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Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by ChuckMcM on Monday January 25, 2021 @06:46PM (#25910549)
That sort of thing just amazes me. I get that it is "programmed" by DNA, and I understand programming quite well, but the series of chemical reactions that allow the cells to go from gamete to full thing still fills me with wonder.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by TaupeRanger on Monday January 25, 2021 @07:00PM (#25910656)
Increasingly it's becoming clear that DNA is only a small part of the picture. Cellular electrical dynamics are the forefront of morphogenesis research atm. Look at any recent high profile work out of Michael Levin's lab for an example.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by lurquer on Monday January 25, 2021 @10:30PM (#25912163)
During the initial boredom of Covid, I got very interested in Levin’s lab’s work and morphogenesis in general.

I made a program to implement some of my theories.

You’re welcome to try it. cycell2d.com

My pet theory — morphogenic fields — is described in their on one of the pages.

(Caveat: I’m neither a biologist nor a ‘real’ programmer. But, I was able to come up with a system to ‘grow’ certain animals and found it a fun way to spend the lockdown... almost as much fun as posting ‘Covid is a hoax’ comments on HackerNews... ahhh... those were the days.)

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by plancien on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @03:59AM (#25913803)
I'm very impressed, this made my day (my month ?). Too bad your site lacks some nice video demos on the front page. To other HN readers, look what I found in it's tutorial : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkvB4nb8PXw
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by dgellow on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @03:28AM (#25913658)
You should submit your website as its own on HN :)
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by ChuckMcM on Monday January 25, 2021 @07:46PM (#25911030)
Excellent reference. Bio papers with electricity in them, that is new for me. This one [1] is currently blowing my mind :-)

[1] https://www.the-scientist.com/features/how-groups-of-cells-c...

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by yalok on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @01:41AM (#25913222)
Totally. And kind of explains why some electrophoresis therapies may be working.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by jcims on Monday January 25, 2021 @07:33PM (#25910907)
Not sure if this is included in 'cellular electrical dynamics' but it's still amazing:

Neuronal Signaling and Sodium-Potassium Pump (from PDB-101)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKE8qK9UCrU

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by navan on Monday January 25, 2021 @10:38PM (#25912223)
This reminded me of a beautiful animation of "Mitochondria: the cell's powerhouse" which I recently watched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkYEYjintqU

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by koeng on Monday January 25, 2021 @11:07PM (#25912420)
Small part of the picture is an exaggeration, IMO. Cellular electrical dynamics matter, but we already know that surface physics matter (see: any mammalian lab with those flat little red bottles). Those dynamics (physical, electrical, chemical) are all derived from genes coded in DNA, and so long as you have the basic ribosomes / mitochondrial structures, you can re-instantiate an entire organism from just the DNA.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by kaba0 on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:51AM (#25927108)
DNA can’t bootstrap itself, so to say. So previous cell-functionality is required for everything, so you can only re-instantiate an entire organism if you have a denucleated pluripotent cell from an evolutionary close enough organism. (But correct me if I’m wrong)
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by TaupeRanger on Monday January 25, 2021 @11:18PM (#25912485)
DNA is certainly necessary and integral, but not at all sufficient for a full scientific understanding. Just like quantum mechanics is to rocket science. The heavy focus on genetics has hindered our understanding until very recently IMO.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by koeng on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @12:05AM (#25912767)
> hindered our understanding until very recently IMO

Any specific examples of how it hindered our understanding? Like maybe some grants or something? Because as a synthetic biologist, I've never seen a heavy emphasis on genetics take away from other causes of cellular dynamics - in fact, exactly the opposite, because genetic engineering has allowed tinkering of those cellular dynamics (for example, cardio tissue surface physics).

I don't know of any serious biologist that (even historically) disregarded the importance of other physical factors in favor of DNA, but I would love to know compelling counter examples.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by abandonliberty on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @02:22AM (#25913389)
Rather than "small part of the picture", you would get less disagreement with something like "beginning of the story."

I doubt many people would agree that computer hardware is a small part of the picture of modern computation.

They're the foundations that everything else is built on, and with.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by sriku on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @02:15AM (#25913358)
Link to talk - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwtOZ_WfMw0 - in which my mind was blown.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by bigtones on Monday January 25, 2021 @07:17PM (#25910779)
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by fktnktofk on Monday January 25, 2021 @07:31PM (#25910895)
Aren't those electrical field patterns still somehow encoded in the DNA?
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by TeMPOraL on Monday January 25, 2021 @07:47PM (#25911040)
They don't need to be.

I'm not sure what the conclusion of biologists is today, but I have a feeling a lot of important mechanisms aren't encoded in the DNA - or, at least, not anymore. The key insight here is that cell reproduction doesn't happen out of nothing, it's always an existing mechanism working on a new mechanism.

The seminal paper of Ken Thompson, "Reflections on Trusting Trust" (1984)[0], demonstrates how you can encode a backdoor in a compiler in such a way that the compiler embeds this backdoor in every program it builds, and embeds the backdoor-embedding machinery in every new compiler binary it builds. You can use it to build a "vanilla" compiler and make it backdoor-embedding, even though the source code doesn't have backdoor-embedding instructions in it.

I suspect similar things happen in biology - there is computationally relevant information embedded in the runtime state, that's not explicitly encoded in the DNA - but it carries on, because every new living cell is built by a previous living cell.

--

[0] - https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rdriley/487/papers/Thompson_1984_Ref...

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by Robotbeat on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:48PM (#25911456)
The issue is you’re going to get massive mutations building up in anything that doesn’t have the significant error correcting capability of DNA. So while the coding is not direct, it still has to somehow be in DNA so that the trait will be conserved over the generations. Shorter term changes could conceivably be stored in other molecular structures, though. (Think patterns of methylation in epigenetics or even the fringe idea of RNA memory.)

I would suspect really basic things like replication would be stored somehow in DNA (nuclear DNA, mitochondrial DNA, etc) as they must be highly conserved and mutation resistant in order for organisms to survive and reproduce.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by fktnktofk on Monday January 25, 2021 @07:52PM (#25911068)
I get your point and I agree, the DNA runs on hardware, which is why you can't take cat DNA and put it in a salamander cell and expect to get a cat. The resulting cell will just die since the hardware is not compatible with the DNA.

My point was that there is only so much information capacity in the cell if you exclude DNA, surely much less than needed to store electrical fields patterns for a whole embryo.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by FartyMcFarter on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:35PM (#25911342)
A cell has a lot of atoms, which may store a lot of information?
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by Robotbeat on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:49PM (#25911460)
But not error corrected like DNA.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by fktnktofk on Monday January 25, 2021 @09:09PM (#25911607)
You would see some sort of patterns there, and we don't see such a thing.

Like the difference between a silicon microchip and just a silicon block. Same stuff, bit the microchip one has intricate patterns.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by sitkack on Monday January 25, 2021 @11:47PM (#25912668)
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by intricatedetail on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:43PM (#25911413)
Can single atom store more information than a bit?
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by acomjean on Monday January 25, 2021 @10:13PM (#25912016)
DNA is made up of 4 main components (G,C,A and T). Very generally these encode instructions for making proteins.

Those blocks are very small, less than 20 Atoms.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenine

They’re working on using it for storage. (very slow read write times). Duplicating shouldn’t be a problem.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_digital_data_storage

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by morlockabove on Monday January 25, 2021 @09:17PM (#25911661)
Each electron present in one of the atom's orbitals is a bit, so yeah.

More realistically, the simplest atom- one proton, one electron- has 3 integer numbers associated with the state of the electron. You need more than a bit to describe the state of that system, so yeah.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by koeng on Monday January 25, 2021 @11:03PM (#25912388)
Computationally relevant information is sometimes embedded in runtime state (for example, yeast prions), but this is very rare. For small bacteria, you can switch out the entire genome with a new genome and have them continue living just fine. For all intents and purposes on an engineering level, everything is/can be encoded in DNA.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by oconnor663 on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:57PM (#25911530)
Speculating for fun based on what scientist people have told me at parties :) I think the idea is that DNA will directly and literally encode things like "the genes for proteins A and B tend to get activated together". But the next thing that happens is that protein B catalyzes some chain of chemical reactions that winds up activating a different gene for protein C. And then maybe protein C causes some sort of mechanical change in the cell, and the resulting mechanical stress triggers the production of protein D in adjacent cells. Mapping the mechanical relationships between cells in an animal with developing bones and muscles gets super complicated. So the question of "does the DNA encode the relationship between A and D" ends up depending on what you mean by "encode".
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by ethbr0 on Monday January 25, 2021 @07:42PM (#25910997)
Everything is deterministic if you're omniscient.

In our more limited experience, certain levels of complexity mean unpredictable outcomes.

As for why-not-DNA, I think about it in terms of "If there were some way that was faster able to adapt organisms than DNA changes, wouldn't most organisms accumulate substantial functionality via that pathway over time?"

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by sssilver on Monday January 25, 2021 @07:56PM (#25911102)
> Everything is deterministic if you're omniscient

Is this true, given https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle ?

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by frutiger on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:49PM (#25911458)
It is indeed not true, even omniscient beings can only produce probability distributions.

However it is not clear if quantum effects are relevant at a biomolecular scale. Some experts[1] suggest so but these ideas are considered fringe by the mainstream.

1. Sir Roger Penrose

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by Ixio on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @02:42AM (#25913472)
I'm of the mind that randomness is only an approximation of complexity, if you're omniscient then randomness doesn't exist and everything is deterministic.

However it seems to me the deterministic vs randomness debate is of the same order as the existence of god(s) : we will never be able to prove or disprove it and we aren't able to make useful predictions out of the information one way or the other so we might as well just agree to disagree and move on.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:18PM (#25911235)
DNA is basically digital information. Every rung on the helix ladder is either an AT or GC. Nature found the simplest say to store information in our chemistry set. Couldn't really store any field patterns though.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by Robotbeat on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:51PM (#25911469)
RNA is simpler but doesn’t error correct as much like DNA. It’s possible the first life forms had only RNA.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by abledon on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @01:02AM (#25913052)
have you read "Spark in the Machine"? Its an attempt to connect bioelectric science with ancient notions of 'chi', it goes over neural crest cells, organization centers for cell growth, and the electrosensitive pericardium cage near the heart.

They definitely didn't get 100% of it right, buts its quite uncanny how the ancient texts were so accurate at predicting certain things that are only becoming evident in morphogensis research.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by geijoenr on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @05:08AM (#25914162)
Indeed, there are always two parts to it: the software and the machine (the system of chemical structures and interactions inside the cell) , both equally important. We are at the point we can read the software but have a very limited idea on how the machine works.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by holoduke on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @05:36AM (#25914308)
Mm I would argue that we have a fair understanding on how the hardware works (chemical processes). But we have not clue how things are controlled and how things work together.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by p1mrx on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:00PM (#25911127)
It is "programmed" by the recursive feedback loop of evolution. If anything fails to work, the program terminates and something more reliable will take its place.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by umvi on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:08PM (#25911186)
Still nothing short of incredible. "the recursive feedback loop of evolution" abstracts a mind boggling amount of complexity. How did such a complex system start? I suppose if we knew, abiogenesis would be a solved problem.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by lovecg on Monday January 25, 2021 @11:03PM (#25912391)
There are some plausible theories, like RNA randomly crystallizing on a suitable surface. Sooner or later a self-copying one just happened to crystallize by chance, and there was no going back. Fun lecture series: https://youtu.be/PqPGOhXoprU
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by KineticLensman on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @10:41AM (#25917049)
> "the recursive feedback loop of evolution" abstracts a mind boggling amount of complexity. How did such a complex system start?

From something much simpler, and which has been iterating for approx 4 billion years.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by shellfishgene on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @04:44AM (#25914031)
You may like "The Vital Question" by Nick Lane, a book which presents one possible scenario in a quite readable way. Much of it is quite speculative of course, but you get a good idea what the basic principles are.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:30PM (#25911308)
People also underestimate how easy it is for life to get started by accident. Let's say you need a short segment of DNA to randomly pop into existence, capable of nothing but self-replication. What are the odds?

Here's my best analogy: If you take one mole of "random" Rubik's Cubes (the number of molecules in a glass of water), then search for 'Solved' ones you'll find 512 are magically solved, merely by the power of large numbers. The ways molecules can 'snap together' are similarly 'finite', just like a puzzle.

Now think how many glasses of water are on earth. A replicating molecule would have existed probably on the FIRST DAY earth had cooled enough to form water.

If we knew what the shortest sequence if DNA is that can replicate, we'd be able to mathematically state the probability of it existing in any 'random' length of DNA of that length as 1/(4^N) where N is DNA length (number of AT/GC pairs).

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by red75prime on Monday January 25, 2021 @09:03PM (#25911576)
> If we knew what the shortest sequence if DNA is that can replicate

Take it as 200 bases and you won't find another life in the observable universe. Avogadro's number is no match for exponential growth.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by koeng on Monday January 25, 2021 @10:55PM (#25912319)
First approximation - 50 base pairs of RNA? (Unless I am reading the supplement wrong)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3943892/

"The present study describes the directed evolution of replicating RNA enzymes that operate with an exponential growth rate of 0.14 min−1, corresponding to a doubling time of 5 min. Each parental enzyme can give rise to thousands of copies per hour, and each of these copies in turn can do the same, all the while transmitting molecular information across the generations."

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @12:59AM (#25913042)
Thanks for that link! That's amazing. I had no idea that work had ever been done.

According to my math 10 million moles of random sequence 50-base pair RNA segments would be required to ensure a correct 'Hit' on a replicator, assuming only one of those 50-long sequences can replicate. 4^50=10^30. 10^30/Avogadro=10^7. Assuming each enzyme is the size of a water molecule, that would be about one large swimming pool of water.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by koeng on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @09:40AM (#25916211)
https://nebiocalculator.neb.com/#!/ssrnaamt 10 million moles of RNA of length 50 turns out to be a large amount of RNA... but then again there was like a billion years for life to develop, all around the world.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by midasuni on Friday January 29, 2021 @03:18AM (#25955211)
All around every world in the universe. If life had emerged on planet 5 around star 1778465 in galaxy M33 instead of earth, then people on that planet would be having the same thoughts.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by shellfishgene on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @04:48AM (#25914059)
This makes the assumption that all the RNA molecules of 50 bp length are "clean" chains of nucleotides, without any chemical modifications that break the replication process. This is highly unlikely if the RNA is not produced by existing enzymes, but by more or less random chemical processes.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @11:37AM (#25917825)
It's purely the math probabilities I was getting at above. If you take the number of molecules in a large swimming pool, that is the same number of 50-long RNA molecules it would take to statistically cause at least one RNA to accidentally have any specific pattern of length 50.

In actual evolution this number of RNA molecules can be thought of as 'diluted' across the entire oceans, and not magically sitting in single pond.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by interfixus on Monday January 25, 2021 @11:23PM (#25912521)
> Let's say you need a short segment of DNA to randomly pop into existence

But do you? If elements A and B tend to form compound A-B, and compound A-B can attach a further set of A and B, forming B-A-B-A which under certain circumstances will split into A-B and A-B, you have basic reproduction, and perhaps the occasional presence of element C will expedite the process. Game of life. In my [very] layman's view of the world, given a billion years or two, some such infinitely simple process should be enough to get the ball rolling, as long as it can somehow produce an ever so slightly errorprone copy.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Monday January 25, 2021 @11:57PM (#25912718)
That's right. Once you have a replicating strand that's modular (linearly able to glue end-to-end) it can also recombine randomly with other completely different replicators to see if the "offspring" can replicate. We know for a fact major sections of DNA are shared among lots of different organisms, so we know this did happen a lot during evolution.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by yamrzou on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @02:55AM (#25913525)
Going from a short segment of DNA randomly popping into existence, capable of nothing but self-replication to living organisms, carrying a tremendous amount of intelligence, those are two very different things.

To make an analogy, what you describe would be only the electronic chips or the logic gates of a computer. There are a still the CPU, RAM, and the whole software stack from the OS that runs our bodies (and mind you, there is a different one for each species) to the yet unknown abstractions from which human general intelligence emerges.

I think people underestimate how difficult it is for all the above to get started by accident.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by shellfishgene on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @04:52AM (#25914075)
Once the process is started with simple life evolution just causes complexity as a rule. I think people who can't believe evolution made us from "nothing" have never really tried to understand the time frame in which it happend, which is a really long time.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @11:43AM (#25917922)
Humans can't conceive of large timescales nor large numbers. That's why I use my Rubik's Cube example. A single glass of water contains enough molecules that if they were each a random Rubik's cube then there's a mathematical certainty that 512 of them will be perfectly solved (per glass).

For molecules that are a linear chain of only 2 possible items in the chain, it becomes a 'brute force search' of a 'puzzle space' to find a chain that 'does something like computer code', and the earth has the computing power to solve that brute force problem in 30 seconds, not 30 million years.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by kaba0 on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @07:07AM (#25927220)
But this is more of a proof how insanely big a mole is, rather than the fundamental question. Also, Rubik’s cube possibilities is not that high. Try to create each permutation of a standard deck of cards (hint: there are less atoms in the universe than the number of permutations)
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @12:57PM (#25931424)
About the 'card deck' combinations: That's why we can be virtually certain there are no life forms in the universe that consist of a chain molecule (as it's version of "DNA") where there's more than a handful of different types of molecules along the chain.

Nature is statistically guaranteed to find the simplest patterns first and that's why our life is built on 'binary' (two kinds of 'cards' AT/GC). Life on all planets will likely use binary "information storage", especially because of it's modularity (i.e. it can be cut-n-pasted together in different patterns)

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by kaba0 on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @01:17PM (#25931702)
Life is not built on ‘binary’, there are 4 bits. All four nucleotides take part in the encoding (reading happens on one thread only).

And since life was presumably started with RNA, we are still talking about 4 base elems

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @02:14PM (#25932510)
It's perfectly legitimate to say life stores information using only two "types" of things (AT or GC) which can be oriented one way or another, which is a "binary choice of the type". I explain it that way because it reaches a wider audience (easier to visualize)

However there's always at least one stickler who wants to quibble that the orientation is also a "binary bit" of information. Congratulations, you're him today!!

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by kaba0 on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @02:20PM (#25932587)
I did think about that, that’s why I added the second paragraph, namely that what about RNAs? (Since presumably they precede the DNA world) They can self-bind (I don’t know the proper nomenclature in English), but by all means they have 4 bases.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @03:55PM (#25933793)
There's two kinds of base pairs, is identical to there's 4 kinds of bases.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by kaba0 on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @04:38PM (#25934343)
RNAs are a single chain. Your point makes no sense.

A code with a 4 letter alphabet would be 2 letter, if it happened to use a parity “bit” or other error correction info?

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:11PM (#25936772)
I never said RNA was built on two types of molecules. I said DNA was.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by w0de0 on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:35PM (#25911346)
Wouldn’t that imply that we’d find independent genesis of replicating molecules frequently even now?
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:45PM (#25911431)
If we found a sequence of DNA on some sample, and another identical sequence in that same sample, we still wouldn't know replication is happening.

However there may be slightly more requirements like the sequence has to be found in an oil film (bubble) up until it can form a skin/membrane, to protect itself, so even if it was happening on earth trillions of times every day no one would be there to discover it, and other life on the planet with a head start (bacteria, etc) would consume it before it made more 'progress' by evolution.

In the early planet there was nothing to "eat up" life as it was starting. Everything was on an equal footing.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by NickSharp on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @12:16AM (#25912834)
There's strong evidence that all life on this planet can trace back to a single strand of DNA, which evolved exactly once in our billions of years.

For example, if I understand this correctly, a random jumble of DNA as you describe would have a 50/50 chance of twisting to the right or twisting to the left. And yet all life on earth uses DNA that is "right handed" twisting to the right.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @01:25AM (#25913150)
The fact that life is right-hand twist DNA probably means left-hand was unsuccessful due to chemistry either in itself or in the environment, because an inversion of a molecule (chirality, twist, etc) means it will behave completely differently chemically. So left-hand twist can exist, but not necessarily in a way that can build life...even if it's able to initially replicate.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by koeng on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @12:07AM (#25912779)
No. Oxygen screws a lot of things up. Also, RNAses are now everywhere (organisms secrete them all the time, which is why RNAse away is a product), and since the original replicating molecules were likely RNA, pretty much the entire world is toxic now.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by kaba0 on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @07:03AM (#25927183)
And then calculate the odds that the given DNA (though the RNA hypothesis seems more plausible) is in sufficient conditions like inside a lipid-bilayer with sufficient nucleotides for a reproduction - which is more than likely thermodynamically not a stable state to be in, so add another factor with an e^(-x) expression.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @12:35PM (#25931109)
AT and GC are such simple molecules we can assume wherever we find 50 of them in one place (first replicator) you're going to have not just 50 but an abundance of them in that place too. And since that's what the replicator needs to replicate it's literally sitting in a bath of it's own "food" with no predators around, so it will grow like crazy and immediately. lipid-bilayer might be needed to find a pattern for "cells" to form, sure, agreed. And in all this 'base' counting math the statistics is the same regardless of whether it's DNA or RNA.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by kaba0 on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @02:25PM (#25932676)
Thermodynamics would beg to differ about your first sentence. Also, I’m not trying to disprove your point, since life did emerge in some way and I’m not fond of unscientific explanations. But it is naiv to assume that life is a definite outcome given an Earth-like situation with a primordial soup.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @03:46PM (#25933699)
> Thermodynamics would beg to differ

It's already experimentally proven you can mix up N, H, and O and it spontaneously forms RNA. We've even found entire RNA and sugars on meteorites. It's not rare in nature, it's abundant and self-emergent from the raw atoms themselves.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by kaba0 on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @04:52PM (#25934510)
I replied in terms of your first sentence. Molecules doesn’t concentrate spontaneously without active energy expenditure from someone (putting salt in a pot will have salt uniformly distributed everywhere).

Now, either there were some naturally formed impermeable areas with an abundance of base material (yet again, I’m not saying life emerged because the UFOs created it), or we are talking about many orders of magnitude less statistical chances. I am willing to believe that many, not individually extraordinary thing had to happen at the same time, that made life possible - but that pretty much makes their combined presence extraordinary, which is my claim.

(Some form of underwater volcanic caves or whatever could sound like a possibility, especially because last I checked, starting sticked to a surface with certain catalytic activities is a plausible theory. Especially due to the reduced statistical chances due to a 2D surface instead of a 3D one! What I have a bit of trouble seeing, is how did organic materials form - I am aware of the famous experiment with lightning bolts that created ammonia and some other chemicals, but it would only slowly increase their uniform distribution in the oceans. Perhaps some chemical reaction with gases that made them accumulate? )

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by WClayFerguson on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:00PM (#25936676)
AT and GC never concentrate spontaneously. Brownian motion makes them 'find' each other and immediately snap together like tinker toys when they find a partner that fits. That's why you need warm temperatures, and it's why all chemical reaction rates are proportional to temperature. Even in a solution with 0.00001PPM reagents, reactions take place rapidly when warm.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by wombatmobile on Monday January 25, 2021 @09:13PM (#25911633)
> People also underestimate how easy it is for life to get started by accident.

That's well known. It is the key driver for the global contraceptives market, which generated revenue of $28,175 million in 2015 and is estimated to reach $43,812 million by 2022.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by abandonliberty on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @02:36AM (#25913454)
Over 15% of medically confirmed pregnancies end in miscarriage. Typically in a response to a gross chromosomal abnormality.

We are familiar with downs syndrome, 3 rather than the intended 2 copies of chromosome 21, only because it's comparatively viable.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by cmpb on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @10:32AM (#25916919)
Good point. That seems like a "soft-shutdown" compared to the "hard-shutdown" that I interpreted from the parent post: dying due to being unfit in the environment.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by brbrodude on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:21PM (#25911251)
The trippy detail for me is that the runtime is time and space, thats what its frictioned against, even matter and its states are determined by it. Evolution sure is a word.. Not sure it captures it tho
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by postalrat on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:38PM (#25911370)
Trying to figure out how biology works probably isn't much different than it would be to figure out how an alien spacecraft works.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by lm28469 on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @07:11AM (#25914898)
> I understand programming quite well

Software programming or biological programming ?

These things have the same names but they're not really comparable

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by ChuckMcM on Tuesday January 26, 2021 @03:52PM (#25920902)
Well I think of it as the state machines and cellular automata. And yes, how cellular state machines work is clearly different than how a computer state machines work, they have a surprising (to me) lot in common. If you are interested in these comparisons I can recommend two books, one is Feynman's "Lectures on Computation" which discuss computation (and programming) in a very generalized way, and Nick Lane's "The Vital Question" which looks at the origins of life and discusses the evolution of multicellular organisms in a very approachable way.