March 11, 2021 @10:21AM (#26424932)
> Stealth technology on a satellite would probably thwart detection in space well enough.

Stealth is great for radar, but even the B-2 can be spotted pretty easily via the Mk 1 eyeball. Satellites also have to have radiators, which limits what you can manage.

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by sandworm101 on Thursday March 11, 2021 @12:09PM (#26426348)
>> but even the B-2 can be spotted pretty easily via the Mk 1 eyeball.

It has a visual cloaking device too. It isn't terribly complicated. The bottom of the aircraft is a particular color. If you fly at an altitude that the sky above is the same color as the bottom of your plane, people on the ground cannot see you. So a tiny camera pointed up can be used to calibrate the altitude to best hide.

Also see counterillumination, a trick used by many sea creatures to hide from things below them. I doubt the B2 uses this but the military has studied it as an option in the past.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29543/the-visible-hist...

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by ceejayoz on Thursday March 11, 2021 @12:30PM (#26426611)
The article would seem to indicate it helps, but certainly doesn't get you all the way there.

> Modern stealth aircraft, such as the F-117 Nighthawk attack jet and B-2 Spirit bomber, are painted in matte black or dark grey and are flown at night to limit their visual signature.

Can't really do that in space; you've got a day/night cycle ever 90 minutes or so.

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by sandworm101 on Thursday March 11, 2021 @12:44PM (#26426777)
Space is black. Even in daylight, the background behind an object in space is always black (except when passing in front of the sun). A black plane against a blue sky stands out. A black satellite against the black of space does not. Or a blue plane against a blue background.

The F117 is black and only flew at night, at lower levels. The bottom of the B2 isn't actually black, more a dark grey with a bit of blue in it. And the top of the aircraft is more sea blue than black at most angles. Someone thought long and hard about those colors, about not just painting it all black like the F117.

https://www.thedrive.com/content/2019/08/b-2-top-2.jpg

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by ceejayoz on Thursday March 11, 2021 @01:05PM (#26427019)
> A black satellite against the black of space does not.

It sure heats up fast, though. Radiating enough heat not to roast the electronics is already an issue for satellites with shiny coatings to keep heat from the sun out.

There's a good, detailed explanation of how hard stealth in space is at https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/23313/stea....

There've been efforts towards stealthier craft. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misty_(satellite)

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by bigiain on Thursday March 11, 2021 @10:11PM (#26431857)
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/06/kiwi-astr...

The ISS is way bigger than a highly classified satellite, but I'd guess a lot of nation states have way better capability than some guy with a telescope in his back yard in New Zealand.

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by vesrah on Thursday March 11, 2021 @03:08PM (#26428423)
Wouldn't you then find the satellites by looking for star occultation?
Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by kchr on Thursday March 11, 2021 @11:50AM (#26426082)
> Mk 1 eyeball

I giggled.

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by mrlonglong on Thursday March 11, 2021 @12:07PM (#26426321)
I really want to upgrade to Mk 2 eyeballs, maybe with some new receptors to see extra colours, infrared and ultraviolet. Maybe the capability to see polarised light too.
Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by rrmm on Thursday March 11, 2021 @12:14PM (#26426411)
Apparently many people have some capability to see polarised light under certain circumstances: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haidinger%27s_brush
Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by mindcrime on Thursday March 11, 2021 @12:28PM (#26426590)
Great, NCSU should be able to whip you up something like that soon:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26400218

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by tbabb on Thursday March 11, 2021 @03:40PM (#26428757)
> Stealth technology on a satellite would probably thwart detection in space well enough.

I bet you could make a satellite look like a stray screw or fleck of paint with enough effort. Careful geometry and surface design can reduce the radar cross section to a tiny fraction; some ultrablack coating and judicious heat rejection could make it look effectively invisible to optical and IR. Power with an RTG to avoid glints and radar scatter from solar panels.

And I'm sort of geeking out thinking about how you could misdirect observers about the payload's path— release a very shiny dummy payload, and then release the real thing some time before or after. Or pull a Millennium Falcon gambit and release the actual payload from a disposed fairing or stage when no one's looking...

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by ceejayoz on Thursday March 11, 2021 @03:46PM (#26428814)
> Or pull a Millennium Falcon gambit and release the actual payload from a disposed fairing or stage when no one's looking...

There was some speculation over that approach with the failed launch of the Zuma satellite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuma_(satellite)

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by 0xdeadbeefbabe on Thursday March 11, 2021 @01:28PM (#26427267)
> And if amateur astronomers can do it, a well-funded national space agency can do it even better.

This confidence in agencies and funding is puzzling to me.

Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by rrmm on Thursday March 11, 2021 @09:56AM (#26424602)
Yup. Easy to do for most adversary nation-states as well, but the NRO still doesn't allow the SpaceX livestream to follow stage 2.
Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by ceejayoz on Thursday March 11, 2021 @10:12AM (#26424823)
Yeah, over-classification is definitely a thing. I suspect they don't want close-up video imagery of the payloads out there, either.
Re:Receiving SpaceX Falcon 9 Telemetry with a HackRF and 1.2... by _Microft on Thursday March 11, 2021 @10:05AM (#26424718)
Maybe it's possible to detect radio echoes off the rocket exhaust trail (passively) like it is possible to do with meteors [0][1] and roughly tell where the second stage is (just for the sake of doing it this way).

[0] https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/antennas-propagat...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_burst_communications