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Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by colordrops on Saturday February 27, 2021 @01:38PM (#26286994)
Yes, 11 years after its debut and nearly a trillion in valuation, still ridiculously ignorant statements like "delivers no value". It delivers no value you care about. Many people care about money that can't be inflated, can't be stopped from being traded, and can't be controlled across international borders. Those are hugely valuable to some people, whether you find it valuable or not.
Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by orangeoxidation on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:06PM (#26287690)
> money

With built in and inevitable deflation. Bitcoin could never replace a national currency.

With transaction times in the tens of minutes and with a maximal global transaction rate of 5-10 per second. The Blockchain couldn't replace the banking system of single mid-sized town.

It's not money. It's at best "digital gold", but more realistically it's just a ponzi scheme.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by shawnz on Saturday February 27, 2021 @06:42PM (#26289223)
> Bitcoin could never replace a national currency.

That is the most grandiose goal a new monetary technology could possibly have. It doesn't need to replace a national currency to be useful/valuable to users.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by scsilver on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:12PM (#26287732)
Religion is just a ponzi scheme that still underpins most of the world's networks and hierarchies.
Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by tshanmu on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:19PM (#26287783)
Care to elaborate? Or you mean christianity? There are quite a few other religions that are quite nice. Buddhism as practiced in Bhutan comes to mind...
Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by EdwardDiego on Sunday February 28, 2021 @12:15AM (#26290872)
Not sure about the lack of freedom of religion in Bhutan.
Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by scsilver on Saturday February 27, 2021 @06:41PM (#26289219)
Has nothing to do with being bad or good, just value creation through coordination/cooperation, fueled by some hype.
Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by aparsons on Sunday February 28, 2021 @11:13AM (#26294337)
Stop trying to incite a religious flame war.

FYI, Buddhist extremism has resulted in two (ongoing) genocides.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by conanbatt on Saturday February 27, 2021 @05:04PM (#26288607)
It needs to have demand to be worth anything at all. At that demand in aggregate assigns value to bitcoin.

The fixed emission schedule of BTC means that there is no issuer that can capture increased demand in the good, but the holders of BTC get that benefit. So the only thing you need to bet on is if there will be more aggregate demand for the 21 million btc in the future than there is today.

With fiat currencies, when there is a crisis like COVID and the demand for money skyrockets, the fiat issuer can print out the money and do whatever it wants with that surplus demand.

If BTC makes it so the aggregate demand in currencies is split partially from fiat into BTC itself, then it will be a great transfer of wealth from governments into BTC owners.

There's your value.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by tekknik on Sunday February 28, 2021 @08:41AM (#26293341)
> If BTC makes it so the aggregate demand in currencies is split partially from fiat into BTC itself, then it will be a great transfer of wealth from governments into BTC owners.

And will quickly be banned by said country.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by conanbatt on Sunday February 28, 2021 @11:25AM (#26294422)
If this scenario happens, BTC will have demonstrated enormous power and value, and it is supposedly designed precisely to resist such attacks.

I also doubt on the feasibility of a global crackdown on miners in the entire world.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by tekknik on Sunday February 28, 2021 @11:40PM (#26299811)
The enormous value being money laundering? Also the miners ultimately have to swap for some fiat, so they can’t stay in BTC “heaven” forever. Further buyers set the price, not miners. Especially given that using BTC is a luxury except for the underbanked, who also don’t have money and are selling their BTC to get some.
Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by conanbatt on Monday March 01, 2021 @06:44PM (#26310082)
If money laundering is the only use case btc has, and it is the best way to do money laundering, it's going to make a lot of people rich.
Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by mrb on Saturday February 27, 2021 @10:11PM (#26290334)
«could never replace a national currency»

There are plenty of scenarios for Bitcoin to succeed and be useful without necessarily replacing national currencies.

«transaction times in the tens of minutes»

Wires take hours/days. Credit card transactions take 1-2 days before the seller's bank account is actually credited. Obviously speed isn't an issue for adoption given that people tolerate systems much slower than Bitcoin.

«maximal global transaction rate of 5-10 per second»

Bitcoin Lightning Network supports thousands/millions of transactions per seconds.

«Blockchain couldn't replace»

IMHO it shouldn't replace, but complement.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by tekknik on Sunday February 28, 2021 @08:39AM (#26293329)
> Wires take hours/days. Credit card transactions take 1-2 days before the seller's bank account is actually credited. Obviously speed isn't an issue for adoption given that people tolerate systems much slower than Bitcoin.

Wires take hours, rarely, if ever days, and in my experience the money is in the receiving account before I hang up from sending it.

Also people tolerate this system because there is nothing else available, and much of it is not a result of lack of desire but anti money laundering. Countries are already moving to digital currency tokens.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by repartix on Saturday February 27, 2021 @09:19PM (#26290089)
Advice: only write sentences that are true.

> Bitcoin could never replace a national currency.

You can't predict the future.

> With transaction times in the tens of minutes and with a maximal global transaction rate of 5-10 per second. The Blockchain couldn't replace the banking system of single mid-sized town.

With millions of transactions per second, the Lightning network could.

> It's not money.

It's money. Here's an explanation of money https://powreach.com/crypto

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by repartix on Sunday February 28, 2021 @11:47AM (#26294609)
To the people who downvoted: learn to distinguish expressing a fact from expressing an opinion. Don't be gratuitously negative.

To HN moderators: make it possible to understand why someone downvoted. This is an example of what makes HN off-putting.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by dosenbrot on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:55PM (#26288081)
> With built in and inevitable deflation. Why is everyone thinking deflation is a bad thing? "Oh no, how horrible, my money isn't loosing value over time so I dont't have to buy things I don't need and can start to save money without loosing value"
Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by tfehring on Saturday February 27, 2021 @05:39PM (#26288821)
Lots of reasons, see e.g. [0] for a brief explanation of a few of them.

[0] https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/why-is-deflatio...

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by tim333 on Sunday February 28, 2021 @07:42AM (#26292996)
They are not really distinguishing between deflation in a national currency that people's wages and debts are denominated in which is a problem, and bitcoin going up which isn't really.

No one's taking out a bitcoin mortgage to buy their house with.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by tsss on Saturday February 27, 2021 @04:36PM (#26288400)
Because it leads to catastrophic economic crisis and starvation of millions. Anyone with half a mind has known this since the 1930s at least.
Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by ac29 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @01:49PM (#26287079)
> money that can't be inflated

The supply of Bitcoin has been inflated, on average, every 10 minutes for the past ~11 years.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by solosoyokaze on Saturday February 27, 2021 @02:50PM (#26287582)
It's known exactly how many Bitcoin will be produced and at what rate. There will never be more than 21 million BTC. This was known and agreed upon by all participants in the system.

How much USD will exist in 10 years?

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by albntomat0 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:37PM (#26287922)
I understand and appreciate the point you're making (I want to add this as my response is slightly flippant).

How many BTC will it take to buy a Toyota Corolla in Feb 2022?

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by solosoyokaze on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:48PM (#26288011)
Hopefully less than in Feb 2021.

I think a better question would be, how many BTC will it take to buy a house in 2050? I think the three things that have experienced the most drastic inflation are: housing, healthcare and education. It would be interesting to measure Bitcoin's long term value next to those highly inflating costs. Say a house now costs 10 BTC/$500,000 and in 2050 10 BTC/$2,000,000.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by tekknik on Sunday February 28, 2021 @08:45AM (#26293366)
> Hopefully less than in Feb 2021.

Financial planning -> window, cause my base currency keeps moving around and won’t hold still long enough for me to even finish the equation.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by ric2b on Saturday March 06, 2021 @12:30PM (#26368950)
How many USD will it take to buy a Toyota Corolla in Feb 2022?
Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by solosoyokaze on Sunday February 28, 2021 @11:18AM (#26294371)
I'm planning on continued massive USD inflation.
Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by 8note on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:44PM (#26287976)
How does Bitcoin continue to have transactions once that limit is met? Arent the miners executing transactions in exchange for Bitcoin?

When there's no more coins to mine, there's no reason for anyone to be running their bitcoin operations. It'll fall to governments? At that point, can't they introduce more Bitcoin?

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by albntomat0 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:52PM (#26288053)
Each transactions has a fee value set by the sender, that goes to the miner. Miners select the top N transactions by fee, so miners will still have an incentive.
Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by tharkun__ on Saturday February 27, 2021 @04:31PM (#26288362)
The fees are already exorbitant and make no sense if you wanted to use Bitcoin for everyday transactions. You still see merchants that have something like a 2$ minimum for credit card transactions, which charge a percentage fee usually.

Looking at https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_f... the average Bitcoin fee seems to be somewhere around $22 right now. Just think of the dialog occurring once miners have to make all their money from fees only:

"Yes sir, I would like to buy this chewing gum for my son. Yes I know it costs $0.50. Yes I know it will cost me the equivalent fee of $50 to buy it using Bitcoin. Now sell it to me already!".

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by albntomat0 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @04:37PM (#26288406)
True. Bitcoin as currently designed doesn't support the transaction throughput or latency anyways for folks to buy gum, only larger money transfers. (I'm a skeptic, FWIW)

Without the presence of transaction fees though, things would fall apart once the block reward ran out, as asked in the original question.

Re:Are You Trading or Gambling? by 177tcca on Saturday February 27, 2021 @02:05PM (#26287220)
And will continue to.

Event-based, surprise inflation is the only negative inflation, for the end user.