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Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by AlchemistCamp on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @06:31PM (#26417989)
The most surprising part to me was that go devs are feeling less and less welcome in "the community" and less and less welcome to contribute.

I wonder why that is.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by epage on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:27PM (#26418995)
As an outsider, my guess is not "bad contributors" or "diversity" like sibling posters but an increasing perception that Go is a Google language and not a community language with how events have played out in scenarios like the package management work where a replacement for what the community was doing came seemingly out of nowhere despite the community trying to work with the core team

Note: I could have facts wrong but this is the general impression left which is just as important for respondents on this survey item.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by jidiculous on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:57PM (#26419219)
It is 100% a Google language. Step 0 of their contributor guidelines is to use a Google product (ie a Google account) for authorship of your commits[1]. It's insane to me that this is required for contribution to the language's development.

[1]: https://golang.org/doc/contribute#google_account

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by AlchemistCamp on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @09:45PM (#26419581)
Wow. That is egregious.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by tick_tock_tick on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @07:48PM (#26418693)
Google and the core Golang team are getting increasing political and allowing it to leak into the language / infrastructure of the language such a running banner ads for political causes on the main the docs site, https://golang.org/doc. It's not surprising that this makes people feel less welcome.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by covermydonkey on Thursday March 11, 2021 @03:25AM (#26421650)
A big part of why I felt unwelcome was their unwavering commitment to American political activism. I don't live there. Why do I need to hear about some countries politics in my favorite programming language.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by c0bruhh on Thursday March 11, 2021 @08:40AM (#26423874)
If a few-pixel-high banner at the top of the documentation website is ALL it takes for you to get turned off from programming, maybe this isn't for you? Everything in the world is political. If you can't handle that, maybe you need to fix some other issues before tackling programming.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by domano on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:09PM (#26418858)
I don't see any banner
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by giardini on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:14PM (#26418900)
The top line of the page is "Black Lives Matter. Support the Equal Justice Initiative."
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by throwaway894345 on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:17PM (#26418915)
I don’t think it shows up on mobile. It also includes a donation link.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by pstuart on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @07:56PM (#26418753)
I can only imagine one group of people who would feel less welcome by that banner.

I'd be happy to expand upon that if you would like.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by tick_tock_tick on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:06PM (#26418833)
Sure! Feel free to expand on it I would be interested in hearing what you have to say. I hope it's at-least nuanced enough to understand that people can be turned away from a programing language's community when it starts to focus on political movements and other aspects unrelated to the language itself even if they don't disagree?

That's not even accounting for how perhaps the focus exclusively on American issues could leave the the rest of the world feeling less welcome?

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by monocasa on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:12PM (#26418878)
FWIW, BLM wasn't just an American movement but has had sizeable protests across the world as well.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by throwaway894345 on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:35PM (#26419067)
The protests in America don’t make much sense as it is—obviously we would expect police deaths to mirror trends in crime, socio-economic status, etc. But in countries like the U.K. where one third of their police killings in a whole year are a terrorist who was in the middle of a stabbing spree? That’s just ideological fashion.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by monocasa on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @09:09PM (#26419323)
> ...obviously we would expect police deaths to mirror trends in crime, socio-economic status...

If you look at the data in aggragate, I believe you'll find that there's a disparity even when controlling for factors like that.

> But in countries like the U.K. where one third of their police killings in a whole year are a terrorist who was in the middle of a stabbing spree? That’s just ideological fashion.

British police don't carry firearms in the general case so obviously police deaths aren't a large issue for British BLM, but there's still very much a racial disparity in justice system encounters that still exists despite controlling for the kinds of factors you listed previously. Different sentences for the same crime kind of stuff.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by throwaway894345 on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @11:15PM (#26420141)
> If you look at the data in aggragate, I believe you'll find that there's a disparity even when controlling for factors like that.

I’m almost certain that this isn’t the case. I think the crime rate alone accounts for the whole disparity and then some. I’ll dig up sources when I have more time. My best steel man is that police are profiling blacks in their killings; blacks do commit more crimes, but whether or not a particular black person commits crimes may not feature strongly in whether or not he is likely to be killed by police. In any case, the more important detail is that we didn’t even talk about it. Anyone who suggested as much was immediately dismissed as a racist; the media never even entertained the question.

> British police don't carry firearms in the general case so obviously police deaths aren't a large issue for British BLM, but there's still very much a racial disparity in justice system encounters that still exists despite controlling for the kinds of factors you listed previously. Different sentences for the same crime kind of stuff.

Perhaps, but it’s very strange to me that the U.K. would respond to subtler forms of alleged discrimination the similarly to how the US responded to graphic videos of black men being killed by police. I won’t argue the point since it’s all speculation either way.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by robobob on Thursday March 11, 2021 @03:56AM (#26421827)
Look at this thread, a perfect example: We’re now not talking about the go developer survey, lost focus on the topic. Why? I want tech, enough social problems everywhere else I look.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by throwaway894345 on Thursday March 11, 2021 @09:22AM (#26424267)
I agree with you, but we got here because the go developers plastered their controversial political views all over their tech site and people are remarking that this might be part of the reason why people aren’t (per the survey) feeling as welcome in the community.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by pstuart on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @09:15PM (#26419377)
> The protests in America don’t make much sense as it is

It makes sense to millions of Americans, including those who are not directly impacted by it.

If by "protest" you mean the violence that has sprouted up at these events, then no, that makes no sense at all for the cause itself. But it does make perfect sense for those who want to delegitimize it, e.g., https://www.startribune.com/police-umbrella-man-was-a-white-...

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by throwaway894345 on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @11:23PM (#26420211)
No, I mean the cause and it’s rationale. The “disparity thus discrimination” logic with no mind for other factors. The absolute refusal of anyone to look at any of the equally heinous murders of white Americans by police. I don’t want to delegitimize BLM; I don’t know for fact that the BLM folks are wrong and I remain open minded, but I’m disgusted by so much of how it played out—the dodgy rhetoric, the agitators, the divisiveness, the racial dogma, the violence, and much more. There are some good things that have come out of it—90% of Americans favor police reforms; it raised awareness for that, although we’ll see if it manifests in (substantial, non-symbolic) policy. Anyway, I hope the bad is all in the past and we can move forward.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by pstuart on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @10:23PM (#26419814)
Wait, so you don't disagree with the BLM movement but you think its in poor taste to include it as a sign of support? Being that the tech industry has historically been dominated by white men, wouldn't you think that any PoC visitors might feel more welcome?

Why would a non-US visitor feel unwelcome seeing that? Why w

And as far as it being a political message, that's also a matter of branding. It's been actively demonized by one particular party, whereas most of its supporters likely consider it to be apolitical -- simply about social justice.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by rattray on Thursday March 11, 2021 @09:08AM (#26424145)
(disclaimer, I have donated to BLM causes and don't consume Fox News)

I think you have you answer in there - anyone who watches/reads Fox News or similar thinks that BLM is something very different than you think it is.

You can choose to write off anyone in the world who watches conservative TV, but you can't call yourself welcoming for doing so.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by dsnr on Thursday March 11, 2021 @01:52AM (#26421084)
> Why would a non-US visitor feel unwelcome seeing that?

As a non-US visitor with some knowledge of history I am extremely put off by the banner supporting an extremist communist organization, like it is nothing. Just have a look at their original manifesto that is now removed from their website (wayback machine has it).

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by whatthesmack on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:14PM (#26418898)
Regardless of your personal opinions and/or biases, it is still a political banner containing the name of a political advocacy group on a software development tool project page with what I'm sure is a very diverse set of users.

Some folks actively avoid politics, and seeing it at Go doesn't increase my confidence in the judgement of the folks leading Go.

The "you're actively with us, otherwise you're against us" mindset must learn nuance. Not everybody has to be political all of the time.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by hpkuarg on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:22PM (#26418954)
> Not everybody has to be political all of the time.

Of course, modern critical theory would tell you that it's only by the result of privilege that one can afford to remain apolitical. If you're not actively antiracist, you're racist, and so on.

What a world we live in.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by taklimakan on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @06:46PM (#26418158)
This is probably a rhetorical question, anyway if the feeling of being less welcomed comes from how likely the devs are to accept random or poorly thought-out proposals, I don’t think there’s any problem at all. I say, do not welcome them! The core Go team is made of extremely competent and professional engineers, and I expect successful language change proposals or pull requests to be on par with that. Otherwise what are we even talking about?
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by rhabarba on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @06:51PM (#26418214)
I’d wish more technical projects would focus on competent and professional engineers again. Instead, we see calls for more diversity everywhere, including this very survey. I wonder what would be the advantage of having people from different ethnical backgrounds over having people from different tech backgrounds...
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by rudi-c on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @07:47PM (#26418683)
The idea of focusing diversity isn't at odds with focusing on competence. The premise is that certain groups of people who do not fit the stereotype of a male, nerdy, white or asian programmer are often assumed to be less technically competent because of their appearance. As an Asian male, I can't tell you how often people assume I'm smart just by appearance alone. This leads to a hiring process that does _worse_ at hiring component engineers. Even if they are hired, the company culture might not be inclusive enough to retain them - e.g. lots of women leave the industry for that reason. This also leads to a _loss_ of talent.

It's true that some companies might do diversity poorly and hire solely to hit diversity numbers. I don't personally feel good about that. However, in practice I've seen companies that focus on diversity adopt the practice of putting more effort into reaching out to diverse candidates, but have the exact same hiring process & hiring bar applied to them. Those reasonable companies don't make the news -- after all, the unreasonable stories tend to be the ones that get attention.

Again, it's not to say that your concern never happens. However, framing diversity as if it was fundamentally at odds with competence, especially in a completely unrelated thread about a programming language, does a disservice to both diversity _and_ competence.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by throwaway894345 on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:52PM (#26419181)
It seems like we might try to measure and confirm that the problem exists in the first place and to what extent. Then we might try something and measure again to see if it helped or hurt.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by postpostpost on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:24PM (#26418980)
Black Lives Matter is just the name for a political movement and organization aligned with Critical Social Justice and specifically Critical Race Theory which actually dispenses with the idea of meritocracy as a worthwhile goal (see postmeritocracy.org for an explanation of this view; the author of that site is Coraline Ada Ehmke, author of the Contributor Covenant, which has been adopted by many projects including Golang)

The diversity you're talking about uses the definition everyone is familiar with from English.

The diversity Black Lives Matter is talking about is a technical term with the definition coming from Critical Race Theory, which defines whites as the least diverse categorically due to historically injustices against BIPOC folx.

> The idea of focusing diversity isn't at odds with focusing on competence

It is explicitly such, as stated by the movement you defend.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by monocasa on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @10:29PM (#26419850)
> The diversity you're talking about uses the definition everyone is familiar with from English.

> The diversity Black Lives Matter is talking about is a technical term with the definition coming from Critical Race Theory, which defines whites as the least diverse categorically due to historically injustices against BIPOC folx.

Can you provide a citation for that from a CRT source, not a political opponent to CRT?

> > The idea of focusing diversity isn't at odds with focusing on competence

> It is explicitly such, as stated by the movement you defend.

I think you're misunderstanding the major points of Ehmke and others. It's not that we should give up on competency being a driving factor, but instead that the set of organizational tools grouped together as "meritocracy" don't actually make competency the final end result because of the biases those tools impart. "Not a great culture fit" and all that.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by alexkarbiv on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:33PM (#26483340)
Don't "overthink". Just obey corporations, don't question or doubt their agents, propagandists, storytellers("theorists"), city mayors, kapo, etc.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by vulcan01 on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @07:47PM (#26418687)
Competence and professionalism are not quantifiable; diversity is. Hence, when a $manager wants to improve $project (for a raise), they will invariably try to push for diversity.

This is in the context of open-source projects where identity does not matter (and is often not known).

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by lhorie on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @08:33PM (#26419054)
Here's a different (and potentially offensive, please put away the pitchforks) perspective. Recently at work, I was prompted by a coworker to look at a code review page for some go code they wrote. I don't normally review go code at work, so something that struck me was that the code review comments left by a go developer seemed quite a bit more nitpicky than code reviews I'm used to seeing as a non-go developer working with non-go languages. A lot of it was minor stuff like styleguide line items (isn't that sort of stuff what go fmt and go vet are for?)

Golang is an extremely simple language (a good thing, IMHO!), but that means two things:

1) a simple language may lack safety features (e.g. anyone can ignore an err or forget to check for nil pointers), which lead to the need to compensate in other ways, which leads to:

2) the bikeshedding bar is very low in simple languages, and it can lead to institutionalizing opinions in the form of styleguide gospels or other types of "improvements" (think overuse of patterns in Java, another relatively simple language), to the point where the institutional rules put off newcomers who were expecting a breath of fresh air but instead find an "old boys club" (in the sense that they don't feel they have leverage to discuss whatever rules have been set).

I also see this phenomenon in other areas, for example, in Javascript, eslint/prettier are supposed to curb bikeshedding, yet there's an awkward dynamic when a new employee wants a new rule, and what follows is 2 hours of bikeshedding with the old guard.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by AlchemistCamp on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @09:51PM (#26419626)
Prettier lost me forever over how they handled the issue of massive (IMO correct) pushback over not allowing "break before else".

Mozilla got it right on that one.

Setting aside "right" from a technical perspective, the Prettier response to the issue was very, very disappointing.

Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by axaxs on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @06:44PM (#26418136)
For me at least, it's because the size of both the community and the official team expanded hugely in the last few years. I don't feel like they need or want outside help anymore.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by archsurface on Wednesday March 10, 2021 @06:49PM (#26418188)
Strangely, sometime last year I commented on HN about a contribution fiasco, and a bunch of "community" jumped on me, downvoted every response to their refusals to believe it. I've mostly abandoned Go at this point, partly due to the language, very much due to the "community". (Posted from a different account - to save you the time of looking).
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by styluss on Thursday March 11, 2021 @06:06AM (#26422719)
if you ask a question in r/reddit (I know it's not officially part of the community) you get answers telling you to google stuff or to "just" check the docs where someone writes a package name.
Re:Go Developer Survey 2020 Results by thiht on Thursday March 11, 2021 @12:47PM (#26426811)
I lurk on /r/golang and to be fair there are a lot of crappy low effort questions, so yeah. I wouldn't consider these answers as non inclusive, but I understand that the people asking these crappy questions could feel not included.