Then sometime in the mid 2000s everything online became sanitized and corporate.
I'm not saying everything has to be boring and same everywhere, I'd like to see the world that's actually quite the opposite, that's diverse and where people are pushing the boundaries of expression. Where I see infantilisation happening is where things with very low information ratio (and usually something evoking one of the basic emotions with high valence and high arousal) are described as fun and cool.
I think OP's product is sitting somewhere on that border, but their marketing angle is definitely pushing it towards the infantility. Just look at the title of this very post, but I guess it worked, in the end we've all clicked on the comments and are here.. :)
I really dug this Reslash concept after seeing that grainy image of a classroom used as a background. It's something you just slap on because you're about to teach, but it isn't a painfully constructed "Knowledge Session" with a stock image-riddled Powerpoint deck.
Personally, I think it's been downhill since someone decided we needed ui/ux designers instead of sleep deprived developers who assumed it was always the (l)users fault for not being able to figure out how to use things. Sure, it has made things easier to use for the masses, but I don't care about the masses.
The "masses" are real people too, with feelings. We should care about them. Also, they include our family and, hopefully, friends.
But yeah, I know it's basically a necessity now, and I understand that services need to cater to as many people as possible. I just wanted to be a cranky old nerd for a bit :-)
With that said, I do agree with GP with regards to things outside of the web: products have a lot more franchise placements (e.g. disney-themed shampoos), and school for my kids have a lot more of an artsy/hippie feel than I remember my dry seats-facing-forward education some 30 years ago. Gaming among adults is far more socially accepted than 30 years ago - you wouldn't even bat an eyelid at an old lady playing candy crush in the bus these days. Etc.
I suspect an increase in middle class disposable income might have something to do with this. Look, for example, at how culture progressed over the decades in Japan. Nowadays, you have grown adults who are into moe[0] stuff, along all sort of "infantile" subcultures (by western standards).
But that process will always look like people saying "this isn't my fault" and focussing on "something they can't change [by themselves]".
Anyhow, not saying your intuition are wrong (there are degrees I agree with), but just noting it has some fuzzy edges that point toward some weird truisms
My analysis: A focus on "challenge" is the framing someone takes when they're more enamoured with the infinitely wide possibility space around any system (* raises hand * guilty), while "solutions/actions" tend to be valourized when someone is more interested in the point of collapse of the possibility space, where possibilities condense into reality.
Both are the right and wrong tools at the same time imho. Too much of either is dysfunctional. I'm certainly dysfunctional in some situations with my predispositions, but superhuman in others. I assume there are also some places where you feel maladapted (though perhaps your neurotype doesn't translate this into uncertainty of your values, as mind does).
Honestly, I feel much of the work of a holding societies together is sorting out ways to allow these two types to work together, and reciprocate value between their styles. It's a tension that exists in all systems at all levels of organizing matter (eg. brains navigated this with lateralization into hemispheres), and society isn't special.
We're both wrong and right, and just need to at least see that as true, and maybe not try to claim too much authority for our own camp. (Maybe ubiquitous social welfare IS claiming too much authority.)
Anyhow, thanks. I appreciate your perspective, and it humbles mine.
Also, it is useful to talk about systemic problems that are much larger than what any individual can fix just by being extra diligent.
I see your point though, that something being nobody's fault can be just as damaging as spending an egregious amount of time trying to assign blame (the traditional way of things). My opinion is that responsibility, and being able to take some flak for when that ownership goes awry, should be conditioned like exercise. Taking none is like never exercising, and it's very unhealthy. Throwing 1000 pounds of weight on someone suddenly because of a pathological need for the group to have a scapegoat doesn't make that person better, though. It just crushes them and it's a net loss for the group. That weight and stress should be shared. We need to cultivate the real maturity to take and give some blame constructively, and recognize all extenuating factors, so that people neither get infantilized and helpless nor simply squashed because of a systemic problem that the group just doesn't want to address.
Its a top down theory/solution to what critics would argue is a bottom up problem. Individuals must be responsible for what they say, how they regulate their emotional state, and how their experiences and cognitive distortions skew their thinking. CT/CRT, by my understanding, argues against this. Thus it seems reasonable to say it leads to a lack of accountability if you define accountability as a responsibility for ones actions and beliefs.
I’ve read a small bit on CT/CRT, intersectionality, and the modern culture of safetyism. Primarily from Haidt who has more peer reviewed sources on things than anyone could ever want.
https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Gen...
https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Mind-Divided-Politics-Relig...
I find CT/CRT to be compelling to a degree, but it brings along with it too much baggage in my opinion. You’re likely not going to find or be given a specific source of data that says CRT leads to lack of accountability (however you would measure that), its an assumption made by the previous poster. You don’t need one either to have a discussion, so don’t fall back on the lack of academic evidence as an argument in itself.
This is probably not an answer to what you've asked. I just wanted to tell you about how motivations behind building this.
Certainly at conventions with 'presentations' many people sit near each other to discuss what's being said (or talk past the parts not relevant to them) in real-time. Orchestras still have conductors (strictly interpreting fixed works) but I think most people would rather be in a band (for the creative interactivity) and rather listen to a band.
The funny thing about that, much like when we were that age, those platforms and things the young folks think are cool were made by people who are the age of millenials or older for the most part.
I dunno, when I was younger a lot of the music and stuff I thought was cool was being made by people who were around the same age I am now.
Not too sure what my point is really, your comment just made me think of this. People around that age start lamenting their lack of cool, but are responsible for many of the things people younger than them find cool...something like that I suppose.
> Now the sound of music comes in silver pills
> Engineered to suit you, building cheaper thrills
> The music of rebellion makes you wanna rage
> But it's made by millionaires who are nearly twice your age
I can't vouch for these specific stats, but I've come across multiple articles over the years that support this. Here's at least some data I found:
https://www.childtrends.org/indicators/binge-drinking
Anecdotally, tons of clubs have closed in since the 90's with no replacement where I lived (Toronto and North Netherlands). Everything at least in my circles suggests that drugs, drinking, partying is all happening less now compared to the previous generations.
Ymmv depending on where you are from though.
Not very broadly, even among “the kids” (who, then and now, are far from monolithic.) She was more seen as a trainwreck that was in cool circles, not as a cool trainwreck.
> Kids look up to Elon Musk
Yeah, kids looked up to successful business and tech figures in the 1990s, and there are trainwreck entertainment industry celebs today, too.
It's not the case that Musk is idolized by a similar segment of the youth as would have idolized Love in the 1990s.
Besides that, I spent plenty of Friday evenings staying up until 4 AM playing The Sims (the original game). It’s not like high school kids really have a choice on what they’re doing a lot of times - they don’t have complete freedom of movement.
It will allow the tech/product to evolve and soon also fit your usecase. Because most likely thats where the real money is.
Just check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Palace_(computer_program)
This also doesn't just apply to work, many people my age (32) are super into cartoons and Disneyland, but the concept of going to Disneyland without a child in your 30s seems... weird to me. It is probably good that people feel comfortable to be sort of weird though versus the stoic version of adulthood in the past.
But I don't know why the marketing needs to be so "fun". I hated all the "fun" slack brought to my life... and slowed down good communication dramatically.
1. https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Gen...
Especially the last 9 months. Normally one would talk with coworkers in the office, over a coffee, before a meeting etc. Remote meetings I find are strictly business.
Where we disagree is the point that I don't think that gifs are helping you to know who your coworkers are. And more importantly I think it is not helping anyone to better understand themselves, which is one of the values of having conversations with people in the first place - that's kinda what philosophy schools were for. Gifs seem to serve some sort of emotional regulation function, but I've never investigated more deeply into that.
Now, I'm not trying to make a point here that you should only have serious conversations all the time, and definitely see the humour value of well timed gif, but I've found out that in general the trend is to shallow out the discussions and keep them within very narrow window of discourse.
In the office, I can find something to do at my desk alone or I can chat up some coworkers over coffee and the like.
Remote, the options are endless and I can chat up my family and friends. I can do chores like dishes or laundry so they're not all waiting for me after work. I can go for a walk without being that guy who takes too many walks. Truly anything so long as the time allocation and availability to plug back in are appropriate.
For me, this is why I prefer remote meetings be strictly business, and changing that isn't particularly compelling. My coworkers are cool, but prioritizing them over the rest of my life makes no sense to me so long as the value I bring to the company remains just as strong.
Also, the fact that someone enjoys their job doesn't mean the experience can't be improved.
* US has been suffering from its postwar boom period hangover for over 40 years now. The job market isn't like it was due to other emerging economies now having their boom periods. All those dreams and aspirations that millennials were promised (You can be whatever you want! Follow your passion and the work will follow) were shattered and turned out to be contemptible lies perpetuated by the secondary education system and the job market as a whole. As a result, a whole generation is saddled with debt, and are delaying milestones of life progression (buying a house, having kids), indefinitely for many.
* The rise of the Internet and the millennials being at its forefront has opened up massive new markets in the entertainment section, most notably Disney. They own most entertainment IPs, and know that millennials want to relive their childhoods so they sell it back to them. Comic book movies aren't just a fad like 80s actions movies were; they're here to stay. And Disney wants adults to keep being obsessed with what are essentially children's movies. All the social media companies want you on their product all the time using it and sharing everything you can (especially the juicy controversial stuff that is polarizing the country, oh boy do they love those articles).
It’s okay to let people build, deliver, and market things that you don’t need/want. People are allowed to like things that you yourself do not like.
Reading the other replies to this comment I feel I am about to be downvoted to hell lol
At the core of the problem, We've probably lost a lot of good UI designers in position of decision from last generation. This reflects on what is considered the "correct" way to make software UI nowadays. Note that blink unicorns are not necessary for a interface to be childish. Oversized buttons, lack of power features and the constant need to "reinvent" is a frenzy that gets some folks mad too.
Particularly about the tool, I think this has some cool features that gets wanned by the backgrounds choice on the video pitch.
Maybe it's the still-living-at-your-parents-at-25 economy... Maybe it's also because the 20, 30-somethings have been raised by more and more helicopter parents and schools giving out participation medals, i.e. too coddled.
https://kingalfredpress.com/2017/09/20/the-infantalism-of-cu...
This comes across as some kind of conservative boomer complaining about "kids these days", with their avocado toast, who aren't willing to work as hard as their grandfathers were in a world that's vastly different from the one they grew up in.
The crux of the article with regards to Simon Pegg seems to be that movies have moved to "spectacle", but when did that happen? And who is going to see those movies? And why?
The world is going to shit; the 1% own most of the world, climate change is destroying our planet, and politicians are more concerned with their own success than the lives of their constituents. Is it any wonder that people these days need more escapism than their grandparents in the "golden age of America", where employees would work hard their whole lives and companies would take care of their employees, where you could work a typical job and still be able to afford a house and a comfortable lifestyle, and where you didn't have to feel bad about hurting someone's feelings by being overtly racist all the time, because you never ran into black people because they weren't allowed to use the same water fountains or bathrooms as you.
This article, in short, is garbage, and should be treated as such.
Professionalism is seen as patronizing - which is a vibe I can mostly get behind, but massively hinders direct, important communication or collaboration. I also see a lot of dishonest but well-intentioned platitudes being thrown around that hides actual feedback.
But I’m ranting! Literally sounding like an old person... should I feel guilty about age-ism??? That’s my young person perspective.
It’s good to not feel totally alone in these things. The kids behind us are wild, in my opinion.
What do you mean by this? The next generation which will follow yours?
We need the transportation. Make it reliable, fast, and non interfering. That’s it. That’s why Zoom rocks. It just works
This is the point actually. If "boring" is your video call vibe, go for it. It's still an expression.
It doesn't even stop with everything being "fun and cool" -- take a look at how dumb social media interaction really is. An infinite stream of stuff that the user just presses "like" or "love" or whatever at, and immediately scrolls / swaps to the next diversion.
Also, you may be surprised to find out that you are allowed to have silly fun as an adult.
In my opinion, the “infantilization” of our workplaces is a huge positive, it’s really a side effect that’s demonstrating that employers are caring less about forcing us to wear fake clothes, fake personalities, and fake formality during our day to day work. Comedy is one of the best coping mechanisms to deal with stress and in that way it helps to be able to slap a GIF over a situation without feeling like the boss man is going to tell me to tone it down.
And sure, maybe there’s no need for this product, but what I can say is that if you build another Zoom/Meet/WebEx you aren’t really making anything new or interesting.
Having an office full of clowns is a great way to get nothing done.
Recently I've seen startup, where you were earning XP points for quickly closing customer support tickets, and earning badges...
A college buddy worked at a place like that. But it wasn't a startup, it was a long-established company.
It was also 1996, and he learned that closing deals on copies of Windows 95 was worth twice as many points as other software, so he focused all his efforts on that so he could do half the work of his "teammates" in his cubicle farm.
At 42, I've felt this is the cause for quite some time. You see it in things like the adult Disney woman[0]. Part of it is playing it safe so as not to offend the conservatives with a nipple, but market forces have been driving movies this direction as well[1].
Gutting education to dumb down the populace hasn't helped.
[0] - https://youtu.be/vLIfkiF8NeQ
[1] - https://www.gq.com/story/the-day-the-movies-died-mark-harris
Yep, a distraction to increasing alienation and atomization under Kapital.
I don't think I've presented the full picture, but you asked where this trend is coming from, and to me this is the only common factor and starting point of investigation.
Ah yes, those socialists and their totally not family friendly media? Really?
> When you're waiting for customer support, you have to hear a fun jingle so you don't get upset.
It's so you know you haven't been disconnected.
> People have to be talked down to like children so they know their place in the wealth hierarchy.
Please don't talk down to people regardless of how wealthy you are. You will always have the best luck by being warm but polite, talking respectfully but honestly.
> It's an ideology, not in the sense of political beliefs, but rather false ideas that ...
Capitalism appears to be pretty real, and it appears to be pretty political. I would not say it "dominates" society since plenty of people seem to be against it in name alone.
"Admit Nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-Accusations"
Why am I not surprised to see this kind of instinctive reaction. I don't want to debate your points because that is way out of scope for this thread and I don't want to be chased out.
Moreover, if you can't debate what he wrote in HN, you shouldn't explore his life outside of HN to try to build a strawman.
Everything is becoming increasingly infantile. Everything has to be fun and cool. I'm wondering where is this trend coming from. Is this some sort of a social response to how terrible and bleak reality seems to be? Or maybe it's because we actually treat majority of people like little children. If one looks how the current enterprises work, the person within them have very limited decision making power and access to information. In a way that reminds me of a quote from interview with Erich Fromm[1]: "It is true that one has to think first and then to act -but it's also true that if one has no possibility of acting, one's thinking kind of becomes empty and stupid.".
Any other ideas? Or maybe it's actually not happening at all, and it's only me who's not getting it.
[1]: https://hrc.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15878coll...
PS: OP, I don't mean that as criticism of your product, I think it correctly identifies and addresses the need. It's the why is it even a need part I'm curious about.