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Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by jahlove on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:30AM (#26275709)
> Some apps, like Facebook, allow for some data tracking to be manually disabled. But by default, it is turned on. That gives the company reams of personal data on who we are and what we are doing, which it then vacuums up, packages and sells.

My understanding is that Facebook does not sell this data, but rather lets advertisers create hyper-targeted ads, which are only possible because of this data.

Edit: Certainly not trying to defend Facebook here (in the slightest). Just trying to correct an inaccuracy in the article.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by whoisburbansky on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:40AM (#26275831)
It's a nice bit of semantic ju-jitsu to say "they take this data and sell a service that wouldn't be possible without it" isn't the same as "selling this data," isn't it? Especially given that the targeting mechanisms don't have any k-anonymity guarantees, and I'm aware of at least one paper showing information leaks through the ad portal [1]

https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_events/122...

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by fallingknife on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:45AM (#26275905)
It isn't the same. At least only FB has my data instead of thousands of advertisers who paid for a copy. Leaks may be an issue, but it still isn't the same as selling the data to anyone who will pay.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by zepto on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:52AM (#26275993)
They really don’t sell it.

You certainly say they exploit it on behalf of their customers, but we need to maintain the distinction between this, and the companies that actually do sell the data they collect, because once sold, you can never trace who is using the data, whereas with Facebook and Google’s model, you can.

It’s also worth pointing out that it’s not in Facebook’s interest to sell the data. If they did, they would lose their advantage quite quickly.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by afiori on Saturday February 27, 2021 @06:12AM (#26284076)
i agree that there is a difference but the Cambridge Analytica scandal told a different story regarding how much your data is safe within Facebook
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by zepto on Saturday February 27, 2021 @10:44AM (#26285525)
Very true.

Facebook has definitely undermined trust on what data it shares.

However that is not it’s normal model.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by afiori on Saturday February 27, 2021 @01:22PM (#26286863)
This makes it worse in my opinion.

For example Telegram has a very specific approach to security based on "you can trust us", by default chats are not end-to-end encrypted, they use non-standard encryption and the app is free, but they are upfront on why such tradeoffs are made and their point of view in making them.

Facebook could have a position of "personalized advertising is the future" and allow ipertargeted marketing by means of gathering every scrap of data they could find. But they could draw the line to keeping it within their own databases and never distributing any of it. Apparently their main line of bussiness is exactly like that, but they do not do only that, they also partake in sharing that data.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by ChrisKnott on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:45AM (#26275900)
Seems to me like you're more playing "semantic ju-jitsu" than OP.

Facebook collect data to sell targetted adspace, they do not sell data. This is a plain fact.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by tmccrary55 on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:46AM (#26275923)
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by tmccrary55 on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:58AM (#26276892)
It's funny how a link to Facebook's recent data selling scandal, in a discussion about whether Facebook sells data, gets voted down.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by goatsi on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:24PM (#26278728)
Because that wasn't a data selling scandal? Cambridge Analytica didn't buy data on millions of people from Facebook, they harvested it for free due to lax permissions.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by firephreek on Friday February 26, 2021 @03:24PM (#26279452)
"I didn't pay for sex your honor, I simply left money on the nightstand."
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by afiori on Saturday February 27, 2021 @06:14AM (#26284090)
I guess they paid for that service and the reason they paid why they paid was the possibility to gather data. they had to gather the data themselves, but that is the difference between robbing an house and opening someone else door to robbers
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by cm2012 on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:55PM (#26279117)
"Recent" "2013"
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by mattkevan on Friday February 26, 2021 @03:14PM (#26279339)
Facebook don’t sell data, they rent out their users.

The more info they have, the more accurate they can be about renting out the right ones.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by mewpmewp2 on Friday February 26, 2021 @03:32PM (#26279530)
Renting also doesn't make any sense in this context. Facebook sells ad space, stop making up nonsensical analogies.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by cutthegrass2 on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:24AM (#26276436)
They may not "sell" access to user data, but they certainly allow access to it:

"In total, it said the social network had special arrangements with more than 150 companies to share its members' personal data. Most of these, it said, were other tech firms, but the list also included online retailers, car-makers and media organisations, including the NYT itself, among others."

source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46618582

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by saddlerustle on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:35AM (#26276577)
What that article is describing is just that the Facebook Graph API existed, which always required user consent.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by r00fus on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:42PM (#26280741)
No they just have surprise leaks of data through API usage like for Cambridge Analytica then say they were hacked, when it's all above-board.

Until/unless personal data becomes a liability for corporations they will continue to mine it and let us mortals deal with the fallout.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by mbesto on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:27PM (#26277297)
> This is a plain fact.

A plain fact that requires looking realistically at how colloquialisms are used combined with a little bit of technical know how. How many businesses do you know actually "sell data"? The only market I can think of are companies like Zoominfo. Outside of that there really aren't that many companies that "sell your data". However, you'll see a ton of social justice campaigns against "stop companies selling your data". They aren't going after Zoominfo, they're going after Facebook.

Does facebook capture data? Yes.

Do they literally take that data and sell it byte for byte to other people? No.

Is that data absolutely necessary to sell their products or services? Yes.

So, in effect, its easier to say to the common person "they're selling your data" than "they're harvesting their data so they can sell products and services". Facebook is trying to defend itself in the public eye by responding to this slogan - not by the real factor that matters.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by edmundsauto on Saturday February 27, 2021 @03:06PM (#26287691)
There are thousands of companies like ZoomInfo. They all trade csvs of data of dubious origins, mash and resell it to the highest bidder. There is a tranche of these companies who build algorithms to do fuzzy linking between huge datasets, including sources like data breaches (where name/address info is included).

There are conferences. Much of the data can be obtained as Salesforce "apps" - connect your CRM to our massive data portal and we'll fill in information that you don't have. The biggest of these is owned by SF and called Data.com.

Not to hand waive away anyone's pre-baked hatred of Google/FB/etc., but there is an actual data industry that does buy and sell your data, with no controls over it and what it can be used for. By comparison, FB and Google are much better stewards.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by atonse on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:51AM (#26275985)
They actually buy a ton of data from others. So they are encouraging a market that thrives by selling our data without our informed consent.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by zepto on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:52AM (#26276001)
Very true, and very bad, but not the same thing as selling the data themselves.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by calciphus on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:11AM (#26276262)
I hadn't heard of this recently. Where could I read more about it?
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by newscracker on Friday February 26, 2021 @08:00PM (#26281679)
Not GP. I don’t want to link to one or two specific sources, but you can find many reports by searching for “Facebook buying offline data”.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by ohgodplsno on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:52AM (#26276797)
And Facebook can absolutely go fuck itself. Whether they're collecting data for their own usage, to resell to other directly or indirectly, or for any other usage, they can get royally fucked. Especially when they are still tracking me even after deleting my account.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by prepend on Friday February 26, 2021 @01:49PM (#26278270)
Right, I mean prostitutes don’t sell sex right, they just sell access to their private parts temporarily.

From a user privacy perspective, I’m skeeved out that Facebook sells access to data rather than giving out copies. The only difference is that Facebook makes more money.

It’s like those asshole companies that say they don’t sell data, but only rent it. That’s not the point that I care about.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by madeofpalk on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:49AM (#26275952)
Well I guess there's a distinction required between what Facebook does and actual adtech/data broker companies that do outright sell .csvs of user data.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by lazzlazzlazz on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:09PM (#26280445)
Huge mental gymnastics to pretend "sell the data" and "use the data to sell something else" are the same. Baffling.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by easytiger on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:09AM (#26276230)
The thing is, localised advertising is the sweet spot that i've identified in advertising value. If you forget all other data, this is one piece of information that can provide value to both consumer and small businesses.

Facebook, if you know any small business that have a specific region of operation (e.g. one city) derive significant benefit and growth from Facebook's targeted advertising that they just were not seeing before.

Of course, if anyone logs in and fetches their data from facebook as a download and go through it, it is really rather unbelievable how much data there is beyond geographical data. Some of it pretty scary.

What intrigues me further, after i tried to do the same with google, i don't believe google are nearly as open to how much data they hold on a person. There doesn't seem to be any takeaway service that indicates the same depth of information. But of course we know for a fact they do hold some of it.

Anyway, the long and short of it is advertising is all we have to support enormous social networks and I feel some level of personalised data provides mutual benefit. It should of course all be opt in with no exceptions.

I'm actually conceptualising a service/product around this concept right now.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by summerlight on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:54PM (#26282736)
There's no incentives for Facebook to "sell" their user data as long as this is the primary advantage over their competitors including Google, Amazon, MS, etc. Big techs naturally tend to monopolize connections to its users and FB is no exception.

In fact, if they "sell" their user data, anti-trust regulators will be very happy; they want big techs to share user data to its competitors but the big techs are using user privacy and security as their excuses to rule out new competitions in the industry. Apple took the lead and other big techs are now following.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by mewpmewp2 on Friday February 26, 2021 @03:30PM (#26279510)
Selling data implies to me that in exchange for money they give actual data row by row to third parties.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by Spooky23 on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:49AM (#26275954)
"We never sell your data" is a meaningless statement. It's the online service equivalent of saying that a bottle of water is "fat free". It is consistently and prominently written because it is a definitive statement. Facebook used to feature it on the signup screen with some other statements that sound principled like "We don't charge for Facebook, and we never will", etc.

But when you parse out what it means you are left with something more accurately stated as: "<Company> will not sell its proprietary assets."

It sort of like the operator of a hotel saying "I don't sell rooms".

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by ttt0 on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:42AM (#26275857)
> My understanding is that Facebook does not sell this data

Even if they don't, Facebook is not the only app in the world. Tracking being disabled by default is a good thing, no matter what Facebook does with it.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by skeeter2020 on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:35AM (#26275774)
I would attribute this to the "packaging" the article references. As you correctly point out advertisers don't want "the data" they want the hyper-targeted ads that it allows. That's the FB value-add.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by albntomat0 on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:37AM (#26275803)
I agree, with the addition that Facebook wants to keep control of their user data and repeatedly sell it via ads, rather than directly sell it to some third party org to repackage.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by albntomat0 on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:35AM (#26275778)
I agree that the original wording could be better.

I'd phrase it more along the lines of Facebook indirectly selling the data as hypertargeted ads, while keeping control of the data themselves.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by fumar on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:58AM (#26276891)
It is not that simple. Facebook can also customer data from a variety of sources and parties. In addition, it will share measurement data to outside parties. Even if the data shared outside its walls is translated to a new ID, you still end up with an open loop where a user ID is used for targeting, measured, and potentially shared. That user ID is based on their iOS device ID and we know those are unique.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by elefanten on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:33AM (#26275747)
Maybe it doesn't sell it directly, but it certainly sells it in the sense that it turns it into a product that people can pay for.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by beervirus on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:01AM (#26276105)
I don't care if they sell it. I don't want their business partners to have my data, but I'm not any more ok with Facebook having it in the first place.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by ForHackernews on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:06AM (#26276195)
No, no, we're not selling murdered puppies! How could you think that!

We only sell the finest artisanal sausages rendered from gently-euthanised young canines.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by KineticLensman on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:55AM (#26276028)
The often-quoted statement 'if you aren't paying, you are the product' is closer to the truth but is actually misleading. As per the book on Surveillance Capitalism, our interactions with Facebook (or Google) are the raw material from which they create their products, which are sold to advertisers, namely the ability to target ads at specific groups of people.
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by tgv on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:44AM (#26275883)
Didn't they have a deal with Cambridge Analytica, rebranded as Palantir?
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by ajliu on Monday March 01, 2021 @05:49AM (#26301487)
No?
Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by reaperducer on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:21PM (#26277217)
My understanding is that Facebook does not sell this data

Selling the actual data and selling access to use the data is a meaningless distinction.

Money changes hands. The data is used.

Perhaps we should say "renting" the data. Just the way a hotel rents you a room, but you use it on the hotel's premises.

Re:Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules by dwaite on Friday February 26, 2021 @01:00PM (#26277714)
Data does not change hands. Facebook is selling services that internally operate because of processing on that data. Even then they do not sell the processed data or access to read the processed data.