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Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by Nacdor on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:03PM (#25648615)
> Ticketmaster has agreed to pay a $10 million criminal fine

Live Nation is worth $16 Billion. This is like a person with a $100k net worth having to pay a $62 fine, basically an expensive parking ticket.

They might as well tell them to write "I will not hack my competitors" on the blackboard 100 times.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by femto113 on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:39PM (#25649136)
Worth noting that TicketMaster also paid $110MM to "acquire" SongKick in order to settle the original (civil) lawsuit.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by m463 on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:01PM (#25649462)
This could be a business model.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by superfrank on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @11:20PM (#25654634)
It basically is a business model for dating sites. Get big enough to be annoying and then wait for Match Group to make an offer.

Match Group owns Tinder, Match.com, OkCupid, Hinge, and PlentyOfFish as well as a metric fuck ton of niche sites.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by varispeed on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @06:33AM (#25656776)
This seems like a huge gaping loophole in capitalism. I think companies should be disallowed to buy competing companies (even via proxy) and companies beyond certain threshold should by law be divided into smaller companies.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by tim333 on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @07:29AM (#25657104)
It's been noted. It's what the

> The Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission was set up on 1 January 1949

was for, now the Competition Commission. How well that works is debatable.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by RIMR on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:52AM (#25658231)
Counterpoint: This isn't a "loophole" or a "flaw" in capitalism. This is just capitalism working exactly as it was designed.

The entire point of capitalism is to acquire as much capital as possible, not to be the best at what you do. It's not a meritocracy. The best idea doesn't win - the best FUNDED idea wins, which means whichever dumb idea that benefits the rich the most is what you're going to get.

And if the rich people who own Match.com decide that buying up every competitor and rolling them into their platform is what's going to make them the most money, that's what they are going to do.

Don't view it as a flaw of capitalism that needs to be fixed, think of it as a feature of capitalism that necessitates a conversation about alternatives.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by harpiaharpyja on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @10:09AM (#25658379)
I'm sick of this meme. The purpose of any institution - economic, political, social - is to serve some function and if we can modify it to better serve whatever function we desire, we should be able to do so without disingenuous aholes in comment threads bitching through their 1-dimensional ploy to shut down all conversation that doesn't include their pet solution of "burn down everything so we can implement the system I want"

How about this: Improving what is there IS an alternative, and one that must be seriously considered.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by Bombthecat on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @04:36PM (#25651470)
The world is turning more and more into neuromancer / shadowrun everyday..
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by ct520 on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @04:11PM (#25651115)
Sounds like some solid DD to me
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by pedalpete on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @05:15PM (#25651934)
I had always thought Warner bought SongKick, but further investigation shows they did not buy the pending lawsuit or the ticketing business.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by paxys on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:36PM (#25649100)
It isn't even an expensive parking ticket. Traffic fines in the Bay Area are in the hundreds even for minor offenses.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by nOObie1 on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @03:42PM (#25650742)
The Bay Area and expensive are already synonymous
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by soupson on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:19PM (#25648823)
Your point still stands, but a better comparison I think is cash on hand, since valuation doesn’t mean much in terms of paying fines. You can’t pay the government in stock.

LYV had $2.6b on hand last quarter.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by arcticbull on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:32PM (#25649030)
You totally can pay the government in stock, you just have to sell it or set it aside in a trust.

There's prior art, this is what the IRS makes folks who are attempting to renounce their citizenship (or give up a green card held for over 8 years) do for illiquid assets when paying the expatriation tax.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by brokensegue on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:34PM (#25649069)
but LiveNation doesn't hold stock worth $16B and cannot easily issue new stock.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by arcticbull on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:35PM (#25649079)
I didn't realize paying criminal penalties was supposed to be fun and easy ;) this is literally restitution for a crime.

"Uh, no Judge, I don't think I should be forced to go to prison, that's hard"

[edit] Maybe this is controversial, I dunno, I might just be old fashioned that way, but my opinion is if you find the punishment too onerous maybe don't do crime.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by james-skemp on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:00PM (#25649457)
Punishment is meant to deter others from doing the crime (whether or not that works is another issue), so I think you're correct.

If people/organizations are committing a crime, then one reason may be that the punishment/deterrent is too lax.

(There's of course other reasons, like the law making the act a crime is bad in some way, or the individual/organization has no, or knows of no, alternative.)

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @04:24PM (#25651278)
This was a deferred prosecution agreement between Ticketmaster and a DOJ lawyer, not the court's decision. In the US, courts have limited power to review these agreements and generally judges just approve them every time. In other countries that allow DPE's, courts may have the power to limit their use.

The agreement might state what Ticketmaster must do or refrain from doing after the effective date to avoid being prosecuted in the future. Paying a fine might be only one part of the agreement.

One can only make assumptions about what the court might have found regarding the CFAA claim. The fact is, it did not get the opportunity.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by ForHackernews on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:13PM (#25649647)
Maybe this is an opening for a new startup: Frictionless, delightful resolution of criminal charges for the ultrawealthy. Simple automated payment of slap-on-the-wrist fines, and with the optional Uber-for-inmates premium add-on we'll find somebody to serve any jail time in your place.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by cookie_monsta on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @04:21PM (#25651233)
I think there are some extradition lawyers who would agree with this
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:15PM (#25649681)
It is not restitution if the money doesn’t go the harmed party
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by munk-a on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:34PM (#25649911)
Restitution is one of the comparably less important facets of our legal system (IMO), the important strength of a good legal system is deterrence. Restitution should (again IMO) in fact be severed from judgement, harmed parties should be reimbursed by the government and the government can excise penalties on the offending parties. There are a lot of cases where defendants should be hit with serious fines due to the potential and foreseeable damages of their actions but the claimants suffered comparatively little - in these cases an imbalanced judgement where the defendant is hit with a strong penalty that is only partially awarded to the claimant is fair... Then again (in the US at least) the legal system is essentially privatized with very little government intervention in cases so this would require some other changes to do properly.

The other side of the coin is quite damaging to our society as well - a defendant being judgement proof (having nothing to penalize or fine) can deprive claimants of funds needed to repair the damage of the crime - this, again, is a case where the government awarding funds and then regaining those funds from the defendant independently would be quite beneficial.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by nickff on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @03:44PM (#25650760)
Aren't people constantly arguing that deterrence is ineffective against individuals, and that rehabilitation is best? I don't take a personal view on these things, but I would imagine that the people arguing for more severe 'punishment' of corporations and white-collar criminals are the ones arguing for lenience in violent and other individual crime.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by hansvm on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @04:28PM (#25651343)
It's possible for both of those views to coexist. I have no idea if the data fits such a model, but off the top of my head here are a few factors which might matter.

1. White-collar criminals might be more significantly deterred by the threat of any prison time, perhaps because they have more to lose or because such crimes have more premeditation.

2. Prison might work as a deterrent in general, but if 20yrs will already ruin your life then the additional threat of another 80yrs might have little to no impact.

3. Rehabilitation might have a stronger effect than deterrence, which could point to hybrid solutions leveraging both effects, supposing they mix appropriately.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @05:08PM (#25651862)
At a high level, I think it would be silly to say that deterrence is entirely ineffective. I think most individuals making serious arguments against it state that it is only effective in certain circumstances, it has diminishing returns, and as a country, the US errors on the side of sentences which are much longer than necessary.

For example, If a crime is punished with incarceration, it seems unlikely that a person would make a calculated decision that 5 years in prison is an acceptable risk but 10 is not.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by nightcracker on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @06:04PM (#25652472)
The idea that companies and humans are in any way equivalent is preposterous.

Companies can not be rehabilitated because they aren't moral beings. They only understand one thing: profit. Thus for companies the financial deterrent is effective and appropriate.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by not2b on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @07:10PM (#25653151)
Exactly. If fines are less than the profit gained, the only price is the bad publicity and that often fades away after a few news cycles. This verdict sends a message that you might as well destroy a competitor in this way because the price will be insignificant even if you're caught. There might be personal risk if an individual is charged, but they can give some flunkie the job, make sure nothing is in writing, and then blame the employee or contractor if anything goes wrong.

We really need the "death penalty" for companies: dissolve the corporation after a certain number of offenses, sell the assets off to raise money to compensate the victims.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by Spooky23 on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @05:09PM (#25651875)
People say all sorts of things. How often do you drive 90 mph on the highway?

Most people learn over time when they are young that it is a losing proposition.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @03:56PM (#25650909)
The parent post was talking about restitution. I was addressing this point.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by arcticbull on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @04:37PM (#25651484)
You are correct, I misspoke. Thanks!
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by texasbigdata on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @06:56PM (#25653025)
That’s not the right way to think about it. Enterprise value is some number say $19B (shares plus debt less cash; think of the equity in your house). Assume existing debt is $5B. You “give” a debt-like instrument to govt, say $10B.

Debt is ahead of stock. The stock is now “worth” a few billion. No new stock issued.

The Nobel prize in economics was won for this concept in 1990 iirc: the value of the firm is independent to how it’s financed. Just like how the value of your house has nothing to do with what interest rate you pay in your mortgage.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by sscotth on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @06:20PM (#25652640)
My cash on hand is significantly less than my net worth too.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by not2b on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @07:12PM (#25653160)
If you commit an offense that has a large financial penalty, no one will care about that, you'll have to sell assets to raise the cash.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by codereflection on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:30PM (#25648998)
... and they'll call it "The cost of doing business". Disgusting.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by xmprt on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:49PM (#25650088)
Are fines tax deductible?
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by jedberg on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @04:01PM (#25650983)
No, fines aren't deductible.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by cbsmith on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:30PM (#25649872)
This is the not-quite-last (there's a deferred prosecution agreement that is part of this) in a series of consequences in a case that goes way back in time.

I'm not sure I follow the logic of looking at the net worth of a conglomerate when assessing a fine. If someone parks the corporate car in a no-parking zone, or spits out chewing gum on the sidewalk, you're not going to fine them x% of net worth. At least in terms of consequences for the corporation, you'd they would be (punitively) proportional to the economic impact of the criminal activity.

What was the impact of this conduct? It's not mentioned in the story. If they paid a $10 million fine on criminal activity that gleaned them a $1 billion advantage, then yeah this is a slap on the wrist. If it's a $10 million fine on something that gave them a $10 advantage, it's arguably overly punitive.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by confidantlake on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @04:36PM (#25651474)
Some countries actually do this, charge variable fines depending on net worth. The fine in this case is to de-incentivize bad behavior like reckless driving.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by cbsmith on Thursday January 07, 2021 @05:25PM (#25678511)
It makes sense for penalties on people that aren't motivated by profit.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by tschwimmer on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:39PM (#25649962)
A street cleaning ticket in SF is $79 and is probably one of the cheapest fines you'll pay.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by whalesalad on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:42PM (#25650003)
A parking ticket in Chelsea, Michigan is $8. I forgot to pay it for 6 months and they didn't even care.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by enkid on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:44PM (#25650022)
Some places parking ticket is revenue, some places it's just a reminder.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by sixothree on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @06:14PM (#25652576)
I think I paid > $150 for parking too close to a driveway.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by colejohnson66 on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @06:15PM (#25652586)
The cost of going to a judge for an arrest warrant and then arresting you would cost an least an order of magnitude more than that!
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by colejohnson66 on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @06:14PM (#25652579)
A speeding ticket in Southern California was over $600 for me a few years ago.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by nightcracker on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @06:01PM (#25652446)
> This is like a person with a $100k net worth having to pay a $62 fine, basically an expensive parking ticket.

> They might as well tell them to write "I will not hack my competitors" on the blackboard 100 times.

Not even. I bet a person with a $100k net worth will probably rather pay $62 than have to do the blackboard punishment.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by jobu on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:12PM (#25649628)
Fines for corporations should be a percentage of revenue, otherwise massive companies will keep doing heinous shit and write it off as a cost of doing business. The GDPR penalties in the EU are done this way (up to 4% of revenue).
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by hansvm on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @05:01PM (#25651763)
That still just seems like a band-aid (sorry, I don't have a constructive alternative in mind).

If Massively-Evil-Plan™ increases profits from 10% to 20% then even after a 4% fine on revenue, real profits are still 15%. A company only motivated by profits and fines (which seems like a reasonable assumption if we're using laws like GDPR to deter "heinous shit") would be crazy not to continue with MEP™.

It's really the same kind of calculation as with fixed fines or fines based on damage done. When profitable, they're still written off as the cost of doing business. The only material difference would be that a fixed fine effectively allows large companies to do "heinous shit" while imposing fines so large that a small company can't compete, whereas with a revenue calculation you instead just need to make sure that your "heinous shit" is scalable. That doesn't apply in practice though, since GDPR has an alternative €20M fine which would go into effect, so in reality GDPR just says that to do "heinous shit" you need to be able to do a lot of it scalably and profitably.

The natural direction one might take this is just to say that the fines must not be big enough, but until you approach 100% of revenue the potential always exists for a new form of profitable "heinous shit" to crop up. If fines of that scale are on the table then that brings us to the other side of the coin: A single violation of any anti-MEP™ law will nearly certainly end the business. If a violation of an anti-MEP™ law necessarily meant that a corporation was doing "heinous shit" then that could plausibly be acceptable (definitely up for debate), but merely not appointing a data protection officer in the EU violates GDPR and potentially subjects a business to a 2% of revenue fine. The law will not perfectly align with what a reasonable person would consider "heinous shit," and too severe of a penalty in such situations seems prone to abuse.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by SN76477 on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @11:39PM (#25654714)
Fines for such acts need to be much larger. In addition I would like to see such funds turned into appropriate federal grants.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by CerealFounder on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:07PM (#25649548)
LOL A criminal fine. Is there anything more insane than nobody being personally responsible for committing a crime. Like an institution woke up and developed cognition.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by byset on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:22PM (#25649774)
But per the article, a Ticketmaster employee has pleaded guilty to a criminal offense related to the hacking