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Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by dj_mc_merlin on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @07:21PM (#26336891)
Call me old-fashioned, but I enjoy this rage against the machine. Nowadays the common engineer sees it as unprofessional, coarse.. but it's the old Zeitgeist of many a programmer before we learned the new trendy JS framework of the day and started talking about shares, compliance and dividends.
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by kodah on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @07:40PM (#26337070)
I think the problem is that the temperature in the room has changed.

I've seen people get bent out of shape because people put politics in music, yet Forever Young by Alphaville was written about the prospect of dying during the Cold War. Now, there's definitely a difference between Forever Young and some artist making overt statements, that nuance is not lost. The difference is that these aren't seen as humor, insightful thinking, or light-hearted attempts to nudge us in a direction anymore. Discourse has degraded to the extent that anything you mutter must be an absolute belief and there is some inclination that you ascribe to all ecosystems of belief around that idea as well.

If you previously used inflammatory speech (like this) for effect, you're now viewed as someone who has taken a side not only with ideas discussed here but any ideas which may be distantly related to that idea too.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by cookiengineer on Thursday March 04, 2021 @01:30AM (#26339304)
I think this is a phenomenon that happens through stereotypical radicalization.

The social bubble has become so close to exploding in our collective faces that everything has to be put in correct form, everybody has to be included, everything has to be perfect.

What happened to the meaning of "human" itself? Why are we not forgiving to humans that simply forgot?

I think the phenomenon of how social shitstorms explode these days is the exact opposite of an inclusive society.

Those that complain about things online usually are the ones that are not inclusive, and live their lives in despair and hate instead of love and compassion.

What we need to do is the opposite: Embrace discussion, embrace debate, and embrace to try to understand the opponents' views. People are quick to downvote, and people are quick to hate. But do you know what it takes to try to understand your imaginary villain? A real hero that offers compassion, not another villain that fuels the hate.

I believe that we as a society need to rethink our social values, because apparently, a major part of our society doesn't give a damn about other parts of our society.

And that's either a social or an educational issue with our moral baseline that we teach our children.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by danaliv on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @11:52PM (#26338768)
Someone on Instagram told Tom Morello to stop talking politics and stick to music.

Tom fucking Morello.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by ttt0 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @11:58PM (#26338810)
Don't know about Morello, but Dead Kennedys definitely should: https://archive.md/F5pu9
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by nivenkos on Thursday March 04, 2021 @08:20AM (#26341951)
They died when Jello left...
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by old_fart_dev on Thursday March 04, 2021 @07:49AM (#26341664)
I'm dying. Thank you for the laugh.
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by not_a_moth on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @08:55PM (#26337631)
Discourse degraded or maybe it's the coordination of thought made possible from the consolidation of media and the internet, that's made it now possible to target those who seem to threaten the ruling class and their ways.
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by eternalban on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @08:36PM (#26337478)
The Clash with Allen Ginsberg, making quite "overt" statements. Ginsberg spares no one here.

The Clash / Allen Ginsberg - Capitol Air: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qmz03WI-es

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by freshhawk on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @10:17PM (#26338195)
Or, more simply, political beliefs and values are real and the conflict between two specific ones is much more important than it used to be so people are taking it more seriously.

Isn't that ... that's the analysis anyone would have for another country or historical period with the exact same dynamic.

It's probably not actually "kids these days", only because it never has been so far.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by alsetmusic on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @10:53PM (#26338414)
> Or, more simply, political beliefs and values are real and the conflict between two specific ones is much more important than it used to be so people are taking it more seriously.

That American politics have become so bifurcated is the problem. We need more than two parties and we need runoff voting to reinforce their ability to survive. Then we can get out of this black and white / us vs them nonsense and see shades of grey.

There are people who don’t subscribe to either party and I don’t just mean independents. That’s a term that’s limited in use to describing anyone who’s not a member of the two “recognized” parties, rather than a defined party.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by bgorman on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @10:40PM (#26338343)
Your statement rings hollow to me.

Previous generations were literally sent to die in the world wars, Korea and Vietnam.

The current generation of recent college graduates has had less suffering than any prior generation.

It is extremely difficult to tell the difference between a Republican or Democrat if you just look at the results and not their rhetoric.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by conception on Thursday March 04, 2021 @12:13AM (#26338896)
500k dead Americans disagree.
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by akotlar on Thursday March 04, 2021 @02:18AM (#26339614)
Are you arguing that Covid disproportionately kills the young (current generations)?
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by spiralx on Thursday March 04, 2021 @07:23AM (#26341460)
> Or, more simply, political beliefs and values are real and the conflict between two specific ones is much more important than it used to be so people are taking it more seriously.

Social media gives everyone a single place in which to express their opinions on matters large and small, whereas previously they might only have been able to share those opinions with friends. I don't think it's obvious to say people are more politically opinionated without considering how much having a place to express those opinions, find others in agreement and possibly even have that opinion affect the real world has had on how vocal people are about things they opinions they had anyway.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by ojnabieoot on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @07:53PM (#26337165)
For what it’s worth my objection isn’t the content or that there’s politics mingling in an open source project - it’s that the specific message was unbelievably asinine and so stupid as to cast doubt on the competence of the developers (for the same reason it isn’t assuring to read a manual for your television and discover a long rant about Flat Earth - it’s not a strictly fair metric for their technical competence but it’s a huge red flag about their general seriousness and reasoning ability).

Software projects shouldn’t loudly advertise that they are written by people with the political sophistication of a college student who smokes too much weed.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by unethical_ban on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @08:13PM (#26337323)
Man, you are going all over this thread angry that someone put a clearly marked piece of satire regarding _games_ in a _game engine_.

Harm it does: zero Levity it provides: some

This has been done in many projects since the beginning of the Web. You are clearly, how you say, "triggered" by someone making fun of mobile game addiction and monetization.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by boring_twenties on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @08:10PM (#26337299)
Found the mobile game dev ;)

Seriously though, while I'd agree that the piece was written in a quite unsophisticated style, what exactly is "unbelievably asinine" about it?

The two main points seem, to me, to be:

1) Mobile games are designed to provide not much more than an addictive dopamine hit

2) Mobile devices in general enable people to fill time they'd otherwise be alone with their thoughts with mindless distractions, and many happily oblige

Both of these are quite defensible.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by adnzzzzZ on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @09:38PM (#26337941)
There's this bias where games that are extremely addicting but that appeal to intelligence (like say Factorio), the perceived most important trait in our society currently, are OK, whereas games that are addicting and appeal to other traits, like the ability to do the same thing over and over (any game with grinding), are morally wrong. Both types of appeal are manipulative in the same way, but one is cast as morally wrong because it doesn't appeal to what the elites in our society (such as you, dear HN reader) value.

The rant about mobile games and capitalism is simply a reflection of this bias which is a particular view of society, but is not the only one and certainly not one shared by everyone. If you don't share that view it just seems like the person who wrote it is naive and doesn't have appreciation for personalities and perspectives other than his own.

Which is fine, people are different, and engines are written by peculiar people, but if I were to write something similar in another direction people likely wouldn't take it as a joke. For instance:

>Because the world today is not the world of yesterday. A clerical oligarchy runs the world and forces us to trust the science in order to keep the gears of this rotten society on track. As such, we're supposed to believe anything the clerics say, and just like they tell us to wear masks, they tell us that the biggest and best model for game engines today is ECS. It is a model of confused souls forced to architect their games in a particular way to escape the reality that they're just code monkeys gluing ugly code together instead of building a beautiful castle out of lego pieces like they want to believe. And this serves our ruling class, the clerics, as they infect and infest and ever larger portion of game development thought with their rotten ideology. Here at Godot HQ we have none of it, and just like we don't trust the science and we don't wear masks, we also don't use ECS.

Now is this an appropriate joke for an engine's documentation? It's not too far off from the original, just with changed content to suit the changed direction of the joke.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by brokencode on Thursday March 04, 2021 @12:02AM (#26338838)
You can’t just change the words and intent of a joke and use that to argue against the original joke. Of course whether a joke is funny depends on the audience’s point of view.. that’s comedy 101.

What the author was saying really isn’t very contentious if you stop and think about it. Mobile games are a time sink and are often used as a distraction from stressful thoughts. The same is true for other video games, but the author’s view on that isn’t mentioned.

If you think that every humorous statement has to be so clean and pure that nobody takes offense, the I hope you like dad jokes, because that’s about all that’d be left.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by adnzzzzZ on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:00AM (#26339881)
Of course I can do that, given that the contention is not whether the joke is funny or not but if it's appropriate for its environment. If you don't think my joke is appropriate for the documentation of an engine, then you also shouldn't think the previous joke is appropriate either.
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by gitrog on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:39AM (#26340123)
And he's not arguing whether the joke is funny, he's saying the joke is relevant.

The content of your joke isn't as relevant (which also makes it less funny). You used an anti-science sentiment and threw in ECS to try to make it more suitable, but it isn't analogous with the original statement at all.

How exactly do you think a cynical take on something that occurs widely in the industry is equivalent to conspiracy theory level science denialism?

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by adnzzzzZ on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:11AM (#26340295)
First of all, Godot actually doesn't use ECS despite the majority of people in the industry saying it's amazing and all that. There was an article about it the other day https://godotengine.org/article/why-isnt-godot-ecs-based-gam.... So the ECS thing isn't entirely made up.

>How exactly do you think a cynical take on something that occurs widely in the industry is equivalent to conspiracy theory level science denialism?

I believe that believing we live in a capitalist oligarchy that does all the things the text says it does is mistaken and wrong, just like you believe that what I said is conspiracy theory level science denialism. From my perspective what I said makes perfect sense and it's a perfect analogy, just like for you what the text said also explains what's actually happening in reality.

This divergence in views is political in nature, and just like from your perspective saying that mobile games are bad because of capitalism is relevant, for me saying that ECS is bad because of blind faith in science is relevant. Why is my perspective any less important than yours, other than for you not thinking it's relevant?

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by gitrog on Thursday March 04, 2021 @04:35AM (#26340431)
I'm aware Godot doesn't actually use ECS, it doesn't make your joke any more coherent though.

If you want to go down the route that everything is subjective, we're not going to be very productive here. The mention of "capitalist oligarchy" is hyperbole, of course, though I don't know how you want to argue that the world isn't mostly run by capitalist forces. Again, if this is something you want to question I'm not sure we're going to get anywhere.

The factoid in the piece is that a lot of mobile games are built with the intent of being addictive and getting people to spend a bunch of money on micro transactions. Is this another thing that doesn't fit in your view of reality?

Most importantly though, if they added your joke instead I still wouldn't rally to have them take it down. I'd just think it's awkward and embarrasing.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by adnzzzzZ on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:26AM (#26340764)
>though I don't know how you want to argue that the world isn't mostly run by capitalist forces. Again, if this is something you want to question I'm not sure we're going to get anywhere.

I believe that the world is primarily run by academia and journalists, and this is best described as a clerical oligarchy. In 1890 the US was definitely a capitalist/commercial oligarchy, in 2020 the US is definitely not one and is instead a clerical oligarchy where institutions with most power are intellectual ones rather than commercial ones. There are reasonable and well thought out arguments for this being the case https://graymirror.substack.com/p/3-descriptive-constitution....

>The factoid in the piece is that a lot of mobile games are built with the intent of being addictive and getting people to spend a bunch of money on micro transactions. Is this another thing that doesn't fit in your view of reality?

I don't believe mobile games are any worse than other types of games when it comes to addiction. Just because mobile game addiction focuses on certain traits, games that are addictive but focus on other traits are not any better. To assign a negative moral character to mobile games alone is a mistake that people currently make that I disagree with.

>Most importantly though, if they added your joke instead I still wouldn't rally to have them take it down. I'd just think it's awkward and embarrasing.

Yes, that's exactly what I think of the original joke.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by gitrog on Thursday March 04, 2021 @06:07AM (#26340998)
I'll skip right over the conversation about how the world is run. I read some of the article you sent (it's quite long), and let's just say that so far I'm not convinced.

> I don't believe mobile games are any worse than other types of games when it comes to addiction. Just because mobile game addiction focuses on certain traits, games that are addictive but focus on other traits are not any better. To assign a negative moral character to mobile games alone is a mistake that people currently make that I disagree with.

If your biggest issue with the statement is that it unfairly focuses on mobile game devs, feel free to extrapolate the sentiment to all game devs who do this, I think most people do this extrapolation.

I re-read the rest of your responses to this thread, seems like your only issue is with how appropriate a joke is in technical documentation.

I am interested, given your world view, to know why you think a tutorial on encrypting saved game states isn't also inappropriate? In fact, isn't the technical documentation inappropriate in its entirety? Why should I be told how to use the game engine? Just because these "elitist" developers built the engine, doesn't mean they can tell me how I should use it?

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by adnzzzzZ on Thursday March 04, 2021 @06:47AM (#26341253)
>If your biggest issue with the statement is that it unfairly focuses on mobile game devs, feel free to extrapolate the sentiment to all game devs who do this, I think most people do this extrapolation.

I'm a game developer. I don't believe that games are inherently immoral otherwise I wouldn't make them. If you're a game developer and you believe that using psychological techniques to make people play games is wrong then you should probably not be making games, otherwise you're consistently engaging in immoral behavior yourself.

The singling out of mobile games is just a reflection of the bias that game developers have to think some kinds of games are morally wrong because it offends their sensibilities.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by ajnin on Thursday March 04, 2021 @12:19PM (#26345125)
You can't conflate games that try to create a fun experience, and engage people through feelings of discovery, fun, achievement, and games that use manipulative techniques to create frustration and exploit psychological feedback loops to extract a steady stream of money from people. Its just not the same thing at all. Like comparing a novel to a lottery ticket. Both are written on paper but the comparison stops here.
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by gitrog on Thursday March 04, 2021 @07:38AM (#26341565)
> I don't believe that games are inherently immoral otherwise I wouldn't make them.

Neither do I, maybe you read my reply incorrectly. I said, feel free to extrapolate the criticism to all game devs who explicitly try to make the games addictive and hook people with micro-transactions. So your whole line of reasoning there kind of falls flat.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by adnzzzzZ on Thursday March 04, 2021 @09:29AM (#26342878)
There's no criticism. Making a game addictive is making a game addictive. If you're doing it with micro-transactions or with RNG-gating it's the same thing.
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by wwupt on Thursday March 04, 2021 @07:45AM (#26341626)
> I believe that the world is primarily run by academia and journalists

I think that world would look something like this: We take immediate and severe measures to curb global warming, don't spend the last decade imposing austerity measures on the European populace, de-escalate the war on drugs, develop a deep understanding of the cultural intricacies of countries we consider invading, avoid publishing clickbait inflammatory anecdotes in our newspapers in consideration for the long term public interest, not the benefit of the shareholders, and drive policy by the nuanced understanding of scientific study, not emotion, intuition, or anecdote.

How does the contrast between the last 40 years of ruthless neoliberalism vs. the very leftist academia and democratic-liberal leaning MSM, fit in your belief that academia and the press are somehow running the show?

(edit: typo)

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by ttt0 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @10:01PM (#26338109)
> Factorio

Never played this, but it seems to be designed just to be a fun game. From their pricing model, there doesn't seem to be any incentive for them to keep you addicted. Unlike some of the mobile games with microtransactions.

Being addicted to video games, any kind, is overall a bad thing.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by the_af on Thursday March 04, 2021 @07:45AM (#26341634)
Oh, I have no dog in this fight, but let me tell you Factorio is extremely addicting. As in, "I wonder where all those hours of my day went?". I had to stop playing because it was starting to get stressful.

PS: it's a really cool game.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by matkoniecz on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:21AM (#26340013)
For me difference is that Factorio is not containing any way to spend money in game or spend to avoid grinding.

While typical mobile money has grinding solely to force you to pay.

Note: in Factorio my typical strategy is to use mod that makes me start with construction robots, to skip any kind of drudgery at start.

Modding API allowing it is deliberately open and explicitly created to allow this. In typical mobile game I would need to pay large amount of money for that.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by mathgladiator on Thursday March 04, 2021 @01:02AM (#26339174)
The bias is born from the pay to win. How many of these games simply put players against an exponential cost curve for marginal benefits?

What this does is ruin the intent and legitimacy of the game.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by adnzzzzZ on Thursday March 04, 2021 @02:59AM (#26339872)
In your biased elite opinion, of course. A vast majority of people have no problem with pay to win in the games they play.
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by mekkkkkk on Thursday March 04, 2021 @11:47AM (#26344723)
You sure make a lot of absolute claims. How do you arrive at that conclusion?
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by lmilcin on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @09:17PM (#26337790)
Chill out. These guys are developers, not world leaders.

Everybody's entitled to their opinion especially, if there isn't anything harmful.

At least the guys are creating more than public flame on HN.

As to college students smoking weed, just study history of Silicon Valley to see how many of big name corps were started like that.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by wruza on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @09:18PM (#26337802)
Does the sudden revelation that we all are people with own quirks really shock you that hard? You maybe believe that there is regular people and there is serious people, who work at the serious business, which is by itself serious af.
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by thefz on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:34AM (#26340087)
> Software projects shouldn’t loudly advertise that they are written by people with the political sophistication of a college student who smokes too much weed.

Open source software projects can have the spin and advertising they want, and it's up to you not to use them if you do not agree.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by throwawaygh on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @10:19PM (#26338207)
> but it's the old Zeitgeist of many a programmer before we learned the new trendy JS framework of the day and started talking about shares, compliance and dividends.

With the money came power, and with power comes an expectation of responsibility. But VCs/execs/boards aren't interested in taking even an iota of material responsibility , and holding them to account is basically impossible, and so all the external anger at a largely unaccountable and unconcerned industry gets redirected at rank-and-file.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by thefz on Thursday March 04, 2021 @03:27AM (#26340051)
I live with a simple principle: Does it make me think, does it make me feel something? then it's art. Video games a re definitely art as a means to express a thought or a feeling. Let's not drown that in the flow of soulless triple A sport sims.
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by clairity on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @08:09PM (#26337292)
reading the comments here made me think it was going to be a self-serving and possibly offensive screed, but instead it was a mirthful critique of the human condition under captured capitalism, in the service of ‘justifying’ encrypted save files (where the summary answer is to prevent cheating).
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by catmanjan on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @11:22PM (#26338554)
As someone born in the 90s, looking back at the "rage against the machine" culture in software seems very fake for an industry that went from academia to an extension of the financial services sector...
Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by DaedPsyker on Thursday March 04, 2021 @05:00AM (#26340612)
They weren't the same people though. Even the academic types were the type of sandel wearing, long bearded hippies (not an insult BTW) that nixon raged against. Followed by the tinkering kids and phreakers etc.

There was never a single overarching software culture.

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by unethical_ban on Thursday March 04, 2021 @11:10AM (#26344192)
It seems like a fallacy to go backward from "Things are this way in 2021, therefore it could never have been any other way in the 1980s-early 2000s".

Go to Barnes and Noble (or online) and pick up the magazine 2600, which still gives off a very amateur, hacking-positive pre-social-media vibe of the internet, telecom, and computing.

Also, the book "Steal This Computer Book" while outdated was a fun glance-through when I was younger, though it didn't talk philosophy.

You had things like the Declaration of Independence of Cyberspace[1] and other essays and myriad discussions about the potential of the World Wide Web.

The Web was smaller, less corporate, and the nerds ran the show. It shouldn't be blamed on them/us that the net is "corporate".

Re:Godot maintainer removes controversial satirical piece fr... by hluska on Thursday March 04, 2021 @02:42AM (#26339772)
If you're ever interested in embarking upon an interesting cultural study of the 1990s, look at some of RATM's label mates on Epic Records. It was a strange decade...