News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by baybal2 on Monday February 15, 2021 @06:32PM (#26149107)
I worked in, and around OEM electronics since 2007.

I've seen many guys like Tim Cook, most worse off ones.

He squeezes suppliers, and know what he is doing.

Others squeeze suppliers, and don't know what they are doing.

On one of my first jobs, I've been witness to one such negotiations down to single cents, and microns of plastic for a few million units customized charger order.

The order was such a whopper for a small sourcing agency, that higher ups were willing to do just anything to not to spook the client.

Our guys quickly understood that the consultant guy doing negotiations on behalf of the client was a round idiot with a level of engineering knowledge of a first year dropout.

He kept insisting on completely bizarre design changes, and ridiculous cost cutting on design like using 2 cheaper through hole diodes in parallel instead of one a cent more expensive (did not believe my ears, the guy failed EE101 right here,) dispensing with NTC inrush limiters, removing safety caps (he did not know what they are for) and asked us to redo the mold 6! times in order to save some grams of plastic per run.

We managed to at least push back on safety critical parts, on a point that it will fail the certification.

Many years later I found out that the design of the first Kindle charger exactly matched the one we did in everything, but having an extra label.

And 5 years ago I learned that Kindles had multiple issues with melting chargers, and safety recalls.

9 out of 10 companies in the supply chain will just shoot themselves in the foot if they go on doing it like that.

Nobody will point how unreasonable your demands are if you are a giant multinational corporation, moreover so in China. If you do this, and don't know yourself if you are asking a for something stupid, who will know? No one will.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by baybal2 on Monday February 15, 2021 @07:18PM (#26149499)
I recalled that when in 2015, working for another sourcing shop working for likes of BestBuy/Futureshop/Target/London Drugs I was asked to tear down few chargers for them.

I found that diodes in parallel are surprisingly common around the industry.

This is such a thing which you are pretty much told on day 1 of any electronics course that it is impossible to not to know.

My only thinkable conclusion was that people keep doing it on purpose.

Other extreme cost cutting measures I saw were things like LEDs being used in double role as a diode. Wire wound around PCB used as inductor. Plug pegs being directly soldered to the PCB. Near paper thin plastic with holes from molding defects. Through hole components being soldered to each other. Flybacks without feedback. A 555 coaxed into use in a charger circuit.

You cannot come with any of that unknowingly, nor will you find any of that crap on the open market easily even in China.

It's pretty much an engineering equivalent of a "controlled flight into terrain," a direct result of suppliers being consciously directed into "stripping to the last cent" of the products by such unwitting buyers.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by andrewem on Monday February 15, 2021 @08:33PM (#26149942)
I had to look up why not to put diodes in parallel, and here’s an answer: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/6151/is-para...
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by taneq on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @10:26PM (#26162287)
Everyone's talking about negative temperature coefficients there. I thought it was more to do with diodes having a roughly constant voltage drop in the first place, meaning if you put two diodes with different voltage drops in parallel, the one with the lower drop would steal most or all of the current from the start?
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by raverbashing on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @12:48AM (#26151316)
The "diodes in parallel" thing sounds like cargo-culting and lack of knowledge beyond the basic stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised if reference circuits would have the double diode. Sad, but not surprised.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by cogman10 on Monday February 15, 2021 @07:29PM (#26149572)
This stuff is why USB-C PD scares me.

You've got these manufactures that are struggling to make basic AC->DC inverters and now you want to throw on a negotiation step? Yeah, not going to end well for these cost cutting idiots.

There are going to be destroyed devices and fires because some idiot decides "Just hard wire 20v and be done with it!"

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by spoonjim on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @02:03AM (#26151614)
I only use Apple chargers in my house, even for non Apple devices. I’m not saying Apple is the only quality charger, but I have no real methodology to assess the quality of any other brand.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by petercooper on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @05:36AM (#26152699)
FWIW, I've only used Anker chargers and USB power blocks for the past several years (including as my main MBP power sources) and have had absolutely zero problems. No methodology but their brand now stands for reliability in my mind, at least.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by rurp on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @11:53AM (#26155918)
I stumbled on this brand a few years ago and the couple items of theirs I've bought have held up extremely well, which is quite a rarity in this product space.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by zorked on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:40AM (#26152086)
There was one person who wrote deep reviews of things like chargers and battery packs (I think) on Amazon, checking for standards compliance and design safety. Does anyone remember who?
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by helsinkiandrew on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:34AM (#26152976)
Not on Amazon, but Ken Sherrif has dome some superb teardowns and analysis of Apple and non Apple chargers

http://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-...

http://www.righto.com/2016/03/counterfeit-macbook-charger-te...

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by x3iv130f on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:46AM (#26152120)
Benson Leung? He was famous for his reviews of USB-C products.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by throwaway4485we on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @02:07AM (#26151634)
>I have no real methodology to assess the quality of any other brand

But then how did you assess the quality of Apple's chargers? Can the same methodology not be applied then to other brands as well?

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by spoonjim on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @02:17AM (#26151670)
Their size and demonstrated product quality in other areas, plus this guy’s tear down: http://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-...
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:03AM (#26151880)
>Their size

How do you judge the quality and safety of charger purely by size? Is bigger safer, or is smaller safer? And if so, why don't other brands of the same size meet your quality standard based on that yardstick.

>and demonstrated product quality in other areas

Like their multi-year run of defective butterfly keyboards or hinge design that would cut through the MacBooks display cable over time causing the famous "stagelight effect" AKA "flexgate" where you'd being charged $600 to fix the $6 ribbon cable[1]?

[1]https://www.extremetech.com/computing/284236-some-apple-lapt...

Edit: Ah, I see the downvotes are already here. I guess criticism of Apple with proof is not tolerated on HN.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by thaumasiotes on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:12AM (#26151917)
> How do you judge the quality and safety of charger purely by size?

I'm pretty sure spoonjim was referring to the size of Apple, not the size of the chargers they make.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:15AM (#26151934)
Ok, but then there are other huge electronics brands like Samsung or Sony. Why don't they qualify as "safe" by this metric?
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by spoonjim on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:24AM (#26151985)
Samsung literally sold an exploding phone.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:29AM (#26152005)
Note 7 did explode. But that wasn't due to them cutting corners and they took it quickly off the market and it never happened to another model after they learned the design lesson where you need to give the battery cell space inside the phone to expand.

And how does one battery incident from one brand prove that Apple is the best at making chargers? We're talking about different things here.

"iPhones don't explode so Apple must be the best?"

Samsung Note 7 exploded before it was taken of the market, but any other brand or model did not, so unless you want to hang on the 2016 Samsung Note 7 incident as strawman argument, you have provided no valid arguments.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by spoonjim on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:45AM (#26152107)
An exploding phone is not a straw man argument. It’s an extremely valuable data point.

Who is more likely to commit murder, a randomly selected person or a randomly selected person from those with an existing murder conviction?

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:51AM (#26152150)
Sony, LG and many other devices didn't explode, so why aren't their chargers as safe as Apple's by the logic of your arguments so far?

How does one negative battery incident from Samsung prove that Apple makes the safest chargers of ALL the major electronics manufacturers?

Because so far you provided no proof or arguments to support this other than "murderer" metaphors and opinionated brand loyalty wrapped in whataboutism focused towards one particular incident, then move the goalpost from safety to quality instead and I showed you proof that quality does not equal safety or vice versa.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by spoonjim on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:36AM (#26152992)
I never said that Apple makes the absolute safest chargers. What I do know is that: 1) major companies like Samsung have made huge safety blunders 2) Apple has no such history at scale (ie entire product recalls) and analysts find its chargers are well engineered 3) there is no 3. I don’t have the inclination to ascertain the safety of Sony chargers, I’ll just get Apple ones and leave it at that.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by amelius on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:09AM (#26152858)
By that logic ...

Apple phones had antenna problems. You probably should not buy that brand anymore.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by spoonjim on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:37AM (#26152995)
It’s only “by that logic” if you equate bad reception to explosions.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:38AM (#26153309)
>It’s only “by that logic” if you equate bad reception to explosions.

If you keep moving the 'logic' goalposts to justify 'Apple is the best', then let me point out to you that bad reception IS just as bad, if not worse than batteries that could potentially explode.

If you've got an accident or an emergency in a more remote area and can't get a reception to communicate all the details to the emergency services in time, then you or others could very well die.

And, as opposed to batteries which due to chemistry reactions are more unpredictable and complex to lab-test for real world use, antenna design and reception quality can be easily tested in the lab before launching the product (RF engineer here), instead of blaming the users for "holding it wrong", so Apple gets no pardons from me on this life endangering fuckup.

Plus, the phones with battery issues that have actually exploded were not more than a handful, so the risk of you actually being affected was low but all were recalled and refunded vs iPhone 4's poor antenna design which would plague all the phones, all the time and instead of a recall you got a rubber bumper lol.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by vlovich123 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:16AM (#26151938)
Safety != product quality like the examples you gave. Charger blocks is the one spot Apple doesn’t seem to fuck around because of the outsized brand impact it would have (see Samsung’s exploding batteries).
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by nkoren on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @05:12AM (#26152588)
Anecdotal, but the only charger block I've ever had explode was from a MacBook. In its favour, it didn't fragment or catch fire. But as it shuffled off its mortal coil, the white plastic casing momentarily shone like the sun. Was pretty dramatic.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by tallanvor on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @04:30AM (#26152362)
Cables, on the other hand... I honestly can't remember seeing any other cable casings disintegrate like Apple's.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @04:34AM (#26152385)
Funny thing is Apple internally use Anker cables as they're much more resistent than their own.

It's well known that Apple prioritizes thinness, aesthetics and industrial design over function and reliability which is ironic given how stupid the magic mouse looks when it's charging.[1] How Jonny Ive green-lit that is beyond me.

[1]https://i.stack.imgur.com/WxNgu.jpg

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by andrewnicolalde on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:56AM (#26153100)
> Funny thing is Apple internally use Anker cables as they're much more resistent than their own.

Source? Sound interesting!

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by vlovich123 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @05:38PM (#26159667)
That does sound like an interesting claim & one that doesn't line up with my experience. When I worked there ~6 years ago that certainly wasn't the case. Maybe some groups did but I didn't observe that for the coworkers that sat around me.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by Judgmentality on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @02:10AM (#26151648)
Nobody else has Apple's resources for supply management, nor are they as large a target for getting sued - Apple has the ability and incentive to sell safe products.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:01AM (#26151866)
And Samsung, Panasonic, LG, SONY, Lenovo, Dell, HP and every other major electronics brand don't? How so?
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by Judgmentality on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @01:40PM (#26157214)
Apple is bigger and has better control of their supply chain. Similarly, those large companies would also likely build safe products, but it would be slightly less of a safe bet.

Overall most of those companies have excellent track records, but I bet everybody still remembers the exploding batteries from Samsung. Meanwhile, Sony actually has a pretty spotty track record (depending on where privacy and safety overlap for you), but most people have forgotten the root kit scandal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk...

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by baybal2 on Monday February 15, 2021 @07:36PM (#26149615)
Some do exactly that, but worse, horror stories of capacitive droppers being sold as iphone "cube" chargers seem to be 100% true.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by jwr on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @05:31AM (#26152677)
Non-isolated? That's grounds for reporting to the authorities and an immediate recall.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by formerly_proven on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @04:12PM (#26171850)
My camera has an USB-C port, which can be used to charge the (removable) battery. I don't think I have the guts to plug pretty much any USB-C charger into a 2000 € camera. I can already hear a little pop and the not-so-faint smell of burned electronics just thinking about doing it.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by kens on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:03AM (#26151876)
Dispensing with "unnecessary" components is called Muntzing, after Muntz, a TV salesman in the 1940s and 50s. He reduced costs by cutting out components from a TV until it stopped working, to find the minimum number of components required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntzing

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by alxlaz on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @04:37AM (#26152404)
Yeah, what parent is describing isn't muntzing, but the simple act of being dense in a setting where nobody can say it:

> He kept insisting on completely bizarre design changes, and ridiculous cost cutting on design like using 2 cheaper through hole diodes in parallel instead of one a cent more expensive (did not believe my ears, the guy failed EE101 right here,) dispensing with NTC inrush limiters, removing safety caps (he did not know what they are for) and asked us to redo the mold 6! times in order to save some grams of plastic per run.

I've seen this happening plenty of times, too. The higher-ups in many consumer (and even non-consumer!) companies are 100% clueless about these things, but they "know" that Chinese OEMs try to "rip you off" on designs, so they will demand their staff to squeeze them (and will promptly fire or replace anyone who dares tell them that a design is actually okay).

So every once in a while one of these smart guys will show up and make completely stupid demands. And explaining someone who doesn't understand basic electrical engineering concepts just why these demands are stupid is completely unproductive -- they don't just lack an understanding of the jargon, they lack an understanding of the most basic concepts. It's akin to trying to explain someone who doesn't know what a for loop is why you're using a hash table in a place where "a simple array would suffice".

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by JohnJamesRambo on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @01:04AM (#26151380)
If only the executives' salaries were scrutinized this closely. If someone is telling you about sacrificing safety to save a lone cent they are insane or hopelessly inept at their job. On almost any profit margin imaginable. Sell a million of these for $88 and you have saved only $10,000 on $88 million in sales. I don't know the Kindle profit margin but I'm going to guess it is quite a bit. One court case about the charger catching fire would eat that $10,000.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by vlovich123 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:14AM (#26151929)
Charger blocks are not $88 retail let alone BOM. 1 cent in BOM translates to 5-7c in MSRP if I recall correctly. The charger itself is probably a dollar or two so you’re looking at 2-5% of the total charger cost. Maybe not a talent thing on the part of the engineer (although could be contributory) so much as getting pressure from management to cut BOM across the board without management specifying any kind of threshold requirement.

Obviously still ridiculous when talking about charger safety but it’s important to remember we only see one side of the story here. Who knows what actually happened. I’ve worked with talented EE engineers on the client side complaining about how the contractor fucked up a board layout, wired things up incorrectly, or swapped out for cheaper “equivalent” parts that were out of spec in some incorrect way.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by baybal2 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:24AM (#26152931)
Chargers used to be way more expensive, proprietary ones in particular.

Branded siemens, and ericsson chargers for phones were $100+ circa 2001

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by vlovich123 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @05:36PM (#26159655)
That's true but you have to look at shipped volume & BOM cost (bill of materials), not MSRP from a charging block 20 years ago.

If this charging block was from the Kindle, you're looking at significantly higher volume & several years of advances that drive the cost down. Additionally, since everyone has shifted to stock USB chargers, all chargers have gotten drastically cheaper due to scaling. You can buy a wall USB (C or A) charger for a few $ MSRP which means it costs like 20-50 cents for the components that go into it.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by HappyDreamer on Monday February 15, 2021 @07:23PM (#26149528)
> [If you don't know yourself] if you are asking a for something stupid, who will know? No one will.

Makes me think I could intentionally ask for 1 or 2 stupid things, and see if the supplier tells me about it?

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by ido on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @12:09AM (#26151134)
Sounds like a variation of that rock band asking for a bowl of only brown m&m from the venue - at risk of voiding the contract if not provided - in the middle of their safety requirements document (if they didn't give them brown m&ms they know they didn't read the document throughout).
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by HappyDreamer on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @04:04AM (#26152211)
Yes! That rock band came to my mind, having read about them here at HN. But I couldn't remember the name (Van Halen, see below) or "brown m&m".

Now, because of your reply, I found this old HN post:

"Why Van Halen's tour contract had a "no brown M&M's" clause"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7754334

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by yourapostasy on Monday February 15, 2021 @08:49PM (#26150020)
I would like a named list of such buyers. Not their employers. The actual natural person names. So I know which clients to decline outright based upon the name of the buyer I'm working with, if I find out they are anywhere in the chain of procurement during negotiations. I have happily told buyers "no" on numerous occasions (there is an art to how to decline a customer's request, or to decline the customer themselves). Warren Buffett was right: knowing when to judiciously say "yes" is a key factor in managing your time.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by trustdragon on Monday February 15, 2021 @11:49PM (#26151053)
Eh, the game goes both ways tho. Factories love to feign innocence over defects and dispute penalties and commonly drop QC themselves and then baulk at redoing. Everybody is under pressure and there's angels and demons on both sides.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by numpad0 on Monday February 15, 2021 @10:23PM (#26150555)
> using 2 cheaper through hole diodes in parallel instead of one a cent more expensive

Just an idea, would it be possible to ask suppliers to jack up prices of THT power diodes so price follows forward current rating?

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by cwilkes on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @12:59AM (#26151357)
That’s an interesting idea. Instead of treating the supplier as an enemy bring them on to your side with an offer of “if this part fails less than 1% of the time we’ll pay you $X more per part”

Right now the only incentive they have is to give you a part that just barely won’t break for the absolute cheapest amount.

As a side benefit this would weed out the bad suppliers and the good ones will seek you out.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by baybal2 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:27AM (#26152946)
The guy came with his own prices, and said only buy passives from these companies.
Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by 908B64B197 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @11:26AM (#26155503)
> I've seen many guys like Tim Cook, most worse off ones. [...] He squeezes suppliers, and know what he is doing. [...] Others squeeze suppliers, and don't know what they are doing. [...] 9 out of 10 companies in the supply chain will just shoot themselves in the foot if they go on doing it like that.

Apple is probably the most cargo-culted company out there, after Google maybe. The number of "Steve Jobs wanabes" that I met who didn't have the billions nor the string of successful products behind them was staggering. I have no doubt Tim Cook is cargo-culted as much as Jobs was.

For anyone attempting this, keep in mind he built a team of world class experts around him.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by MaanuAir on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @02:32AM (#26151741)
Softwares suffers from a similar pattern. Think security issues.

Indeed, any kind of specialized skills suffer from the same problem, when you want to cut costs.

You can only get what you paid for.

(and I’m not saying paying for is a sufficient guarantee either...).

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by jacquesm on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @01:12AM (#26151408)
> like using 2 cheaper through hole diodes in parallel instead of one a cent more expensive

Well, technically, once the first one burned out he still had a spare ;)

You should have insisted on current limiting resistors in series :)

On another note, I can see a small business in selling matched pairs of diodes...

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by raverbashing on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @03:12AM (#26151915)
> On another note, I can see a small business in selling matched pairs of diodes...

Hah but that will make it cost 0.0005 more per unit, can't have that

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by yudlejoza on Monday February 15, 2021 @08:01PM (#26149767)
> On one of my first jobs, I've been witness to...

> ...years later I found out that the design of the first Kindle charger exactly matched...

So your employer's client was Amazon?

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by baybal2 on Monday February 15, 2021 @08:12PM (#26149839)
It was some inconspicuous sourcing company, may well been their front co, or maybe an actual sourcing agent working for them.

I don't believe they could've reused the design for some other client.

Re:How Tim Cook transformed Apple after Steve Jobs by sharkweek on Monday February 15, 2021 @07:16PM (#26149487)
He made you redo the molds 720 times? That’s insanity!