News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by panta82 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:25AM (#26283482)
I don't mind blocking ads, but analytics? That seems like the taking the desire for privacy too far.

Why shouldn't site owner know you've visited their site? How will they do their job if they don't know where people come from, what content they enjoy, what devices they should optimized for, general demographic of their audience, etc.

These are all the things a restourant owner would know about their customers, for example. But no one seems to have a problem with that.

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by tomstuart on Saturday February 27, 2021 @04:22AM (#26283679)
The problem is with the centralisation and aggregation of that knowledge. It’s not (necessarily) bad that the site owner knows you’ve visited their site, it’s bad that Google knows all of the sites you’ve visited.
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by panta82 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @08:19PM (#26289790)
That's a fair point.

While I am not as concerned about big tech's data siloing as some, I can see why it's worrying.

Unfortunately, not only is GA the best totally free analytics solution that any marketeer will know how to use, many ad blockers nuke ALL analytics scripts, even if they have nothing to do with google.

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by account42 on Monday March 01, 2021 @09:21AM (#26302984)
> many ad blockers nuke ALL analytics scripts, even if they have nothing to do with google

That's because you don't need analytics scripts to see if people visiit your site - you have the original page request for that. Analytics script collect additional information beyond that, which users that block them have deemed to be not acceptable.

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by cmod on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:29AM (#26283502)
Less about stopping analytics and more about stopping privacy-malicious analytics (which google analytics could arguably be defined as). Install a privacy friendly analytics package and I suspect it won’t be much blocked.
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by panta82 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @08:00PM (#26289703)
That'd be a reasonable counter-point if extensions like uBlock Origin weren't also blocking self-hosted analytics packages, like Matomo.

I think people in general have gotten so sick of ad powered big tech they are having a bit of an over-reaction against analytics in general, not just google's product.

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by jerrre on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:28AM (#26283495)
Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I would not expect a restaurant owner to track where I come from, my demographics etc?
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by izacus on Saturday February 27, 2021 @04:44AM (#26283753)
Restaurant owners do exactly that - just by looking at you sitting in there (and other customers).
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by Vhano on Saturday February 27, 2021 @09:09AM (#26284923)
not my underwear colour, type, size. What they see is what I offer to show
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by jannes on Saturday February 27, 2021 @04:19AM (#26283666)
They wouldn’t have to “track” it scientifically in a database.

They would just know implicitly by observing their customers who are right in front of their eyes. (At least pre-covid)

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by Vhano on Saturday February 27, 2021 @09:10AM (#26284928)
would they know which car I drive from looking at me?
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by logifail on Saturday February 27, 2021 @05:21AM (#26283878)
> These are all the things a restourant owner would know about their customers, for example

The restaurant I visit most often "knows" only my first name (only) plus my mobile phone number, I suppose if they really tried they could probably collect data on my approximate height, build, eye and hair colour, and that I have multiple kids. That's it (since I pay them in cash).

Oddly enough they don't worrying about tracking their customers and instead focus on delivering an excellent product with excellent service. They're known in the region for that, they're usually busy, so one might think their strategy seems to be working(?)

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by panta82 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @07:49PM (#26289651)
They also know when you like to visit, what you like to order, how long you stay, who are you with...

All together, that's more data than a Google Analytics user knows about any of their visitors.

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by grishka on Saturday February 27, 2021 @04:50AM (#26283773)
You could do all that without involving the world's largest advertising corporation. Use the data you already receive with each request. You know, count how many pages you've served, use a GeoIP database on visitors' IP addresses, parse their user agents, all that kind of stuff.
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by panta82 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @08:05PM (#26289728)
A lot of relevant interactions in modern apps are client based. You'd have to send those data points via ajax, but then you've just recreated google analytics.

Also, feels like a bit of an arbitrary boundary.

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by matsemann on Saturday February 27, 2021 @09:10AM (#26284927)
They know I visited the page by their servers serving me the page. Why the hell does Google need to be involved for that?

And why should a random page I visit get to know my demography, interests and where I come from? How can you portray avoiding that as taking privacy too far??

I don't care if that makes it harder to optimize your business. Find another way or perish.

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by panta82 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @07:53PM (#26289673)
But these are all things that real world business can learn as well about you, more or less.

You don't have a problem with them knowing that.

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by matsemann on Sunday February 28, 2021 @08:16AM (#26293205)
How do the real life businesses know that? If I explicitly tell them, that's fine. If they know it through some nefarious collection I would have a problem with that.
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by tinus_hn on Saturday February 27, 2021 @06:29AM (#26284153)
Would it be reasonable for a restaurant to know about every other restaurant you visit? And every store you look at, and every newspaper article you read?
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by panta82 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @08:01PM (#26289706)
As a user of google analytics, I don't know any of that.
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by tinus_hn on Sunday February 28, 2021 @04:37AM (#26292012)
But you do! There’s a ‘Interests’ profile of your visitors in the stats, which is based on what they do on other sites.

Of course in any case Google knows and they choose how much they want to tell you.

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by panta82 on Sunday February 28, 2021 @08:15AM (#26293196)
Fair point. I am not a heavy GA user, I just use the basic functionality.

Nevertheless, I don't feel iffy about my Interests profile participating in aggregate data available to the sites I visit. Since virtually all sites are free of charge, giving some of that insight back seems like a fair trade.

That said, having ALL that data available to Google without anonymization is a bit more worrying, although I haven't seen many examples where it hurt someone in real world.

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by jakobdabo on Saturday February 27, 2021 @04:30AM (#26283705)
JS analytics gives away too much.

Web site owners can analyze their web server's log, which has at least client's IP address, user agent, timestamp and the URL. Already too much if you ask me.

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by mrweasel on Saturday February 27, 2021 @05:46AM (#26283959)
I’m mostly interested in what moves like this will mean for e-commerce. Not the sites themself, but all the shady and honestly unprofessionel retargetting, ad-agencies and online marketing in general. Most of those business rely on questionable JavaScript based tracking. I don’t see the majority of those business have the resources or knowledge to survive without JavaScript tracking.
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by Griffinsauce on Saturday February 27, 2021 @05:12AM (#26283853)
Most of those things are easily analysed in-house or with much less invasive solutions than GA.

> general demographic of their audience

This is not useful to improve a product unless combined with proper research into the demo, which most people don't do. They just apply their own biases and make their product _worse_.

So many people are making all their decisions based on shallow data like this and never do a simple usability test that yields massively more impact.

Put differently, people use this data to try to focus in on specific traits of their audience before even testing that their software works for "humans".

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by occz on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:36AM (#26283523)
You can, as the owner of a site, check that someone has visited your site, but you cannot give that information to Google (without consent). That's illegal under the GDPR.

Also, you have zero control of what code any client executes on their machine. Zero say, whatsoever.

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by logifail on Saturday February 27, 2021 @05:27AM (#26283894)
> That's illegal under the GDPR [..]

So what about sites that claim that certain cookies are necessary for operation of the site, when that's at best bending the truth and at worst an outright falsehood?

Many sites work perfectly well and - amusingly - become blazingly fast once you block all scripting and cookies. No annoying GDPR notices, no annoying ads, no (client-side) tracking. So much for "necessary" cookies :/

Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by XCSme on Saturday February 27, 2021 @10:10AM (#26285286)
You can still self-host your web analytics and they won't be blocked, plus it's 100x better than using a "free" service that centralizes data.
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by panta82 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @08:09PM (#26289743)
I am not deep into analytics space, but I know from experience that the most popular ad blocker (ublock origin) will block the most popular self hosted analytics package (matomo).
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by XCSme on Sunday February 28, 2021 @09:22AM (#26293577)
The thing about blocking self-hosted analytics is that it's very easy to avoid being blocked if you want. You can just change the included tracker name, or request parameter names.
Re:Firefox replaces Google Analytics with fake no-op in stri... by Vhano on Saturday February 27, 2021 @09:08AM (#26284914)
best to ask. Do you generally advertise your ethnicity/country when you go to a restaurant?