News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by Zelphyr on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @08:45PM (#25666179)
It has been said that companies that build rely too heavily on the public, free API’s of another service are doomed when that service decides to monetize those API’s. See, for example, API users of Google Maps.

I think we are now at the point where this applies to individuals. If a person or group of people rely too heavily on a single free service then they’re going to feel pain when that service finally decides to monetize.

There are no free lunches. All these “free” products out there that seem great have Venture Capital investors waiting until the day that the service reaches a critical mass and they can flip the cash-generating switch.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by Normal_gaussian on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @08:56PM (#25666270)
Its worth remembering that whatsapp used to have an annual charge, and it grew successfully with that. The charge was only removed once FB bought them.

Personally I don't know anyone that started using whatsapp after the fb purchase, so they were all happy to pay for their use of a messaging app.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by tinyhouse on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:48PM (#25666681)
That's not entirely true. They did charge something tiny to use the app (I think it was ~$2/year) but in many countries (outside the US where they were much more popular) they didn't block users who didn't pay. If you didn't want to see annoying reminders you would just pay and get rid of it. Many people I know never paid.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by grishka on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:18PM (#25667234)
For me it simply displayed "the next year of service is on us" once a year, every year. Paying for WhatsApp was something of an urban legend.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by idlecool on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:34PM (#25667306)
i paid for whatsapp back in 2012. it was a paid app on the app store. it wasn't much - $1, and everyone had to pay for it to download. later they made it a free app. i am more than happy to pay for a messaging app for myself and my close family, and i dont like the idea of sharing the data with fb. there needs to be a paid alternative.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by tonyztan on Thursday January 07, 2021 @12:25AM (#25667579)
> there needs to be a paid alternative.

Just use Signal. It's free, open source, and end-to-end encrypted.

https://signal.org/

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by CDSlice on Thursday January 07, 2021 @12:36AM (#25667629)
On the other hand, you will have an absolute pain trying to transfer messages to another device. To move from one android device to another you have to manually make a database backup (hope you didn’t lose your old phone!) and copy it over to a new phone. Moving from an iPhone to another iPhone is slightly better since you just have to have both iPhones and then the app can sync the data across. However if you try to move from Android to iOS or vice versa, you are absolutely screwed. There is no way to get your data transferred to your new device and there is no way to get your data out of signal, even the database backup the Android app has doesn’t include everything. Say what you want about WhatsApp but at least thanks to GDPR my data isn’t permanently trapped in one app forever with no way to get it out.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by tonyztan on Thursday January 07, 2021 @02:52AM (#25668427)
That's a good point. I haven't really thought about transferring messages since I use Disappearing Messages [1] for almost all conversations.

[1] https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007320771-Se...

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by grishka on Thursday January 07, 2021 @12:06AM (#25667484)
I now remember it being a paid download on iOS but free on Android, and all my smartphones since the dawn of the duopoly ran Android, so...
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by piyush_soni on Thursday January 07, 2021 @12:12AM (#25667512)
I had paid for at least one year (just $1), may be two (don't remember exactly). I would be glad to pay more, but Facebook played a big game and now we're all stuck with it because at least in India WhatsApp is almost a necessity.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by grishka on Thursday January 07, 2021 @02:29AM (#25668250)
Thankfully in Russia it is not. Some people prefer it for some reason but there's no hard requirement to have it to be a part of society. I haven't even bothered to set it up on my new phone I bought a month ago and there was no discomfort resulting from that. Though I do still need to download my data and delete my account so people won't even try messaging me there.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by piyush_soni on Thursday January 07, 2021 @04:13AM (#25668942)
Great for you! Here everyone (including the carpenter, plumber, bank/finance people and more) almost expects you to have whatsapp. Even some of the biggest businesses are on Whatsapp offering product/order updates, customer service and more. Not to mention every friend of yours would constantly pester you to be on it. I guess one could live without it, but it will be pretty uncomfortable and you'll lose touch with almost all of your friends and relatives.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by grishka on Thursday January 07, 2021 @05:07AM (#25669309)
Here 99% of my messaging with real people is covered by VKontakte and Telegram. I can't even fathom using WhatsApp for any kind of serious communication because of how inconvenient and unreliable it is. "Can't download media, please ask them to send again", my ass. What kind of engineering does even lead to this?! And the fact that I have to use my phone while sitting in front of a computer is a non-starter. The web version still uses the phone and occasionally wipes itself completely so you have to set it up again.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by letitbeirie on Thursday January 07, 2021 @12:46AM (#25667677)
The modern day WinRAR
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by jbverschoor on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:43PM (#25667357)
I paid.. almost nobody had WhatsApp
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by minusSeven on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:59PM (#25667445)
They didn't monetize it because in countries like India if you were to monetize it most users would stop using the app. This I guess is the alternative. Thing is there is no reason to believe others apps won't do the same in the future.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by amingilani on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:17PM (#25667224)
I can confirm this. No one in my circles ever paid and the banner never went away.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by Macha on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:45PM (#25666659)
I have to say that prior to being free of charge, it wasn't nearly so popular in most markets. Viber was king in my country and individuals still used SMS outside a "messaging of last resort" use case it has become.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by throwaway77_a on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:04PM (#25666330)
Did they have that ever on iOS? I’ve never seen it.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by rpcwork on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:32PM (#25666571)
Been an iPhone prisoner/beaten-wife/lover since 2010. Whatsapp charged $1 per year for update. Happy to pay that in exchange for knowing that my familyand network information and more importantly info about my kids won’t be sold for pieces million times a minute on the digital ad auction markets.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by perryizgr8 on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:09PM (#25666380)
IIRC they charged for the app download on ios, and on android the initial download was free, but with a promise that they would start charging an annual fee soon. But that never happened. They kept extending the deadline and then got bought out.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by Tijdreiziger on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:08PM (#25666372)
On iOS there was a one-time purchase fee. I recall there theoretically also being an annual charge, but IME this was always waived.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by filmgirlcw on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @10:12PM (#25666817)
This is what I remember, tho I guess it’s possible they changed the terms for new users. But I bought it in late 2009, IIRC and it was either $0.99 or $2.99.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by roflchoppa3 on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:07PM (#25666364)
yes they did
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by wolco2 on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @10:47PM (#25667058)
Beware building against a paid api as the rates/rules will change under you and you will be more stuck compared to a public api.

I wouldn't trust any api you don't control, don't have a solid contract (without the changable terms) or isn't owned by a nonprofit.

The free ones will hurt you but you expect it. The paid ones hurt more because you often build a business around an ecosystem that eats you up.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by Nextgrid on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:45PM (#25667368)
Profit/monetization doesn't have to be bad. There's nothing wrong with money being exchanged for a service and both sides are satisfied. The problem is when that monetization is based on something else than money (such as personal data) or that the company abuses their monopoly position to force people into an unfair deal.

The solution isn't to say "profit = bad", it's to break up monopolies or force interoperability and forbid certain forms of "payment" (such as exploiting and reselling personal data) that are deemed nefarious to society.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by tobib on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:12PM (#25666411)
That's why I'm still sceptical of Signal. It's free as well, paid for by donations but still. At the end of the day I'm not the one paying directly for the service I'm using.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by 7v3x3n3sem9vv on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:32PM (#25666573)
Signal is "owned" by a non-profit. They can't be sold to a for profit, they learned their lessons from WhatsApp.

Lastly, Signal doesn't collect/store any of your data on their infrastructure other than a few hashes required for operation. WhatsApp/facebook on the other hand collect, and likely keep, forever, at much metadata about you as possible. The only way to pay for this free storage is to stay more data so they can target you for advertising dollars.

This doesn't guarantee that Signal will live forever, but at the very least they've learned from previous mistakes and have taken actions to address them.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by webmobdev on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:42PM (#25666643)
Where is Signal's owner non-profit located? Different countries have different laws regarding the status of a corporations profit or non-profit label.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by ffpip on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @10:08PM (#25666795)
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by webmobdev on Thursday January 07, 2021 @04:21AM (#25669006)
That's what I was afraid of - in the US, non-profits can be converted to for-profit. So here, Signals non-profit status for its owner shouldn't be relevant to us.

https://www.upcounsel.com/converting-non-profit-to-for-profi...

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by jorvi on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:46PM (#25667372)
Damn. I really like Signal and it's still a cut above most, but even they must realize the US is a pretty poor place for such an organization compared to, say, Germany or Switzerland?
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by mortenjorck on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:51PM (#25666702)
I know the circumstances are different, but what almost happened to .org is going to haunt me for some time.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by thayne on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:10PM (#25667187)
Signal is also open source, so if they do somehow become for-profit, it can always be forked.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by est31 on Thursday January 07, 2021 @12:28AM (#25667594)
You would only be able to fork the client, not the network. Signal doesn't want forks or third party rebuilds e.g. from F-Droid to connect to their main network.

Most people use these apps for the network. The app without the network is useless, but any fork would initially be in this situation.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by thayne on Thursday January 07, 2021 @11:34AM (#25673168)
> You would only be able to fork the client

The signal server is also open source. The absence of federation does mean you would also need to get all of your contacts to move to a different service as well, but it is better than a proprietary system. I do wish Signal was more open to federation and/or alternative clients though.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by madhadron on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @10:19PM (#25666874)
Signal also writes the encryption that WhatsApp and Duo use.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by mroche on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:09PM (#25667184)
I was confused at first: Google Duo, not Cisco Duo. I'd completely forgotten about Google Duo.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by InvertedRhodium on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:21PM (#25666481)
If they take donations in order to fund it, doesn't that give you the option of paying for the service directly?
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by tobib on Thursday January 07, 2021 @12:52PM (#25674528)
In a way, except that there is no link between my usage and a payment, do you know what I mean? If I paid even $1 a month, I could sleep well knowing they're promising me X in exchange for Y. With a donation it just feels like I'm rewarding them for their high level promises/values. I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by wheybags on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:19PM (#25666468)
Donate! Then you are.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by 0xbadcafebee on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:35PM (#25666598)
Other people who run on donations: Public Radio, The Red Cross, all government services, all religions. It's fine to be skeptical of how they use their donations, but don't be skeptical just because that's their funding model.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by SllX on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:32PM (#25667298)
Taxes are not donations.

Your example of religions is also suspect. To be blunt we perceive it that way in places and times where established Churches are legally independent and separate from the government. It’s not always and often isn’t true, or at least isn’t the case by default in some places.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Compare and contrast with Alms, the more charitable less compulsory concept:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alms

Just one more reason to love separation of Church and State and the prohibition on Congress on making laws respecting an establishment of religion.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by aftbit on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:17PM (#25667227)
Taxes to pay for government services are more like protection money than donations IMHO. If I were to stop paying, some angry people with guns would eventually come to my door to take me away.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by 0xbadcafebee on Thursday January 07, 2021 @09:31AM (#25671409)
The protection you get isn't a racket, it's a system that enables you and others to live in a society. If you don't want to live in a society, best of luck to you.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by Maken on Thursday January 07, 2021 @12:48AM (#25667688)
It's more like a subscription fee. They kick you out of society if you stop paying.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by SllX on Thursday January 07, 2021 @01:51AM (#25668014)
Protection money is pretty accurate actually. Instead of paying salaries for Armies and the City Guard, it’s law enforcement. Well, Armies too.

Not the nicest way to put it but they put in Yeoman’s[1] work and earn it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by 0xbadcafebee on Thursday January 07, 2021 @09:33AM (#25671431)
No, it's not accurate at all.

"Protection money" means somebody is illegally forcing you to pay for something that you don't want or need, solely to enrich themselves. But it's not illegal if it's literally the foundation of the society.

Democracy is the most expensive system of government. It has to be paid for or it doesn't work. It's paid for with taxes. It's not protection money, it's fuel for a life support system that you and everyone else is hooked up to.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by SllX on Thursday January 07, 2021 @02:43PM (#25676208)
In this case taxes are paying for the protection of a democratic society, which you can fairly reasonably call protection money.

I mean was it legal when the local Baron came and levied a tax on your wheat? Under the King’s laws, or maybe it was just tradition, but if the alternative is you’re killed and your land is taken and given to someone more loyal, then you just had a tax levied upon you and the payment was your life.

Similarly, merchants which snuck into cities rather than paying the tax at the gates were not entitled to protections from whoever was the guarantor of laws, a city guard or the like.

So what’s going to happen if you don’t pay your taxes? Turns out the IRS, the States and the equivalents in other countries have legal means of taking what you own for what you owe. We can discuss the tradeoffs on this, but in practice it’s not overly different from a Duke or a King or a mobster. What’s different is the process, the expectancy of it, and the legality.

At the end of the day, what we’re paying for is the protection of our police, fire departments, Armies and Navies.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by ptero on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @10:35PM (#25666978)
There are different models claiming free stuff.

One is a google-style lock into an ecosystem of free apps that a company can monetize at any time. Stay away if possible: the users will be milked sooner or later.

The other is openstreetmap-style set of free data that anyone can download anytime, plus some apps (maybe free, maybe not) using it for some function. I see no problem with it as the lock-in is highly unlikely because the main feature (say, map data) is always available. My 2c.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by the_arun on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:35PM (#25667314)
I agree there is no free lunch. But for that I don't want to sell everything & stand naked. Instead Whatsapp should introduce features on top of their platform - like Payments and make money out of that. Or add a throttle on number of messages people send per day or something. No free lunch is not an excuse for stealing data.
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by Zelphyr on Thursday January 07, 2021 @12:44AM (#25667666)
I believe you may have misunderstood my post. I’m not excusing Facebook’s actions around their users’ privacy (or any of their crooked actions for that matter)

I’m trying to encourage people to remember that this is what these companies do when we use their services for free. They seem to think they are entitled to our private data and they are beginning to respond harshly when we try to keep what is rightly ours to ourselves.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by jimkleiber on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @11:35PM (#25667317)
What if we users decided to organize and have more bargaining power over how these apps function?
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by hbosch on Thursday January 07, 2021 @12:16AM (#25667531)
Didn't WhatsApp used to be monetized by default? Something like $1/year?
Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by xwdv on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:10PM (#25666389)
There is a free lunch, it just doesn’t last forever.

Use a service until it’s useful, then be prepared to leave when you no longer agree to its terms. The average user will go through many social networks and apps throughout their life.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by sombremesa on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:53PM (#25666718)
> All these “free” products out there that seem great have Venture Capital investors

Not all of them. Some, like unroll.me, blatantly tell you they sell your data - and people still give them access to their entire E-mail inbox.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by vinay_ys on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:24PM (#25666511)
This isn't about free of fees vs not. It is about changing privacy policy drastically in an era when people do actually care about privacy.