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Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by TeMPOraL on Monday January 25, 2021 @07:47PM (#25911040)
They don't need to be.

I'm not sure what the conclusion of biologists is today, but I have a feeling a lot of important mechanisms aren't encoded in the DNA - or, at least, not anymore. The key insight here is that cell reproduction doesn't happen out of nothing, it's always an existing mechanism working on a new mechanism.

The seminal paper of Ken Thompson, "Reflections on Trusting Trust" (1984)[0], demonstrates how you can encode a backdoor in a compiler in such a way that the compiler embeds this backdoor in every program it builds, and embeds the backdoor-embedding machinery in every new compiler binary it builds. You can use it to build a "vanilla" compiler and make it backdoor-embedding, even though the source code doesn't have backdoor-embedding instructions in it.

I suspect similar things happen in biology - there is computationally relevant information embedded in the runtime state, that's not explicitly encoded in the DNA - but it carries on, because every new living cell is built by a previous living cell.

--

[0] - https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rdriley/487/papers/Thompson_1984_Ref...

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by Robotbeat on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:48PM (#25911456)
The issue is you’re going to get massive mutations building up in anything that doesn’t have the significant error correcting capability of DNA. So while the coding is not direct, it still has to somehow be in DNA so that the trait will be conserved over the generations. Shorter term changes could conceivably be stored in other molecular structures, though. (Think patterns of methylation in epigenetics or even the fringe idea of RNA memory.)

I would suspect really basic things like replication would be stored somehow in DNA (nuclear DNA, mitochondrial DNA, etc) as they must be highly conserved and mutation resistant in order for organisms to survive and reproduce.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by fktnktofk on Monday January 25, 2021 @07:52PM (#25911068)
I get your point and I agree, the DNA runs on hardware, which is why you can't take cat DNA and put it in a salamander cell and expect to get a cat. The resulting cell will just die since the hardware is not compatible with the DNA.

My point was that there is only so much information capacity in the cell if you exclude DNA, surely much less than needed to store electrical fields patterns for a whole embryo.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by FartyMcFarter on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:35PM (#25911342)
A cell has a lot of atoms, which may store a lot of information?
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by Robotbeat on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:49PM (#25911460)
But not error corrected like DNA.
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by fktnktofk on Monday January 25, 2021 @09:09PM (#25911607)
You would see some sort of patterns there, and we don't see such a thing.

Like the difference between a silicon microchip and just a silicon block. Same stuff, bit the microchip one has intricate patterns.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by sitkack on Monday January 25, 2021 @11:47PM (#25912668)
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by intricatedetail on Monday January 25, 2021 @08:43PM (#25911413)
Can single atom store more information than a bit?
Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by acomjean on Monday January 25, 2021 @10:13PM (#25912016)
DNA is made up of 4 main components (G,C,A and T). Very generally these encode instructions for making proteins.

Those blocks are very small, less than 20 Atoms.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenine

They’re working on using it for storage. (very slow read write times). Duplicating shouldn’t be a problem.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_digital_data_storage

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by morlockabove on Monday January 25, 2021 @09:17PM (#25911661)
Each electron present in one of the atom's orbitals is a bit, so yeah.

More realistically, the simplest atom- one proton, one electron- has 3 integer numbers associated with the state of the electron. You need more than a bit to describe the state of that system, so yeah.

Re:Time-lapse of a single cell transforming into a salamande... by koeng on Monday January 25, 2021 @11:03PM (#25912388)
Computationally relevant information is sometimes embedded in runtime state (for example, yeast prions), but this is very rare. For small bacteria, you can switch out the entire genome with a new genome and have them continue living just fine. For all intents and purposes on an engineering level, everything is/can be encoded in DNA.