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Re:How this Ends by adamcstephens on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @03:43PM (#26171468)
Or it ends in a market crash. When interest rates are zero, savers have no choice to build on wealth except the market. This is why the market continues to hit higher and higher records, and at some point people will lose trust in the market and flee.

Hyperinflation can always come after the bubble bursts.

Re:How this Ends by JMTQp8lwXL on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:58PM (#26174549)
Is there anything wrong with using markets to store value? Must we also have government bonds to store value? If you're in a diversified US index fund, it's basically a bet that the US will continue to do well. If it doesn't, you have bigger problems than the financial.
Re:How this Ends by Barrin92 on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:25PM (#26175232)
the primary purpose of a market is supposed to be to accurately allocate productive resources and pick winners and losers. In a market constantly flush with cash where everyone just buys index funds that discriminatory function basically vanishes and you have a political commitment to always make the stonks go up even if it supports zombie firms. Which is already the case tbh.

Same with housing. Nimbyism is such a big deal in the US because rather than seeing housing as a utility that should be cheap, it's become a store of value that must always go up.

Re:How this Ends by tachyonbeam on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @11:26PM (#26175794)
There's a growing movement to get away from index funds. This year, tech stocks have exploded. ARK Invest has vastly outperformed the S&P 500 and Nasdaq-100. Ultra-low interest rates tend to have people going for increasingly high-risk, speculative investments, such as tech companies. The bolder and more futuristic the vision, the better. Obviously, this could end badly as well, but, people are starting to pick individual stocks instead of index funds.
Re:How this Ends by JMTQp8lwXL on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @11:35PM (#26175845)
The problem is knowing when to enter and exit the sector-specific funds. It might beat the S&P in a trailing 12 month window, but it's unlikely to do so over a 5 or 10 year window.
Re:How this Ends by throw0101a on Thursday February 18, 2021 @09:20AM (#26180053)
> ARK Invest has vastly outperformed the S&P 500 and Nasdaq-100.

There are always funds that do better, until they don't:

* https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2020/12/a-short-history-of-...

Over a 15-year timeframe, most fund managers (especially in the US) underperform benchmarks:

* https://www.ifa.com/articles/despite_brief_reprieve_2018_spi...

Re:How this Ends by hyko on Thursday February 18, 2021 @01:01AM (#26176489)
It will definitely end badly. I guess it’s driven by desperation for returns. Diversification is a risk reduction strategy as old as the Bible; stock picking is not about preserving wealth or growing wealth, it’s about bootstrapping it.
Re:How this Ends by marcosdumay on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:30PM (#26175286)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using paper markets to store value.

The problem appears when valuation are caused only by the "store of value" usage, because it has no anchor on the real world, and thus, can vary freely from 0 to infinity.

Re:How this Ends by hyko on Thursday February 18, 2021 @12:54AM (#26176447)
There’s nothing wrong with storing your possessions in your car; it’s just not what it was designed for and your possessions are at greater risk of theft.

Similarly, if you need a risk-free value store (e.g. because you’re very close to retirement) the market is not going to provide that for you.

Edited to add: clarification about the analogy.

Re:How this Ends by jacquesm on Thursday February 18, 2021 @03:10AM (#26177266)
That and real estate prices. People borrow insane amounts of money right now because they can due to the ridiculously low (in some places negative!) interest rates. Once those go up to reasonable levels (say, 5...10 % annually) suddenly they won't be able to pay for their house anymore and it's 2008 all over again.
Re:How this Ends by Cthulhu_ on Thursday February 18, 2021 @04:47AM (#26177905)
When getting a mortgage, at least on my side of the pond, you get the option to fix the interest. I've set mine to 30 years fixed (the duration of the mortgage), because a few years ago it already seemed like the rates were bottoming out. I was wrong, but I don't regret fixing my mortgage interest rate.

A more pressing matter is that people are no longer able to afford a house, especially if they're young / early in their career.

Re:How this Ends by bambax on Thursday February 18, 2021 @05:52AM (#26178354)
Same here. I would never have borrowed money on a variable interest rate.
Re:How this Ends by panarky on Thursday February 18, 2021 @01:13PM (#26183349)
I bought a home in 1998 with a variable-rate mortgage.

The interest rate was 7.5% and my friends told me I was foolish not to pay 9.0% for a 30-year fixed rate mortgage. They calculated nightmare scenarios if rates doubled or tripled while theirs held constant.

Every year since then, my interest rate reset downward until it hit the lower limit of 2%. Even though my required payment decreased, I kept paying the original payment amount and paid off the loan 10 years early.

My friends paid hundreds of thousands in additional interest over the years for the peace of mind of a fixed rate.

PSA: 2021 to 2031 might be different than 1998 to 2018.

Re:How this Ends by pbronez on Friday February 19, 2021 @07:16AM (#26192312)
Yes, but you can always refinance a fixed rate mortgage into a new fixed rate mortgage at a lower rate. You have to do it intentionally, and it’s optional, so you only do it when the rate moves in your favor. Variable rate mortgages change automatically, which means they can move against you.
Re:How this Ends by bambax on Thursday February 18, 2021 @02:59PM (#26184665)
Sure. When you gamble, sometimes you win. I'd still rather not try though.
Re:How this Ends by panarky on Tuesday February 23, 2021 @02:01AM (#26234557)
Isn't deciding to pay a higher fixed rate also a gamble where sometimes you win and sometimes you lose?
Re:How this Ends by zepto on Thursday February 18, 2021 @02:48PM (#26184539)
That was then. Today you can get a fixed rate in the high 2% range. If rates rise as expected, it will be those who chose the fixed rates who will be OK, and those who chose variable will be screwed.
Re:How this Ends by djrobstep on Thursday February 18, 2021 @06:36AM (#26178652)
Where do you live that you can fix a mortgage rate for 30 years? This is impossible (or at least, highly rare) in Australia (you can get a fixed rate but only for up to ~5 years).
Re:How this Ends by nemo44x on Thursday February 18, 2021 @07:06AM (#26178890)
In the USA it’s pretty standard. The 30 year fixed rate mortgage is probably the most popular by far. And then you refinance it over time as rates fall.

Adjustable rate mortgages exist too but got a lot of people in trouble in 2008. I think a lot of them are only allowed to adjust by a certain percentage regardless of interest rates each year they’re eligible to.

Re:How this Ends by spacedcowboy on Thursday February 18, 2021 @08:31AM (#26179570)
It also keeps the minimum payment lowish - I went for a 30-year fixed, refinanced it once when rates went crazy low, and paid roughly double what I needed to (apart from months when I couldn’t). It paid off in ~13 years. I could have got a 15-year fixed on slightly lower rates, but the flexibility was worth the rate delta for me.
Re:How this Ends by cbm-vic-20 on Thursday February 18, 2021 @08:26AM (#26179523)
And this isn't a recent trend, either. The 30 year fixed rate mortgage has been pretty standard since at least the 1980s.
Re:How this Ends by astura on Thursday February 18, 2021 @08:37AM (#26179628)
It's standard in the USA because of government policy. (Mainly Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac). 30 year fixed rate wouldn't exist in the free market.

https://www.marketplace.org/2018/10/31/why-do-we-have-30-yea...

Re:How this Ends by throw0101a on Thursday February 18, 2021 @09:09AM (#26179954)
You can get 10-year fixed rates in Canada:

* https://www.ratespy.com/best-mortgage-rates/10-year/fixed

* https://www.ratehub.ca/best-mortgage-rates/10-year/fixed

For down payments <20% mortgage insurance is needed (usually from the federal government subsidiary, like Fannie/Freddie), but not for larger down payments: that's all free market.

Some institutions offer 18- and 25-year terms.

Re:How this Ends by harperlee on Thursday February 18, 2021 @04:32PM (#26185928)
A fixed rate is just a derivative product (an Interest Rate Swap) attached to the mortgage, and people are happy to buy and sell them, why would you say it would not exist in a free market?

Case in point: there is no such government policy in Spain, yet most banks happily offer fixed rates.

You just need to hedge the fixed mortgage you are selling and add some interest to make profit.

Re:How this Ends by rmujica on Thursday February 18, 2021 @09:21PM (#26188762)
30 year fixed rate is quite common in Chile, and the mortgage and housing industry is fully deregulated here
Re:How this Ends by rwmj on Thursday February 18, 2021 @07:30AM (#26179047)
In the USA it's apparently common, but seems unusual everywhere else. In the UK, 5 years is the maximum and 2 years is more common. People rely on rolling over the mortgage to a new fixed-rate offer, but that can be problematic as it's not guaranteed that good offers will be available after the fixed term, and as many found out in 2009, it's not guaranteed that fixed rate mortgages will be available at all. Also it costs a ton of money and time to roll over the mortgage because you're essentially buying the house all over again.
Re:How this Ends by rsync on Thursday February 18, 2021 @04:11PM (#26185598)
"In the USA it's apparently common, but seems unusual everywhere else."

It's not just common in the US, it is the de facto standard across almost all mortgage types and sizes. Even weird, non-conforming properties with "jumbo" sized loans can get fixed at 30 years.

Also, I will point out that in both Switzerland and the Nordic Countries, 40 and 50 year mortgages are now in very common use:

"Repayment periods in Switzerland can be incredibly long, with deals lasting between 50 and 100 years being relatively common."[1]

"Swedish regulators calculated in 2013 that the average mortgage term was around 140 years."[2]

In fact, now that I think about it, I am surprised that the US culture of "financial innovation" has not produced more standardized long-duration mortgages ... I do not know anyone, for instance, with a 40-year term ...

[1] https://www.expatica.com/ch/housing/buying/your-guide-to-swi...

[2] https://www.thelocal.se/20160324/sweden-limits-mortgage-loan...

Re:How this Ends by spacedcowboy on Thursday February 18, 2021 @08:20AM (#26179480)
You can get 10-year fixed in the UK {1], and even that limit is surprising to me. I thought 20-year fixed was available (pretty sure it used to be) but apparently no more...

[1] https://moneyfacts.co.uk/mortgages/10-year-fixed-rate/

Re:How this Ends by throw0101a on Thursday February 18, 2021 @09:13AM (#26179988)
Re:How this Ends by seppel on Thursday February 18, 2021 @07:20AM (#26178987)
It is no problem is Germany but expensive. I personally had not problem to fix it for 10 years and decide then.
Re:How this Ends by llimos on Thursday February 18, 2021 @09:28AM (#26180120)
In Israel it's fairly standard. In fact, you're only allowed a third of the mortgage to _not_ be fixed.
Re:How this Ends by teekert on Thursday February 18, 2021 @07:04AM (#26178865)
In the Netherlands 10 years was the norm, now, judging from people I know, it's 20 years.
Re:How this Ends by dragonwriter on Thursday February 18, 2021 @01:20PM (#26183452)
Since 2008, from everything I've seen lenders are much more restrained about creditworthiness, so there are probably far fewer people buying houses that are only marginally affordable initially, with variable rates, and an interest-only initial period or other pre-programmed increase in basic payments. So I don't think the risk of that kind is as great as going into 2008.

But, yes, buying with variable rate mortgages when interest is at historic lows rather than paying a little bit extra initially for fixed rates is risky, and on a society wide scale that risk is going to materialize at some level.

Re:How this Ends by wait_a_minute on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:53PM (#26174504)
The majority of Americans do not have any real (or any at all) amounts of money invested in the market. That may change slowly as more people come online, but right now the majority of the stock is owned by a small percentage of the workers of the country. I'd expect there to be a very long road ahead of us before we find most Americans holding a sizable amount of their capital in the market or even in a bank account at all.
Re:How this Ends by ErikAugust on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @09:32PM (#26174757)
"Just a modest majority of Americans, some 55%, own stocks, according to an April 2020 poll by Gallup, which asks whether households owned stocks either directly or as part of a fund."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/teresaghilarducci/2020/08/31/mo...

Re:How this Ends by nealabq on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @09:47PM (#26174864)
And about 35% own stocks, bonds or mutual funds outside of retirement accounts.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/09/25/few-in-u-s-...

Re:How this Ends by robotresearcher on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @09:13PM (#26174642)
"Around 42% of the working-age population with a full-time job has a 401(k) or similar plan, and those funds are overwhelmingly invested in stocks"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-stocks...

Re:How this Ends by wahern on Thursday February 18, 2021 @12:34AM (#26176307)
> only 33 percent of the population worked full time or more in 2016.

Source: https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2018/05/01/only-1-in-3-...

> In 2018, the average account balance for Vanguard participants was $92,148; the median balance was $22,217. [emphasize added]

Source: https://pressroom.vanguard.com/nonindexed/Research-How-Ameri...

33% * %42 = ~14%. And while the number is debatable, depending on how we define "significant", only a portion of that 14% has significant wealth invested in the stock market.

I agree with the previous poster. The vast majority of Americans (including employed Americans) aren't invested in the stock market in any meaningful way.

Re:How this Ends by thinkingkong on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @03:48PM (#26171525)
Flee to where?
Re:How this Ends by tofurocks on Thursday February 18, 2021 @05:49AM (#26178325)
Sealed Pokemon booster boxes
Re:How this Ends by adamcstephens on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @03:56PM (#26171658)
Why not cash? It doesn't matter where they flee to. Once everyone distrusts the market, a positive feedback loop begins and prices crater.
Re:How this Ends by nostrademons on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @04:09PM (#26171817)
The same applies to cash once a critical mass of people believe there's an effectively unlimited amount of it flooding the market. That's what hyperinflation is. You really don't want to be in cash if that happens.

See the performance of Venezuela's stock market over the last 5 years:

https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/stock-market

(The "crash" in late 2018 was the redenomination of the bolivar at a 1:1000 ratio, which affected everything denominated in bolivars, including the stock market.)

Re:How this Ends by adamcstephens on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @04:19PM (#26171932)
Ok, a savings account so that you can take advantage of the inflation?

Honestly wealth growth is the least of my worries if we have another 1929 level crash or hyperinflation.

Re:How this Ends by nealabq on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @09:55PM (#26174932)
My grandfather bought a mansion in SF (Dolores St) for $8K in 1934 (approx). You can optimize for a 1929-style crash (hold cash), and you can even plan for hyperinflation (anything but cash), so the trick is to figure out which way to go.
Re:How this Ends by pashamur on Thursday February 18, 2021 @12:50AM (#26176418)
I think that's the appeal of Bitcoin and/or Gold: it's both cash in that it might act as a safe haven in the case of an asset crash and would retain it's value during hyperinflation (since you can't print more of it).

Though bitcoin has really been untested as a safe asset and currently behaves more like a speculative one.

Re:How this Ends by panarky on Thursday February 18, 2021 @01:29PM (#26183585)
I think Bitcoin has huge potential right now, even after its recent run up. It could easily 4x to 6x from here, before the next halving. It could also drop by half, but at least the rewards are asymmetric with the risks.

But even though I'm optimistic about Bitcoin, I don't see it as crash-proof except in one crash scenario. It's mostly a speculative risk-on asset that loses value in crisis scenarios. We saw that in the covid crash in March last year as Bitcoin prices tumbled along with other markets.

The one crash scenario where Bitcoin doesn't crash is if Bitcoin is the thing that triggers a crisis of confidence in fiat assets. That's the hyperbitcoinization scenario that still looks improbable, but easier to imagine now than it was a couple years ago.

Re:How this Ends by cft on Thursday February 18, 2021 @04:58AM (#26177989)
Gold has been confiscated by FDR. Bitcoin clamp down is coming: we have recently learned from Yellen that it's primarily a terrorist tool, and that it also causes global warming.
Re:How this Ends by cbm-vic-20 on Thursday February 18, 2021 @08:31AM (#26179573)
"it also causes global warming."

It would be interesting to see how much the gold mining industry contributes to global warming (including not just extraction, but processing and shipping). Trading, too, but I suppose that's done mostly by contract, and not shipping gold bars around...

Re:How this Ends by adamcstephens on Thursday February 18, 2021 @11:51AM (#26182181)
Yep, and I have a diversified portfolio with a big chunk in cash. Most people don’t have cash though, because the market makes them more money.

When the next crash does come, I’m ready to buy.

Re:How this Ends by Dirlewanger on Thursday February 18, 2021 @12:28PM (#26182738)
You and I both, only problem is that we've been waiting since before Trump took office for a crash...
Re:How this Ends by sobani on Friday February 19, 2021 @03:43AM (#26190938)
If the crash of March 2020 wasn't big enough for you, I'm afraid you're going to be waiting a very long time.
Re:How this Ends by braveyellowtoad on Thursday February 18, 2021 @12:51AM (#26176427)
But which way is it going to go? Is there a set of investments that will benefit off either outcome?
Re:How this Ends by reducesuffering on Thursday February 18, 2021 @11:14PM (#26189625)
No one knows nothing. That's why you diversify across cash, gold, bonds, US stocks, international stocks, etc.
Re:How this Ends by mattmanser on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @04:35PM (#26172103)
I thought banks don't actually keep up with the hyperinflation, so your saving eventually dwindle to worthless.
Re:How this Ends by david927 on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @03:54PM (#26171624)
Precious metals, commodities
Re:How this Ends by jacquesm on Thursday February 18, 2021 @03:10AM (#26177269)
Real estate. That's essentially an infinite sized sink for surplus capital.
Re:How this Ends by david927 on Thursday February 18, 2021 @01:39PM (#26183716)
Primary residence real estate, yes! But otherwise, no. It's the least liquid asset class and liquidity will be king.
Re:How this Ends by scarmig on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @06:51PM (#26173523)
RMB?
Re:How this Ends by tambeb on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:22PM (#26175206)
Beanie Babies
Re:How this Ends by the-dude on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @03:51PM (#26171575)
Crypto?
Re:How this Ends by toomuchtodo on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @03:53PM (#26171609)
Central banks will outlaw it because they can't control it and devalue it (either through negative interest rates or helicopter money).

Remember when the US outlawed holding gold? [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Re:How this Ends by PragmaticPulp on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @04:34PM (#26172097)
People are giving too much credit to cryptocurrencies as the only vehicle for dodging inflation. Any asset that rises with inflation (most of them) is a sufficient vehicle for avoiding having your cash devalued.

People could simply exchange their domestic currencies for foreign currencies of more stable countries. That's what happens in countries with hyperinflation right now, despite access to cryptocurrency.

The only real advantage of cryptocurrency is that it could be transferred around hypothetical government controls. That's more of an extreme edge case scenario, though.

To be clear: The US inflation is too high, IMO, but it's nowhere near hyperinflation or government collapse. The average citizen is more likely to benefit from recent stimulus packages than to lose out from it. It's not like everyone keeps their 401K invested in pure cash.

That said, we're overdue for interest rates to start creeping up. COVID is coming to an end quickly and the unemployment never really got out of control in the first place. People aren't going to go bankrupt if their mortgages go back to 4-5% instead of 2-3%

Re:How this Ends by nostrademons on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @05:01PM (#26172395)
> People could simply exchange their domestic currencies for foreign currencies of more stable countries

Most of the developed nations are competitively devaluing their currencies. If one country does it, they gain a trade advantage: their exports are relatively cheaper on the world market, so consumption flows to their industries and makes them wealthy. Therefore once one country does it, they all have to do it, lest all their export industries become uncompetitive and they lose those jobs.

I've heard some speculation (nicely backed up by data [1]) that the real reason we couldn't follow through with monetary tightening 2015-2018 is because it created a carry trade of investors borrowing in Euros and investing in dollars [2], which led to a continual outflow of dollars out the door.

If hyperinflation hits it will likely hit nearly all the developed world in short succession. If the dollar goes, all investors are going to dump dollars for Euros, but if they do that the value of the Euro will skyrocket, which means European exports will become super expensive and Euro-denominated debt will be harder to pay off, which will spur European central banks to dump more Euros into the system. As long as we have free capital flows there's no way around this: inflation in one fiat currency will lead to inflation in others. That's why people are looking for non-fiat currencies. (You're right that tradable assets like stocks can fulfill this job rather than cryptocurrency, though.)

[1] https://www.pimco.com.br/-/media/global-assets/resources/edu...

[2] https://www.ft.com/content/fe099068-169d-11ea-8d73-6303645ac...

Re:How this Ends by paganel on Thursday February 18, 2021 @05:52AM (#26178351)
> As long as we have free capital flows there's no way around this

I think that's the gist of it, and as such I also think that free capital flows will be massively restrained in the scenario you mention (a scenario which I also find very likely).

A similar thing has just happened with the freedom of movement for people, a "right" that the great majority of us had taken for granted, and then Covid came and that "right" was forgotten about like it never had existed.

Re:How this Ends by dageshi on Thursday February 18, 2021 @08:32AM (#26179583)
The ECB is a lot more politically constrained than other central banks. It doesn't have a single master but is beholden to various degrees to the member states of the EU and especially Germany which is utterly paranoid about currency devaluation.

Don't forget the ECB raised rates during the onset of the financial crisis circa 2007-8 when everyone else was cutting desperately because of their inflation targetting mandate.

Re:How this Ends by AngrySkillzz on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:03PM (#26175023)
Buying Bitcoin to hedge inflation instead of just buying TIPS is like saying: I think the price of AAPL will go down, so I'm going to get some lottery tickets.
Re:How this Ends by jjoonathan on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:21PM (#26175197)
When assets are skyrocketing but "inflation is low" it makes me think the inflation indexes are rigged as an excuse to print money.
Re:How this Ends by AngrySkillzz on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:28PM (#26175254)
And you would be wrong. Inflation != asset prices. Don't make me post the global savings glut thing again... Also "rigged" is just conspiracy language. YOU CAN LITERALLY LOOK UP THE INDEX YOURSELF. Channel your inner hacker and do it, learn something, you don't need anyone's permission. I'll even help.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_consumption_expenditu...

Re:How this Ends by jjoonathan on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:42PM (#26175418)
I'll give you the "Angry" part, but you're going to have to work harder to convince me of "Skillzz." I can imagine a thousand ways to "rig" an inflation index to rationalize money printing. A couple years of latency here, a trimmed mean over there to exclude assets, bingo bango mission accomplished. Money printer goes brrrrr!

I actually have spent considerable time poking through the basket definitions and while I was generally impressed by the effort I saw, the extreme sensitivity to minutiae and extreme incentives to obtain a particular conclusion make me hesitate to bet my portfolio on its integrity. I haven't re-implemented their entire methodology in an economic model and run monte-carlo simulations to evaluate their competence in the face of obvious hypotheticals but I'm pretty sure you haven't either. By comparison, "bet on assets to hedge inflation" requires much less concentrated faith in the continued wellbeing of a convenient scapegoat.

Re:How this Ends by AngrySkillzz on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:50PM (#26175490)
From a programmer's perspective, you are right that there are no technical barriers to constructing an arbitrary index that delivers whatever value of inflation you want. But of course that is the case for most human things. Which is why institutions are important - hopefully while we are over here being honest and thinking hard about programming, there are people over there being honest and thinking hard about the consumption basket. But then a lot of us work in adtech so maybe that honesty is questionable...

And then there are the other even more severely complicated parts. If next year's iPhone is better but costs the same amount, that's deflation. You got more for the same amount of money. How do we quantify that? Those are called hedonic improvements. How do you account for free services? What is Google worth? What if a new thing comes out that has never existed before? How do you compare that to the previous consumption basket? It would be relatively easy to argue that the preponderance of brand-new, incomparable, improving every year, cheap/free tech stuff that we are living in a relatively deflationary environment. You get more, better stuff every year for less money!

Re:How this Ends by jjoonathan on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:55PM (#26175534)
Hedonic improvements like the ones used to multiply up Intel's revenue in order to claim that "US manufacturing is doing better than ever!" while we were shipping our entire industrial infrastructure to China?

https://qz.com/1269172/the-epic-mistake-about-manufacturing-...

I found that episode informative and convincing, but in the exact opposite direction. I stuck my neck out on the basis of those numbers while arguing with conservative family members and it turns out the numbers were rigged after all. For a very reasonable definition of rigged.

In the face of shenanigans, I tend to put more faith in simple concepts like "assets hedge inflation" than in indices.

Re:How this Ends by AngrySkillzz on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @11:21PM (#26175739)
I'll take the other side of that argument. It's an interesting article! But it doesn't make me think that the numbers are "rigged," just that they have been misinterpreted. Semiconductors are getting way better, and have been for a few decades, and that counts as an awesome productivity improvement in manufacturing. If you just look at the top-line number, it says "manufacturing is getting more productive," which in an aggregate sense is still true! But it seems a lot of people though that meant "manufacturing is getting more productive because we have a lot of robots" even though manufacturing employment is declining, rather than "manufacturing is getting more productive because our semiconductor fabs are awesome and the rest of the sector is bleeding out." Which is what it actually meant.

The "US manufacturing is super productive" narrative is unfortunate, especially if policymakers were making decisions based on it. But it doesn't really call into question the data or methodology, just that people have misinterpreted it. But the people who are actual experts in this area are writing papers about that! This paper is from 2014[1], and she's been writing about this since 2010! With economists from the Federal Reserve system, no less.

edit: I guess my point is, the point that article makes isn't, "the game is rigged, inflation is made up, we should use shells for currency." The point it makes is, "don't just read the top-line number and then write an opinion article, make sure you read the breakdown first."

Also, assets do hedge inflation. Most of them, anyway. I never argued otherwise. Just that asset price increases are not the same thing as inflation.

[1] https://research.upjohn.org/up_workingpapers/209/

Re:How this Ends by jjoonathan on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @11:54PM (#26175999)
I'll grant you that it's entirely possible for this sequence of events to have happened spontaneously, without any malice, on the basis of misunderstandings. It could also have happened through the selective promotion of convenient metrics (which I'd argue does constitute rigging, just by a different party), or indeed through actual malice, though I tend to share your doubts on that front.

My invocation of the term "rigged" was not charitable but that's pretty far from saying it was actually incorrect. If I had to bet, I would bet on the middle possibility: metrics are built honestly but selectively promoted in accordance with political agendas in a manner that I would be comfortable to characterize as "rigged."

In any case, assigning blame is one thing and designing portfolios robust to this kind of mishap is another. Fortunately, the difficult parts of assigning blame are completely irrelevant to portfolio design. No matter who was responsible, the correct response is to avoid metrics that are easy to misunderstand (or rig!). Which brings us right back to favoring "assets hedge inflation" over "TIPS hedge inflation."

Re:How this Ends by Context_free on Thursday February 18, 2021 @05:57AM (#26178388)
> Also "rigged" is just conspiracy language. YOU CAN LITERALLY LOOK UP THE INDEX YOURSELF.

The idea that the government inflation indexes are rigged is conspiracy language. They are talking as if people from conservative think tanks and corporate boards are having the government fix inflation indexes to their way of thinking, or even retroactively setting inflation indexes to their way of thinking ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boskin_Commission ).

Re:How this Ends by oarsinsync on Thursday February 18, 2021 @04:59AM (#26177998)
> People aren't going to go bankrupt if their mortgages go back to 4-5% instead of 2-3%

I'd wager that there are more people that cannot afford the costs of servicing their mortgages doubling, than those that can.

It may not result in backruptcy, but it may result in them defaulting on their mortgages and literally losing the roof over their heads.

Re:How this Ends by pjc50 on Thursday February 18, 2021 @09:18AM (#26180031)
> The US inflation is too high, IMO

2% is too high? Really? What do you think it ought to be, allowing for a variance of 1-2% around the target?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/244983/projected-inflati...

Re:How this Ends by nostrademons on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @04:17PM (#26171905)
They probably will, but central government authority tends to collapse when hyperinflation begins. Venezuela (and the international community recognizing Venezuela) can't even agree on who the president is, and 60% of the Venezuelans who do work do so in the informal sector.
Re:How this Ends by tabs_masterrace on Thursday February 18, 2021 @06:08AM (#26178455)
Remember Crypto knows no borders, it's decentralized, peer to peer, and private keys aren't seizable by force. Central banks may outlaw it, and that will hurt, but it's not going to put an end to it. Especially should USD go into hyperinflation and all hell breaks lose.
Re:How this Ends by kinghajj on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @03:57PM (#26171666)
1. Central banks (at least, the US Fed) doesn't have the authority to declare crypto tokens illegal unilaterally.

2. EO 6102 made sense with the gold standard. It wasn't just an "FU" to gold hoarders, but a way to raise revenue to counter the depression. It's not clear to me that it would make sense for such a confiscation of crypto, especially if the legislature were to try option #1.

Re:How this Ends by tachyonbeam on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:17PM (#26175158)
> Central banks will outlaw it because they can't control it and devalue it

Except that, many rich investors and large corporations are putting money into crypto as we speak. Some of those large investors may include people who work in the government and at central banks. I tend to think that, these people will have a conflict of interest there. It might be in their own best personal interest to not ban crypto, and to leave that door open. In other words, it might soon be too late to ban crypto. The ball already started rolling down the hill.

Re:How this Ends by 1996 on Thursday February 18, 2021 @11:28AM (#26181838)
> In other words, it might soon be too late to ban crypto. The ball already started rolling down the hill. In other words, it might soon be too late to ban crypto. The ball already started rolling down the hill.

Great analysis. Give it another few years: then when most of the S&P companies will hold crypto, along with your richest supporters and voters, trying to ban it will become political suicide.

Re:How this Ends by tristanj on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @04:33PM (#26172089)
The market cap of crypto is not large enough to accommodate a several-dozen trillion dollar an outflow from stocks/bonds into it.

Crypto would have to rise massively in value for that to happen. That's one of the bull cases for crypto.

Re:How this Ends by tachyonbeam on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:14PM (#26175120)
> Crypto would have to rise massively in value for that to happen.

No, crypto would rise massively if that were to happen.

Re:How this Ends by PragmaticPulp on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @04:26PM (#26172015)
Virtually any investment, other than cash or a money market account.

Assets, stocks, real estate, all of the things that inflate with inflation. Crypto gets a lot of undue attention as a way to escape inflation, but investors have been investing in assets to losing buying power long before crypto came along.

Re:How this Ends by cft on Thursday February 18, 2021 @05:32AM (#26178213)
Or the dollar could just hyperinflate, which would end the market bubble. In which case the market bubble will never burst, as denominated in USD. Look at Venezuela's IBVC.
Re:How this Ends by adamcstephens on Thursday February 18, 2021 @11:53AM (#26182215)
Hyperinflation of the dollar will be nothing like Venezuela. The dollar is the reserve currency in many nations, and the primary currency for oil. If we hyperinflate the entire global economic system will be impacted.