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Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by Animats on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @01:43AM (#26312537)
It really is a concern just how dependent the entire world is on TSMC.

"The best human operator cannot defend against multiple machines making thousands of maneuvers per second potentially moving at hypersonic speeds and orchestrated by AI across domains."

Attacks by drone swarms are already here. The first one was Syria vs. Russia in 2018.[1] There was an attack on Saudi oil facilities in 2019.[2]

Much of this has little to do with AI. It's more about the US falling further behind in manufacturing.

[1] https://tripwire.dhs.gov/news/209478

[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2019/09/16/why-the-atta...

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by buildbot on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @02:46AM (#26312868)
I mean it’s not like intel and their fans are utterly worthless, they may not be on par with TSMC 5nm yet, but in the end given a strong strategic need, I don’t think we’d be without advanced chips for very long if TSMC is overtaken by China.

There’s also the fact that a war between China and Taiwan is almost certainly going to go hot with the USA too, possibly leading to nuclear exchanges…

It’s much more likely that China eventually starts producing their own state of the art silicon before going to war with Taiwan.

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by scoopertrooper on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @05:24AM (#26313779)
Also worth noting that TSMC is about to build an 5nm fab in America.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timbajarin/2021/02/16/why-tsmcs...

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by GoOnThenDoTell on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @01:19PM (#26318458)
By the time it’s finished, 3nm will be what we really want for the high end
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by scoopertrooper on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @11:11PM (#26324657)
Perhaps, but I am sure a lot of the equipment is transferable between processes.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by tomerico on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @03:05AM (#26312992)
I wonder how many countries today are not in war simply because of fear of retaliation from the USA.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by sneak on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @05:59AM (#26313972)
Say what you (or Kubrick) will about mutually assured destruction, it sure does seem to have prevented a lot of violence, despite also seeming totally insane.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by monadic7 on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @06:55AM (#26314321)
I never got that logic—the US has been in armed conflict in various forms since the end of WWII, whether directly or through the CIA. It seems more like nukes enable violence from my perspective.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by throwaway6734 on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @07:13AM (#26314465)
The world was a much more violent place before pax americana.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by sangnoir on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @01:12PM (#26318361)
> The world was a much more violent place before pax americana.

Europe, for sure is a lot less violent, as for the rest of the world? I won't believe that on face value; south America specifically got more violent, and I suspect everywhere else is a wash (or is not attributable to American force projection). I attribute the peace in Europe to the EU rather than pax Americana.

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by throwaway6734 on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @04:23PM (#26320966)
The EU was founded in 1993.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by sangnoir on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @04:50PM (#26321395)
A company named "Apple, Inc." didn't exist prior to 2007 either - that's just splitting hairs, IMO, a rose by any other name &tc, &tc. I assumed anyone who has passing familiarity with Europe's history and WWII knew exactly what I meant by "EU" - you may read it as "the European project", if that dunks your crumpet.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by sneak on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @07:14AM (#26314467)
Being involved in conflicts where hundreds or thousands die is mostly preferable to being involved in wars where tens or hundreds of thousands die.

Overall violent death is down on planet Earth drastically over time.

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by engineer_22 on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @10:42AM (#26316420)
Food for thought: The Wars in the Congo are a counter example. 2nd Congo War is thought to have caused 5.4 million deaths and officially ended in 2003, just 18 years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by xxpor on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @11:28AM (#26317022)
Arguably that's the exception that proves the rule. Note how none of the great powers were really that involved (outside of the US providing "advisors").
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by CapriciousCptl on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @07:39AM (#26314661)
It’s like the big brother who says, “nobody can tease my sister except me.” There’s less teasing— he’s the only one doing it.

But I’m with you, on balance wmds are terrible things. One use of them could outweigh all the violence they prevented.

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by ericb on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @01:44PM (#26318796)
It seems relatively peaceful: https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by Dirlewanger on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @10:11AM (#26316079)
I mean, America being the world police is a meme, but also has some truth to it...
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by consumer451 on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @10:33AM (#26316304)
> but also has some truth to it...

That is one heck of an understatement.[0] The global economic benefit of the stability brought by the US military being top-dog is vast, and appears to benefit many countries including China. There are plenty of valid criticisms of Pax Americana, but the global economic benefit, not so much imho.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Americana

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by tolbish on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @10:47AM (#26316486)
The existence of the US hegemony is no secret. The only debate surrounds its longevity. The accepted tipping point is when its massive salaries start to even out with the rest of the world, with COVID-19 acting as a catalyst.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by xxpor on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @12:01PM (#26317428)
Why would US salaries start to even out with the rest of the world? On a per capita basis, our GDP is still massively higher than every other large country.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by webmaven on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @12:33PM (#26317850)
> Why would US salaries start to even out with the rest of the world? On a per capita basis, our GDP is still massively higher than every other large country.

The hypothesis is that if most high compensation workers are remote, it opens up those labor markets to more competition from lower cost regions.

IOW, as Covid-19 forces organizations to become remote-first, they perforce also become more outsourcing-friendly, or at least outsourcing-capable.

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by kube-system on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @03:50PM (#26320479)
I don't believe it. People predicted the same thing would happen due to technology enabling outsourcing in the 90s. The only success was at the lower-end of the information economy.

Also, while COVID is going to accelerate the shift to remote work in the US, the vast majority will be <100% truly async remote. It's the 1-20% of edge case requirements that are really hard to mitigate. The ability to answer a phone call at 2pm Eastern Time and hop on a plane to Chicago is way different for someone from Manila than it is for someone from Cleveland, even if they only do it occasionally.

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by webmaven on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @03:17PM (#26403583)
> People predicted the same thing would happen due to technology enabling outsourcing in the 90s. The only success was at the lower-end of the information economy.

I agree, for a variety of reasons, but there is a joker in the deck: will the distribution of required skill change over time? IOW, should we expect demand to grow faster at the low end of the information economy, in the middle, or at the top? I don't think it is too reasonable to expect the distribution to remain fixed over time.

Right now, we've been seeing a lot of growth in demand at the top end, but that was true for the 'service economy' at the start too. The irony of the scenario where increasing automation depresses the wages of the lowest skill jobs because they can most easily be filled with fungible human labor while expanding the demand for workers to fill them due to Jevon's Paradox should not be lost on us.

It is entirely possible that entry-level software work will become as much of a dead-end job as being a customer service representative.

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by sgt101 on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @10:01AM (#26315980)
Maybe China could go for a double tap - limited flagged strikes with the calculation that the USA would refrain from involvement or 1-1 retaliate (which China could eat). Wait 18 mths for the chip shortage to erode capability and then really go for it.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by paganel on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @03:15AM (#26313051)
> There’s also the fact that a war between China and Taiwan is almost certainly going to go hot with the USA too, possibly leading to nuclear exchanges…

There was an article in The Economist a couple of weeks ago saying that that may no longer be the case, I mean the US automatically siding with Taiwan in case of China's aggression. Take that as you will, I looked at it as an establishment mouthpiece airing valid concerns that some members of said establishment have regarding US's "seriousness" in the region.

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by T-A on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @05:35AM (#26313835)
This, I guess:

https://www.economist.com/china/2021/02/20/china-faces-fatef...

Seems to me it's concerned about "America’s ability to deter an invasion over Taiwan", not about it "showing resolve when talking about China and Taiwan".

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by paganel on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @08:02AM (#26314844)
Not being able means not being willing at this level, meaning geopolitics and given the US’s existing financial means.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by simonh on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @06:00AM (#26313983)
I think looking at it as the USA 'falling behind in manufacturing' isn't quite the right lens to use when looking at the strategic issues here. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to tease out some of the issues and assumptions.

The strategic concern they are raising is not economic, it's a security issue and the two are quite different. From the strategic security view it doesn't matter so much who makes these products, what matters is ensuring continuity of availability on the one hand and excluding interference or compromises of the integrity of the supply chain on the other. The latter is to do with things like an opponent interfering in the quality of parts, introducing backdoors and such.

In these two views of course on shore manufacturing is easier to secure in both senses, but that's a side effect not an absolute. For example if the USA had sovereign territory next to China, a fab there would still be highly vulnerable to interference in the physical supply while a fab in Canada next to the US border would be much more physically secure from Chinese or Russian interference. From a security perspective there's nothing magical about being on US territory.

A lot of these debates seem to very rapidly pivot into discussions about on shore US manufacturing and falling behind technologically, where what they're really talking about is skills and economic benefits. Those are a very different issue though.

Even looking just at the technology it's not a simple calculation either. The best lithography systems are manufactured in Holland, any fab anywhere wanting to use the best processes is dependent on them and these are the most critical parts of the process. The location of the fab is just one part of the puzzle. In today's highly integrated world no one country can even hope to own all the essential elements in high tech supply, chain. The common simplistic view of iPhone manufacturing is another example of this. The majority of the most advanced components in an iPhone to this day aren't made in China. The camera module in Japanese, the CPUs come from Taiwan, flash memory and batteries mostly from South Korea and Japan I think, Gorilla glass I'm not sure about now, it used to be made in the US. Only final assembly and some low value components are Chinese, and yet iPhones are 'Made in China'. Would moving low value, low skilled final assembly really benefit the USA all that much? That's a more extreme example, but from a supply chain and technology point of view it's the same (to a much lesser extent to be sure) with chip fabs. Critical components come from all sorts of different countries and companies.

So ok building more advanced fabs in the US is a sensible move on a whole variety of axes, but it doesn't solve all of the problems and even when it does, it's not always for the most obvious reasons.

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by NoOneNew on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @09:53AM (#26315899)
I really like your response and cant really argue with your points. I just want to add another aspect that I think you missed, the cultural mindset of the US.

Pre ww2 the US was pretty isolationist. A very, "Sounds like a whole lot of your problem and not mine" kind of country. The foot dragging for both world wars is pretty evident. I've read and personally do believe it's attributed by the fact we are a melting pot of people. That's important for the distinction of, "I left xyz country for a reason and came to this country to get away from their bullshit." That's a very toned down version of what my own dad told me on my 18th birthday when he gave me the full story of leaving soviet occupied Poland. I'm pretty sure theres a lot of grand amd great grand folks with similar sentiments when they left the old country in the late 1800s and early 1900s. People didnt uproot and enter a foreign land with no support just because they bored and doing well in their home country. This, I believe, leads to a self reliance mindset since there's a... disdain... for the rest of the world.

So the security aspect, absolutely. I think the want for all manufacturing in general stems from the self reliance, isolationist desire with security as a very good, logical excuse. However, even in bizarro world if a security argument wasn't good enough alone, this anti-global-reliance wouldn't go away.

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by adamcstephens on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @07:22AM (#26314532)
Falling behind in manufacturing seems to include the entire supply chain, not just fabs. Global supply chains are fragile, so we’d do well to build as much physical infrastructure and expertise on shore as possible. This is a policy problem more than anything else.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by randcraw on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @10:21AM (#26316173)
The problem of US-based or ally-based technology companies that fall behind competitively or economically and then are allowed to fail inescapably ensures US dependence for essential/secure tech supplies on others, some with motives contrary to our well-being. This chink in our commercial, military, and security armor should wake the US government to the necessity of underwriting some essential industries, products, or services -- as China famously does.

The US gov't has underwritten a few niche industries for decades such as supercomputing (e.g. Cray and TMC) and crypto. But for some reason they've been reluctant to do this more broadly for other essential industries like microelectronics, telecom, battery tech, and more. Clearly the potential repercussions of such oversights should compel this laissez-faire policy to be reconsidered.

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by simonh on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @11:23AM (#26330528)
Well as a citizen of a US ally (UK), that's all very well but I don't think the world works like that. Europe, Japan and other US allies are collectively huge pools of talent and capital. How much would the US government have to spend to guarantee than nothing thought up or developed in any of those countries ever exceeds anything developed in the US? Is that really a feasible objective?

Nobody in the US decided to let Holland develop more advanced lithographic systems for chip manufacturing, or to let ARM in the UK come up with a more efficient processor architecture.

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by DataWorker on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @02:13PM (#26319137)
They fund the universities through debt in the form of student loans. The schools then funnel indebted graduates desperate for financial security into various industries where their human capital is securitized. You can call that laissez-faire, but I see a lot of similarities with China’s top down system and predict those similarities to increase as we are forced to compete with China more directly.
Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by d110af5ccf on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @02:00AM (#26312622)
> how dependent the entire world is on TSMC

Isn't Samsung nearly on par with them? (Not that two is a much better situation.)

It (perhaps naively) seems like most applications could theoretically make due with older processes, but I have difficulty imagining supply chains successfully coping with such a switch (not that I know anything about it).

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by ddeck on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @02:32AM (#26312785)
They are trying, although not there yet.

There is also the capacity issue:

TSMC has 28% of the semiconductor market under 40nm, Samsung has 10%.

As a foundry, it's ~55% vs ~17%. Add in UMC and a few others and it's 64% Taiwan. Definitely a critical dependency.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/TSMC-has-the-largest-market-sh...

https://www.eenewsanalog.com/news/foundry-market-jumps-24-pe...

Re:National Security Commission on Artificial Intelligence's... by fomine3 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @08:21PM (#26337388)
Anandtech's Snapdragon 888 review compares vs 865. The article indicates that Samsung 5nm is a bit better or worse (vary on what to compare) than TSMC 7nm (non-EUV).

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16463/snapdragon-888-vs-exyno...