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Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by mc32 on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:08AM (#25729835)
Part of the problem with electronics is often a brand new unit costs less than replacing a faulty part on an old unit due to miniaturization and having everything on chip combined with economics of scale.

Still it’s a worthwhile pursuit. At some point pocket PCs/phones will be good enough, just as for many a 2014 laptop is still good enough.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by mywacaday on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:40AM (#25730360)
Youtube on my mother in laws Samsung tablet from 2013 has stopped working. It has stopped because it has android 4 and you can't update chrome past V42 and youtube won't load without a later version of chrome. I installed firefox and she has access to youtube through the web for now. The tablet is in immaculate condition physically. if it played youtube in 2013 it should be able to play it now, it cost over €500 at the time. How is this anything else except planned obsolescence. I know there will be comments about security etc but she only needs it for youtube and solitaire.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by ako on Monday January 11, 2021 @11:36AM (#25731328)
That is not planned obsolence. Nobody said this tablet should stop working by 2021. It's simply the result of limiting cost of software development. If you are creating a new version of android, you cant affort to support all devices. If you create a new version of chrome, you cant affort to support all version of android. If you create a new version of youtube, you cant afford to support all versions of chrome, etc, etc.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by delecti on Monday January 11, 2021 @12:39PM (#25732538)
Agreed. I think there needs to be a better term for the reality of the situation, something like "negligent obsolescence". There's no technological limitation preventing Samsung from updating those for a decade or more, they just don't care. A battery degrading over time isn't planned obsolescence, and while not being able to easily replace the battery might be, more likely it's that they just don't bother to put in the slightly extra effort to make the batteries easier to replace. Right to Repair mandates would be a good start in ensuring manufacturers are properly motivated.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by mc32 on Monday January 11, 2021 @11:37AM (#25731359)
While true, Microsoft used to be able to do a much better job of it (and still does, compared to Android).
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by burntoutfire on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @02:10PM (#25751841)
> If you create a new version of chrome, you cant affort to support all version of android. If you create a new version of youtube, you cant afford to support all versions of chrome, etc, etc.

Google is making billions per year, they can certainly afford to support all versions of Android. They just choose to pocket the money and screw their customers instead.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by mywacaday on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @11:44AM (#25764489)
Correction I installed Opera.

Anyone know why opera can run on android 4 and the latest Chrome can't/wont?

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by asddubs on Monday January 11, 2021 @06:45PM (#25739902)
you should at least have a way to install another OS on it then. So IMO driver blobs are a real part of the problem here
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by codethief on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:51AM (#25730521)
I sympathize with your (mother-in-law's) situation! I, too, own a Samsung tablet from that period.

Have you checked whether you could install LineageOS or some other custom ROM on the tablet? That way, you might be able to extend its lifetime by another couple years.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by steerablesafe on Monday January 11, 2021 @11:04AM (#25730740)
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by harrygeez on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:50AM (#25730506)
There's a good chance you can find a compatible version of LineageOS. That should extend its lifespan considerably
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by gruez on Monday January 11, 2021 @01:08PM (#25733080)
If you go through the lineageos device list there's literally no samsung tablets from 2013 that's currently supported. If you count the devices that had builds but aren't currently supported you get more devices, but I suspect your odds are still not good considering there's several unsupported models for every supported model.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by alxlaz on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:26AM (#25730143)
> Part of the problem with electronics is often a brand new unit costs less than replacing a faulty part on an old unit due to miniaturization and having everything on chip combined with economics of scale.

That's simply because "make it easy to replace" has not been a design constraint in a very long time -- in fact, making things hard to replace or fix has been a design constraint that product management has enforced more or less explicitly in lots of places. "Miniaturisation" has been a reality of electronics design since at least the 1950s -- not being able to fix things is a more recent phenomenon.

Even if that weren't the case, IC manufacturing reliability has come a long enough way that, in fact, "everything on-chip" doesn't account for all that many broken units. Virtually all of the phones I've repaired in the last 10 years or so had broken volume buttons, cracked displays and so on. The phone I currently use had a blown battery management controller, which was trivial to replace.

"Everything is small now" is just one of the excuses that companies bring to the table. It is a legitimate reason in that, yes, the fact that everything is small amplifies the effect of the fact that, at best, making things easy to repair hasn't been a design goal. That doesn't mean the design can't be improved.

Edit: also, a lot of the high repair cost comes from constraints that derive directly from the fact that repairing things is all sorts of faux pas. E.g. replacement screens often have to be shipped, in small batches, halfway across the world, which isn't exactly easy or cheap if you're a small repair shop. If repairing things were easier and carried less of a stigma, replacement parts would be cheaper, repairing things would take less time and so on.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by mc32 on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:30AM (#25730183)
I agree with you; however making things discreet and replaceable will increase costs significantly and slow progress —however, if we consider phones to have reached “good enough” status then that makes sense. Double the price but make it easy to repair or replace components.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by alxlaz on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:35AM (#25730264)
> making things discreet and replaceable will increase costs significantly and slow progress

Nobody is asking to split the current, high pin-density SoC into eighty chips with DIP sockets, they're mostly asking for things like:

* Publishing service manuals and schematics

* Making replacement parts available (replacing the SoC isn't that big a deal, the problem is that you often can't get that SoC anywhere)

* Not selling things with an EULA that explicitly prohibits "unauthorized" repairs

"Making things discreet" is pretty much a red herring. Sure, making everything discreet would result in bulkier, pricier, and probably worse phones, but you can massively improve the general public's access to repairs without doing that.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by Slikey on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:18AM (#25730021)
> Part of the problem with electronics is often a brand new unit costs less than replacing a faulty part

This is only partially true. The true cost is hidden and at least by average people like me immeasurable. We are putting a lot of cost out of sight if you consider the environmental impact of e-waste.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by mc32 on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:22AM (#25730069)
Good point. What is a good estimate for e-waste costs? I don’t think it’s more than 10% of a phone’s unsubsidized costs.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by onli on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:09AM (#25729858)
They already are. Phones from 2016 for example feel completely usable today. That goes for the repairable ones at least, like the LG G5, but even the older LG G3 holds up well.

If all modern phones were as repairable as those we could eliminate so much garbage!

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by stronglikedan on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:27AM (#25730155)
My old phones are often usable, which is why I only upgrade every three years or so. However, when I do upgrade after waiting so long, it's like I've traveled through time with the improvements.

It seems that most people want more than just usable. They may not want to pay more for a device up front, knowing they will be missing out on the latest technology down the road.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by onli on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:33AM (#25730234)
They do not need to pay more. The equation that repairable means more expensive for the customer is propaganda. It assumes that every cent companies save by making devices worse lowers the price. That's trickle down economics and has never been true.

People can still buy new stuff earlier if they want. But their old stuff can be reused by those that do not need, want or can afford the new devices. There are many categories of devices where that's a good option for many, not only phones. Besides, it's always good to have the option to repair that thing you have when it breaks even if initially you did not think you would need that. You might have grown to like it.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by macNchz on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:50AM (#25730504)
I've had an iPhone since 2009 and I'm definitely familiar with the "time traveling" effect of upgrading phones, but I think it has diminished a lot as the technology has matured.

I've been using a 6S since 2015 (this thread caught my interest because it's now somewhat of a Ship of Theseus as I've replaced so many parts over the years), but the 11 Pro I bought last year was the first time a multi-year-gap upgrade felt rather incremental, especially for $1100. I returned it and expect to continue to use and repair the 6S until they drop iOS support for it.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by ganafagol on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:42AM (#25730376)
Considering 3 years a long time to replace a device is part of the problem.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by fuzxi on Monday January 11, 2021 @07:30PM (#25740521)
A large part of that is simply that smartphones entered the market very recently and started out computationally weak compared to existing computers - the first iphone was released less than 14 years ago and had a CPU running at 412MHz!

Smartphones have largely caught up to traditional computers in terms of the time it takes for upgrade-worthy advancements in hardware. I expect we'll see smartphone upgrade cycles continue to lengthen until they mirror desktop/laptop upgrade cycles.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by mc32 on Monday January 11, 2021 @11:36AM (#25731330)
Agreed but that part of a larger problem such as fast fashion and throwaway trinkets for the home.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by sergeykish on Monday January 11, 2021 @12:50PM (#25732740)
It is quite easy — invest in the most limiting factor, for example:

* OnePlus 3, released in June 2016, 6 GB RAM.

vs

* iPhone 7, released in September 2016, 2 GB RAM.

* iPhone 12 Pro Max, released in October 2020, 6 GB RAM.

From my perspective smartphones have not changed much.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by na85 on Monday January 11, 2021 @02:43PM (#25735186)
The processors have changed significantly. I had a OnePlus 3T which I really liked, and recently pulled it out of a box because my daily driver phone broke. The 3T struggled to load modern, bloated apps like Google Maps. The device would chug at most tasks more intensive than scrolling a webpage (and sometimes even then... what a sad state the web is in these days)

By contrast the processor in my work phone (an Iphone) is faster than my laptop.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by syshum on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:17AM (#25729997)
My phone today is completely usable but the carrier has decided to stop issuing updates to the phone....

This is the worst kind of planned obsolesces

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by onli on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:21AM (#25730055)
Right. Repairable hardware is just the one side, security updates needs to be available as well. We need mandated open sourcing of device software (including firmware and drivers + unlocking of the bootloader) after the support timerange, or at the very least alternatively the obligation to continue security updates for decades.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by martinald on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:31AM (#25730203)
Who is actually going to update this even if it is open source though? There are so many drivers and firmware in a smartphone, nevermind the tens of thousands of models of smartphones out there. It would require an army of people to patch, test and distribute everything. That's even if you can figure out all this code.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by Nextgrid on Monday January 11, 2021 @11:16AM (#25730956)
I don't think this should be a consideration.

I agree that the manufacturer or carrier doesn't owe you updates indefinitely, but they definitely should give you all the resources you need to develop these updates yourself if you wanted to.

The landscape can change. Maybe there's going to be a huge open-source project that will make these updates. Maybe someone will figure out a way to automatically handle a large number of hardware configurations at scale (a powerful enough hardware abstraction layer should be able to deal with it). Maybe someone will make a business out of it, providing security updates at a reasonable cost. Either way, there shouldn't be any artificial hurdles against the customer developing and running their own firmware on hardware they paid money for.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by reegnz on Monday January 11, 2021 @11:16AM (#25730959)
It's not about 'who's going to do it' but about 'if I want to do it, I can'.

I would really like to hack on a tablet I have that's 5 years old, but I can't because the firmware and drivers are both closed source.

I think when I buy a device, I should get the source code to it once the manufacturer decides it's not worth it for them to continue patching the software for the device I've bought.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by onli on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:35AM (#25730277)
We see that happening all the times with devices that are open and popular enough, as much as is possible now. Have a look at the xda forum to see how it is done today.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by fsflover on Monday January 11, 2021 @11:36AM (#25731338)
Have a look at Pinephone. It has no official developers, but the community created >17 operating systems for it with constant updates.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by harrierpigeon on Monday January 11, 2021 @11:54AM (#25731672)
OTOH, you can wind up with stuff like installing an OS that requires more than the device has to offer- like installing the most recent version of Ubuntu Desktop on a Intel Core2 Duo isn't going to go well, nor did installing iOS 7 on iPhone 4's- which I remember eagerly installing without realizing the major slowdown all the new features added that I couldn't undo.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by onli on Monday January 11, 2021 @12:59PM (#25732895)
Linux usually works perfectly fine with old hardware, a Intel Core2 Duo should be completely enough. That's even 64 bit hardware. Worst case you have to swap out Gnome with something more minimal, but that's unlikely.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by fuzxi on Monday January 11, 2021 @08:33PM (#25741127)
I'm currently running Manjaro with i3wm on a laptop with a core 2 duo. It came with a couple of simple conky widgets enabled by default and those probably took 5-10 seconds to load. Just boxes, one with static text and the other with load statistics. Resizing windows is a little painful, as is opening them.

I3 runs reasonably well, but Gnome would probably be too heavy to make for an enjoyable experience.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by RHSeeger on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:53AM (#25730559)
Creating those updates costs money. At what point is the cost no longer worth it? It is not realistic for companies to support every phone forever; I think that's something we can all agree on.

Would you be willing to pay whatever your share is of how much generating the update would cost, in order to get it? With a clear indicator when you buy the phone that you automatically get a subscription to 3 years worth of security updates; past that, you pay whatever amount is needed to keep it up to date.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by acka on Monday January 11, 2021 @11:22AM (#25731077)
In my opinion, manufacturers who cannot be bothered to provide updates to their software should not be allowed to claim intellectual property rights on the hardware. When support ends, drivers and documentation should be made open source, enforceable by law if need be.
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by brendoelfrendo on Monday January 11, 2021 @11:29AM (#25731205)
I think that the problem is central to how phones are developed and constructed. Dell doesn't determine how long my XPS 13 gets updated; they provided the hardware, and I can put any software I want on it. It can keep running a secure, up-to-date OS as long as I want it to, until the hardware truly can't keep up (which, based on computer lifetimes these days, is a long time).

Conceptually, I dislike that mobile development hasn't followed a similar path. Samsung should not dictate how many updates my phone gets and for how many years. Practically, I realize that this is a consequence of how we've built SOCs and mobile hardware and there's no incentive for companies to change. That doesn't make it less problematic.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by syshum on Monday January 11, 2021 @12:09PM (#25731937)
In my case the Manufacturer (LG) already did the updates, the phone was offered on 2 of 3 carriers, of the 2 one of those carriers are still offering updates for it, but because it was a less popular model on the 2nd carrier it is not longer getting updates
Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by mc32 on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:18AM (#25730011)
I tend to agree if we consider current use cases. Issue comes when we add new use cases which require more processing power or new components.

Also, we’ll have to figure out how to manage with a sort of stagnation.

Essentially this entails curbing change. Curbing change means slowing progress (initially in this niche), but if we extend this into other areas it can mean significant stagnation because since things are good enough we don’t need to improve and progress (ie. we’re at equilibrium )

We'll have to grow comfortable with that outlook.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by onli on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:29AM (#25730174)
Sometimes it's more a question of software. On older phones badly made sites like the new reddit for example were unuseable in all browsers - until the new Firefox came along.

But sure. Repairability is one thing, it just means that devices can continue the things they were made for. For new workloads they would need upgradeability, which is a completely different beast.

I don't think having repairability will slow things at all. It will simply prune some behaviors corporations engage in that destroy the planet, like glueing in batteries. Stopping such practices will not even make new devices more expensive - we have old designs that did it right. Falling back to them and innovating there could even save money.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by flukus on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:50PM (#25742036)
> Phones from 2016 for example feel completely usable today.

The problem is that this has happened despite my usage not changing.

Re:Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair by Ericson2314 on Monday January 11, 2021 @11:49AM (#25731585)
If we properly accounted for environmental externalities, and frankly, the rat race of labor arbitrage (is a good use of people's time in the 2nd world to work 9 days a week to crank out replacements for this shit?), I think we would get there faster.

Though yes, thank goodness the end of Moore's law is here to help.