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Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by balabaster on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:07AM (#26264320)
Full disclosure: I've always been anti-union for my own personal approach to life. I do see the value in unions, I've just always, to this point, been a go-it-alone-and-fight-my-own-battles kind of person. I don't want to be beholden to a union or their rules any more than I want to be beholden to an employer beyond my contractual obligations for which I'm paid.

That said, people should take note of what happened when Walmart used these tactics. Employees then went on to suffer such things as zero hour contracts, contracts where time was just shy of the legal requirement to give them benefits, pay was no more than the minimum required in any given state/province and people became slaves to their jobs because they couldn't afford the time off to find other jobs because then they wouldn't be able to make ends meet or there were no other jobs so Walmart had zero incentive to pay any more than absolutely required to by law. etc. etc. etc. because humanity is only afforded if legally required [which I personally find disgusting].

These are tactics to prevent a coalition of employees from having their rights heard and maintained... even with this coalition someone is fighting to maintain and win your rights(!!!!!) There's something very wrong with anyone having to fight for their rights to be given, but that's another discussion. In a commercial environment that allow employers to behave this way, where the only advantage to winning your rights is in a coalition of the workforce holding employers to account, unions absolutely must not only be allowed but must also be protected.

Its okay if you're bullheaded enough or within your means enough to walk away if your rights aren't given fair consideration and honoured, but if you're in a position where you're a prisoner to your job, i.e. can't afford to take time off to find another job/other income, or there are no other jobs in your area and you don't have the means to leave etc. you don't have any bargaining chip.

No employer should ever have the privilege of keeping you prisoner, nor preventing you from having a means to bargain for your very right to fair treatment.

Amazon needs to be severely reprimanded for this and taught a lesson about what it means to honour employees' rights.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by JPKab on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:37AM (#26264706)
Something that adds insult to injury is the amount of moral posturing Amazon engages in when it comes to social justice issues.

What could be a bigger social justice issue than paying working class people proper wages and benefits? It just screams out to me how hollow and PR driven their support of social justice organizations and initiatives is. And more importantly, the silence from these same social justice initiatives is deafening.

I strongly suspect that paying working class employees more money would have a far higher positive impact on black communities than donating money to activist organizations.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by hpoe on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:38PM (#26265545)
Almost like identity politics is used by those in power to distract us from real issues that have concrete impact on people's lives, instead fostering an us vs them attitude to keep us ignorant that both sides are being played by the same people.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by azinman2 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:58PM (#26265810)
Or… they actually do mean what they say, but don’t connect the dots and ultimately have a bigger incentive to cognitively shift their perspective when it comes down to their own bottom line. Amazon as a company is about low prices made up by scale, and is famous for continuously optimizing costs. Humans are just one cost to optimize, and are likely a big one given the number of people involved for their business model. These are also not “corporate employees,” which are also infamously not treated well, but the grunts that are low skilled and highly replaceable.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by arrosenberg on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:23PM (#26266197)
This response has the echoes of so many dark parts of human history. If that's actually true, then Amazon needs to be destroyed for all our sake.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by sudosteph on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:50PM (#26266542)
If it's destroyed, another retailer will take it's place. I worked at Target back in the day, and I still remember the onboarding videos they showed us. Half of it was ridiculous drivel about how much they love employees and support LGBT and minorities, and the other half was literal anti-union propaganda and fear-mongering. When it came right down to it, Target is just as happy to treat human workers as disposable tools as anyone else. Most every succesful retail company treats workers as unworthy of decent pay, benefits, or even human friendly scheduling.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by JPKab on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:31PM (#26267108)
I used to do extensive data science work with various retailers, including Target, Walmart, and Amazon.

Compared to Walmart, Target is absolutely abysmal on many fronts. The amount of wasted fuel caused by their horrifically inept logistics makes Walmart look like the Sierra Club. And they were the model for substituting low-impact inclusion messaging in place of actually treating workers decently.

I live near Boulder, Colorado, and it was infuriating seeing friends of mine protesting and proudly stopping the construction of a Walmart, while happily shopping at Target and Amazon. People are absolute lemmings when it comes to "feel-good" activism. Hearing my rather hippyish and moralistic friend talk about "Walmart destroys small businesses" while noticing the pile of Amazon packages at her door is absolutely infuriating.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by leesalminen on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:06PM (#26267557)
I also live near Boulder (Lyons what’s up!) and also had a really hard time understanding all the vitriol towards building a Wal-Mart when Target is packed day in, day out.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by Dirlewanger on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:32PM (#26267878)
The media targeting Wal-Mart allowed them to pump themselves up as a viable alternative. Also, people like their cutesy red and white commercials.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by sudosteph on Thursday February 25, 2021 @04:55PM (#26268835)
You're right about both - their marketing is really on point. But allow me to propose a few additional reasons for Target's popularity among suburban liberals:

1. Prices are slightly higher that Walmart, which keeps away the most budget conscious shoppers (ie, couponers & low-income people will go to walmart to stretch their money). Because lower-class shoppers are less visible at Target, middle-class shoppers flock to it, and even non-middle class people who can swing it may prefer it because it confers higher social status. (This is also why the common nickname for Target is "Tar - Jhey", aka, "Target" with a fake french accent to mock the aspirational bougieness of the brand).

2. Target has fairly aggressive policies about how long customers should have to wait in line (if there's more than 3 people waiting, the manager is supposed to call a sales floor person up to assist) + a policy on how long checkouts should take to complete (they actually give the cashier a pass/fail score that everyone can see after each checkout, and if the average is too low, it's grounds for dismissal). For the customer, this does mean a faster checkout. For the employees - it means more work interruptions and ultimately more work to do at closing.

3. Target doesn't even attempt to provide certain products and services that are culturally associated with rural/poor America. They don't sell guns, they don't cash checks, they don't have gardening centers.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by randomdude402 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @09:12PM (#26270749)
In my area, Target is far less crowded and has very short waits at checkout because they actually have people staffing the registers.

Walmart will have one cashier at the special register line where they sell cigarettes, during the dinnertime rush when there are 30 people up front wanting to check out.

Then there will be somebody telling you that if you don't need cigarettes, go wait in the massive line at self checkout.

I don't mind paying a couple percent more for goods if they are paying cashiers with that cash so I can go home sooner.

If those same couple bucks are what is keeping the store and parking lot less crowded... I'll take it. Walmart is a hellhole over here.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by tdeck on Friday February 26, 2021 @01:50AM (#26272005)
> Compared to Walmart, Target is absolutely abysmal on many fronts. The amount of wasted fuel caused by their horrifically inept logistics makes Walmart look like the Sierra Club.

I suppose this explains why my orders from target.com always seem to come in an absurd number of separately shipped boxes. Once I ordered a small set of nonperishable grocery items and they were delivered in maybe 7 boxes - including one toasted sized box that held only a single can of tomato paste and an air pillow. It seems to me like they must lose money on many orders.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by htrp on Thursday February 25, 2021 @08:27PM (#26270537)
I've heard amazing things about WalMart's logistics systems, care to comment a bit more about the ones at Target?
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by JPKab on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:29AM (#26276502)
I could write a novel. I'll keep it brief:

1. Walmart provides as much data as possible to it's suppliers, and expects the suppliers to use this data to then advise Walmart on projected sales and inventory in a collaborative manner. Target, on the other hand, has a data feed for it's suppliers, which is VASTLY inferior, unreliable, and the data isn't nearly as complete. A few years ago, they switched this feed from one system to another, and didn't think it was a big deal that the new system barely worked. This made the suppliers/CPG companies I advised scramble and have extreme difficulty in planning. The buyer teams at Target didn't care, and still expected the suppliers to do the same analysis.

2. Walmart has a religion of keeping items in stock and on the shelves. It's not easy to achieve, and they drop the ball at many stores on this, but it's CLEARLY not a priority at Target. They just don't have logistics as a core focus there, and it shows. My wife's experience of expecting a core item that was on the shelf last week at Target to be out of stock is typical.

3. Hearing trucking companies describe what it's like to ship goods to Target vs. WM is sad. Truckers charge extra for Target because they frequently find themselves waiting hours, sometimes days, at Target distribution centers to get their cargo offloaded. This NEVER happens at Walmart DCs. When trucking companies negotiate contracts with Target, this is something they have to "bake in". It's horrible when you hear stories from mom and pop truckers who get suckered into doing business with Target.

4. Target coporate vs. Walmart corporate: Walmart corporate has a shocking number of very high ranking executives (often in their 30s) who never went to college and worked their way up from working in stores. Bentonville, Arkansas is filled with these folks. They have a real "gut level" understanding of the stores/DCs and this is probably the only reason Walmart hasn't collapsed into gross mismanagement. Their worst executives have always been external hires. At Target, it's rare to see people who worked their way up internally in high-ranking roles. Much more typical corporate environment there.

Well, wrote a novel anyway. But yeah, that sums it up.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by nexthash on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:52PM (#26267388)
Identity politics and corporate posturing are two separate things. Everybody is trying to get an edge, including corporations trying to keep themselves prosperous. Identity politics is an idea about your identity playing into how you perceive politics. How this idea is used by different players is a whole different ballgame.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by smackmybishop on Thursday February 25, 2021 @05:54PM (#26269394)
https://observer.com/2020/04/amazon-whole-foods-anti-union-t...

> Data collected in the heat map suggest that stores with low racial and ethnic diversity, especially those located in poor communities, are more likely to unionize.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by tyingq on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:09AM (#26264362)
You appear to perhaps be from the UK (saw "honour").

Employees in the UK have quite a lot more protection by default than they do in the US. I do respect your go-it-alone-and-fight-my-own-battles position, but consider that you might feel differently if you were in a US "right to work" state.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by xrendan on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:53AM (#26264911)
I'd assume Canada since up here we've got a weird mix of americanisms and britishisms. Also, the state/province gives a bit away.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by balabaster on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:12PM (#26265147)
You're both a little right. I grew up in the UK and lived there until I was 25, I've since worked and lived in the U.S. but now live and work in Canada.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by balabaster on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:27PM (#26265367)
I don't know what it means to live in a "right to work" state. I assume that means that everyone has a right to reasonably paid employment?

I don't understand how this situation could come to be. What if there were no employers? That situation can only occur if there are enough jobs to maintain gainful employment of every citizen of the state. In such a situation I would likely only remain around as long as there was work willing to pay me what I need to maintain a lifestyle to which I was attracted.

I left Kamloops, BC in 2001 because the only jobs available there sucked (in my eyes). I was frowned upon as a snob because I turned down 3 union jobs which appeared to be the pinnacle of success in Kamloops at the time. I couldn't understand why that seemed to be the height of ambition there. I moved to Vancouver Island in the hope of better. I loved it there, but I left there in 2004, because again the only jobs available had shit pay and I couldn't afford any kind of enjoyable lifestyle. Now I live outside Toronto and enjoy a much more financially comfortable lifestyle... at the cost of an almost complete lack of scenery admittedly. I've never been one to stick around when the economic situation wasn't viable. I couldn't see myself sticking around in a "right to work" state if that's what it meant. I don't really see how it would change my opinion either.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by sonofhans on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:41PM (#26265578)
> I don’t know what it means to live in a “right to work” state. I assume that means that everyone has a right to reasonably paid employment?

It’s Doublespeak. It’s a union-busting law. Effectively, it means the opposite — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by astrange on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:43PM (#26267275)
Btw, in other countries that use sectoral bargaining systems this law wouldn't stop unionization, because the union contract applies across the industry rather than one company at a time. This makes it more impersonal, but companies are no longer motivated to stop unions because they'll become less competitive, and it works well enough in places like Denmark that they don't have minimum wage laws.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by twh270 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:48PM (#26265674)
I don't know how things work in the UK, but here in the states various bills/acts are often given misleading names because politics. In this case, "right to work" means, basically, the right to take a job without either having to join a union or being prohibited from joining a union.

There's debate over what the impact of "right to work" is, and of course, what role unions should play.

Another term that might interest you is "at will employment". This one means that your employer can fire you at any time for any reason that isn't illegal; and, you can leave your employer at any time for any reason that isn't illegal. This one is also argued intensely as to whether it is more favorable to the employer, employee, or neither.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by cujo on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:43PM (#26265617)
Right-to-work effectively weakens unions, but is sold under the reasonable sounding rhetoric. The common pitch is something like...

> Right-to-work means that you can work in a union trade without joining the union. Otherwise you have to join and pay the union to work in your profession. Why should you have to pay to work as a <insert profession here>? Support right-to-work!

That's how I often see it sold. In the end, it means unions get weaker in industries that need them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law#Arguments_fo...

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by Someone on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:40PM (#26265576)
I guess “right to work” refers to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law:

“In the context of U.S. labor politics, "right-to-work laws" refers to state laws that prohibit union security agreements between employers and labor unions. Under these laws, employees in unionized workplaces are banned from negotiating contracts which force employees who are not union members to contribute to the costs of union representation.”

So, in such states, the (union, employer) combo cannot force every employee to pay the union (employees can choose not to become a member, but still would have to pay them)

I don’t understand how that fits in the story, though. I guess the OP meant “at will”?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment): “In U.S. labor law, at-will employment is an employer's ability to dismiss an employee for any reason (that is, without having to establish "just cause" for termination), and without warning, as long as the reason is not illegal.”

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by unanswered on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:22PM (#26266186)
That is an incomplete and misleading definition of "at-will employment". The most important part of at-will employment is that the employee is allowed to leave their employer for any time, for any reason; i.e., they can't be forced to work for their employer even by contract. It is literally just an anti-slavery law, and yet somehow some folks have turned it into a bogeyman. Imagine being against an anti-slavery law because ____?
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by whydoibother on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:59PM (#26266683)
How is that the most important part? Slavery is already illegal outside of prisons. You know very well this is so companies can cut employees whenever they need to and not face legal repercussions.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by tablespoon on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:01PM (#26266704)
> That is an incomplete and misleading definition of "at-will employment". The most important part of at-will employment is that the employee is allowed to leave their employer for any time, for any reason; i.e., they can't be forced to work for their employer even by contract. It is literally just an anti-slavery law, and yet somehow some folks have turned it into a bogeyman. Imagine being against an anti-slavery law because ____?

Honestly, I'd say you're being more hyperbolic and misleading. At-will employment is "just an anti-slavery law?" I'm pretty sure that was already illegal before these laws, and at-will employment wasn't the mechanism for its abolition.

My understanding is that the actual effect of at-will employment laws wasn't to free employees from jobs they didn't want, but to make their positions more precarious (e.g. previously employers had to give a good reason for termination or it was invalid, or at least give notice).

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by beowulfey on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:39PM (#26267971)
Lol, an anti-slavery law? Better not tell Montana that, it would become a human rights atrocity overnight. They are not an at-will state.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by nextaccountic on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:46PM (#26266498)
> I don't know what it means to live in a "right to work" state. I assume that means that everyone has a right to reasonably paid employment?

It's the opposite! It means you can be fired for any reason whatsoever.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by arachnids on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:36PM (#26265507)
"Right to work" is American euphemism for your employer being able to fire you at will for no cause
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by yohannparis on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:04PM (#26265917)
It mostly means that you are not forced to be part of a union to work. Which is something I agree with. But I highly encourage people to be part of an union.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by pseudalopex on Thursday February 25, 2021 @04:52PM (#26268813)
You can never be forced to join a union. Federal law forces unions to represent non members. "Right to work" means non members can force them to do it for free. Other states let unions force non members to pay for what the union is forced to provide them.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by filoleg on Thursday February 25, 2021 @09:09PM (#26270735)
Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this law simply prevent a situation where a non-union employee would be forced to pay the union fees even if he doesn't want to be a part of the union in a unionized workplace? If yes, how is it a bad thing for employees?

Genuine question, because I don't understand the issue. If they want to join a union and pay the associated fees, they are welcome to. If they just wanna work a job without joining a union and paying their fees, they can do that as well. How is it a bad thing, unless you consider forcing those employees who don't care about unions to still contribute fees a good thing?

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by pseudalopex on Thursday February 25, 2021 @10:01PM (#26270969)
It isn't simple because federal law forces the union to represent non members still. Free riding is good for free riders. It's bad for people who pay for it.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by unanswered on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:24PM (#26266213)
This has nothing to do with "right to work".

"Right to work" is literally the right to work for any employer who will have you regardless of whether you're in a union or not in a union.

You should question where you got the misleading definition of "right to work" and cui bono? by feeding you that misinformation.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by strken on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:21AM (#26271604)
In that user's defense, the practical outcome of right-to-work from the perspective of someone who doesn't have it is that you can quit or get fired without notice.

The definition of US gun laws isn't "you can have most semi-auto rifles unless you've gone to jail, you live in California and the rifle looks scary, or the barrel is too short", but it's probably how someone would explain the practical outcome.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by phabora on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:58PM (#26265802)
Not really euphemism. More of an Orwellian term.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by TameAntelope on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:56PM (#26266632)
Anti-union tactics are so... nasty. It's crazy to me how any of this is even tried in the 21st century. It's so obviously wrong and in a ton of cases illegal, the only reason I can think of that this is done so aggressively is that these tactics are "effective" based on their invention in the early-to-mid 20th century, and nobody's bothered to try and innovate since.

Does Amazon really see unionization as an existential threat? Surely at some point, a company as large as Amazon or Walmart can handle a worker's union.

What other perceived "existential threats" are they handling with these kinds of tactics, that we just don't know about because it's not as public?

(Disclaimer: I benefit substantially off of Walmart's continued ability to make money.)

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by ImaCake on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:26PM (#26267811)
The weird thing about this anti-union stuff is that there is fair argument to be made that Amazon would do just as well if they let them unionise and get what they wanted. Australia has a long history of strong unions and the result has been a strong economy and effectively run state. Same kind of thing in many other countries. Those of us outside of the US are often surprised by how little rights are given to workers there.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by soperj on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:18AM (#26264479)
So they were both reduced hours and beholden to their jobs with no time off?
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by vertex-four on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:31AM (#26264638)
When you’re paid minimum wage in the US, and you’re not permitted to perform a full-time job, you probably have to hold down multiple jobs; you probably also don’t get things like healthcare from any of them.

Zero hours contracts in theory mean you can refuse work (at least that’s how it works in the U.K.), but obviously you’re going to be fired for doing so, so you’re essentially constantly on call for both/all your jobs.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by soperj on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:45AM (#26264808)
if you have multiple jobs, then you clearly have time to find another job.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by vertex-four on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:35PM (#26266348)
If you have multiple jobs and must take every hour they ask of you, you clearly do not have time to find another job; you are very likely working more than a full-time job without adequate protections.

Look, here’s how it goes:

1) you have no job

2) you take the first job that comes your way, even if it doesn’t actually pay enough to survive - a little money is better than no money

3) you take the second job that comes your way so that you can survive

4) you have no time to actually do anything towards getting a better job

Understand?

This is why jobs that pay less than what is needed to survive are bad for individuals and bad for society; people have to take them. Nobody is going to help you survive otherwise.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by soperj on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:33PM (#26267133)
if you have multiple jobs, you already have another job, so it was clearly possible.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by jackson1442 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @10:21PM (#26271059)
The difference here is that the second job you have is likely going to be just as terrible as your first, where the improvement comes not from having a better job but simply having access to more hours and therefore more hourly pay.

Searching for a job that is _mechanically better_ (think office job versus min-wage retail) is significantly more challenging than finding a min-wage job. For example, most salaried or otherwise higher paying jobs require multiple rounds of interviews while many min-wage jobs will hire you on the spot to fill a staff position.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by TaylorAlexander on Thursday February 25, 2021 @04:42PM (#26268700)
No. It means it’s possible to find a second job when you only have one. It doesn’t mean that once you’ve found a second job you still have time to search for an improved job.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by vertex-four on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:15AM (#26275555)
You’re intentionally not getting it. I don’t know how to make this clearer than what I wrote, especially as you haven’t actually responded to what i wrote.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by soperj on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:15AM (#26276328)
I'd would say that you are intentionally not getting it. I wasn't responding to you, I was clarifying for your benefit. As someone who's worked minimum wage jobs, I know exactly how it is, so I really don't need to be told. I'm also my union rep at work, so this isn't coming from a anti-union stance in the slightest, I absolutely see the value.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by vertex-four on Tuesday March 02, 2021 @03:54AM (#26313278)
So when you were working multiple minimum wage jobs because one didn’t cover your living costs, did you have time to find something better? Could you quit them to find something better? My friends sure don’t and can’t.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by dcrn on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:57AM (#26264978)
Many times, if you're having to take on another job, you don't have the luxury of "time" to find the best one, e.g. pays well, has benefits, etc. You take the first or second job that comes to you and work for as much time as possible at that one as well. Speaking from experience, people don't take on multiple jobs just to work them for an hour or two a day.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by ruined on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:25PM (#26265338)
no, working an additional job does not give you more hours in a day. rather it consumes time. what do you do at work?
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by soperj on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:35PM (#26265482)
I'm responding to what's written. If you have a job at walmart, they can't both have zero time to find another job because of being beholden to their job at walmart and have another job.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by Cederfjard on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:37PM (#26266372)
...but they can have zero time to find another job because of being beholden to their job at Walmart, and to the other job?

You're saying they should keep the Walmart job and get rid of the other, and spend the time freed up searching for one that's full time and paid enough to replace both, right? But if you can't support yourself and your dependants on the Walmart job alone, then that's risky.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by soperj on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:35PM (#26267158)
if they have the other job already, then they clearly had time. I'm not saying they should do anything. I'm saying it doesn't make sense that you can be beholden to a job because of too many hours, and have reduced hours. It's one or the other.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by astrange on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:46PM (#26267314)
This is covered by search theory in economics. (economists do not use "supply and demand" for jobs, rather they consider things like search time and monopsony power.)
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by wittyreference on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:36PM (#26265513)
39 hours + "you come running when we call or you lose it."

It's just shy of full-time (to withhold benefits), but not exactly the same thing as a side gig. And you're bent over a barrel.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by balabaster on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:13PM (#26265167)
Both situations applied to different people. I'd find it weirdly paradoxical for one person to find themselves in both situations simultaneously.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by koolba on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:30AM (#26264627)
Easily possible. Show up for one hour, ever other hour, to perform task X. I pay you for four hours and you need to be on call for eight daily.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by fastball on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:24PM (#26265331)
So... quit?
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by xphilter on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:26AM (#26264588)
How is that contradictory?
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by soperj on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:45AM (#26264800)
if they have reduced hours, then they have time to find another job.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by ska on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:51PM (#26266559)
What about irregular scheduling? Surely that can have a big impact on ability to find/keep other work I imagine.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by passivate on Thursday February 25, 2021 @05:56PM (#26269409)
>Its okay if you're bullheaded enough or within your means enough to walk away if your rights aren't given fair consideration and honoured, but if you're in a position where you're a prisoner to your job, i.e. can't afford to take time off to find another job/other income, or there are no other jobs in your area and you don't have the means to leave etc. you don't have any bargaining chip.

This is the core issue. Would a federal level solution work? Maybe then people won't feel like the only solution is to form a union.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by phabora on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:55PM (#26265776)
Some people are privileged enough to be able to get jobs where they don’t need collective bargaining to get decently fair compensation and decent working conditions.