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Re:My Experience at Apple by fortran77 on Friday January 01, 2021 @09:33PM (#25609754)
> everyone was merged into another team working on something similar with new management. Meet the new boss same as the old boss

I worked for Apple before Jobs died. He'd frequently have several teams working on the exact same thing, in secret, and then pick the team that met his goals the best. Sometimes the "losers" would be merged into the "winning" team, but never treated well by the winners.

Re:My Experience at Apple by chromatin on Friday January 01, 2021 @10:45PM (#25610193)
I know more than one famous scientist who does this. Multiple postdocs working on the same project. Whomever gets there first gets a Cell-Science-Nature paper. The other(s) get nothing.

Probably a very common abusive management style at high levels in many industries.

Re:My Experience at Apple by WatchDog on Friday January 01, 2021 @11:25PM (#25610376)
The personal/political aspect aside, I can think of multiple projects that could have benefited from an approach like this.

I'm often astonished by the inefficiency of project delivery, particularly in large companies.

Teams spending months building sub-systems from scratch, where there is an off the shelf(sometimes open source) tool that will do the same job and better.

Man years of work going into chasing trends like "serverless" or "microservices" for no real reason, when a monolith running on a server, could be delivered in a fraction of the time and probably do a better job than what ended up being built.

I'm convinced that paying two teams to work on the same project would often cost less than paying for the huge teams and cost overruns I've seen.

Re:My Experience at Apple by periya on Saturday January 02, 2021 @01:55AM (#25610970)
I disagree, such an approach completely desensitizes the human aspect of work and treats the people working as commodities that are expendable. Engineering is hard, teams might need to go through multiple iterations/generations to get the desired results. A better investment would be to develop the right engineering culture rather than Team A vs Team B duking it out.
[dead]
Re:My Experience at Apple by piva00 on Saturday January 02, 2021 @05:49PM (#25617368)
It only is that way because we make that way. There's no law in the Universe dictating that people are spendable, it's part of a system, a myth we created and live on.

Don't get too cocky against someone that has a more humane view of what's valuable to be human. Get a grip that reality has very many shades of grey.

Re:My Experience at Apple by mark-r on Saturday January 02, 2021 @12:52AM (#25610747)
Interesting theory. If you pay 2 teams A and B to work on the same project, and B finishes in half the time it would have taken A, you really didn't spend anything extra did you?
Re:My Experience at Apple by outsomnia on Saturday January 02, 2021 @01:45AM (#25610935)
... until you find they finished first by cutting corners and delivering something that is only capable of passing the scant unit tests.

Then the "zero knowledge" psychopathic management style doesn't seem so smart.

Re:My Experience at Apple by roenxi on Saturday January 02, 2021 @03:39AM (#25611328)
It isn't a zero knowledge style. It is an experimental, or knowledge-acquiring style. To employ that approach most effectively it makes sense to have competing teams with purposefully different styles.
Re:My Experience at Apple by outsomnia on Saturday January 02, 2021 @02:02PM (#25615380)
> experimental, or knowledge-acquiring style

No knowledge is going to be acquired that way.

It's a manager who has decided understanding the nature of the work is beneath him, when he can deploy someone else's money to wind up some insects that will run around doing the work for him and watch them struggle against each other. Literally zero knowledge, before, during and after.

When whatever result appears they will not analyze the meaning of what happened beyond punishing some insects and rewarding others.

Re:My Experience at Apple by cutemonster on Saturday January 02, 2021 @12:39PM (#25614527)
> until you find they finished first by cutting corners and ...

Or until they accidentally burnt down the office building. You're right, doesn't seem so smart

Re:My Experience at Apple by joe_91 on Saturday January 02, 2021 @05:19AM (#25611733)
Why not just find the best people for the job who can understand the needs of the project they're working on and execute correctly?

Running two teams against each other just screams of waste/bad management in my opinion.

Re:My Experience at Apple by p0nce on Saturday January 02, 2021 @04:58AM (#25611612)
Suffering is the commodity engineers are providing.
Re:My Experience at Apple by fortran77 on Saturday January 02, 2021 @01:04AM (#25610796)
It’s fine if everyone knows they’re in a competition
Re:My Experience at Apple by cutemonster on Saturday January 02, 2021 @12:44PM (#25614583)
At the same time, can't this make it harder for members of the different teams to become friends with each other -- in a way, they are competitors, not coworkers. And maybe they'd be worried about getting fired if they "lost"? That could cause some of them to start looking for other jobs? Or some could feel bad, get demotivated. And other weird side effects.

What could be ways to avoid such things

How did this work out at Apple? When you were there

Re:My Experience at Apple by anonymouse008 on Friday January 01, 2021 @10:24PM (#25610085)
Gosh - I hope that isn’t a prerequisite to greatness?

How does someone even get the human and financial capital to run projects like this? I guess your first attempt with the first founding team has to ‘hit.’

Otherwise, how can you afford to triple headcount, management, etc?

Re:My Experience at Apple by wpietri on Friday January 01, 2021 @10:49PM (#25610212)
I suspect that abusive behavior is an optimal strategy if you're working for abusive people. Organizations tend to be set up such that people like the people in power succeed.

Jobs was a notorious jerk [1] [2] [3], so it's not surprising that similar behavior is what gets promoted.

[1] https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/steve-wozniak-cried-jobs-kept-atar...

[2] https://www.yahoo.com/news/memoir-steve-jobs-apos-daughter-1...

[3] https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-jerk-2011-10

Re:My Experience at Apple by neycoda on Friday January 01, 2021 @11:33PM (#25610410)
Steve Jobs died from being a jerk, to himself, because he refused to take his doctor's advice about his diet and pancreatic cancer. A reality distortion field only works so long.
Re:My Experience at Apple by CyberRabbi on Saturday January 02, 2021 @12:03AM (#25610541)
What was his diet?
Re:My Experience at Apple by mark-r on Saturday January 02, 2021 @12:54AM (#25610754)
The exact diet doesn't matter, what mattered is that he believed changing his diet would cure his cancer. In the end of course it didn't.
Re:My Experience at Apple by cbozeman on Saturday January 02, 2021 @01:37AM (#25610905)
The exact diet matters a metric shitton, because Jobs' hubris cost him his life, if instead he had realized he did not, in fact, know everything, he might still be alive.

Pancreatic cancer eats sugar for-fucking-breakfast. [1] He was eating nothing but fruit, and even though fructose release is regulated in its binding with fiber, its still sugar.

If Jobs had eaten nothing but bacon, steak, and eggs, we might still have him around. I forgot what folder my bookmarks are in, but there's scant - but compelling - evidence to support that a sugarless diet high in protein and fat quite literally starves pancreatic cancer.

[1] https://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13046-019-....

Re:My Experience at Apple by sebmellen on Saturday January 02, 2021 @02:10AM (#25611012)
In fact, ketogenic diets have been shown to slow tumor growth in a number of cancers. See https://www.mdanderson.org/cancerwise/the-keto-diet-and-canc....
Re:My Experience at Apple by woadwarrior01 on Saturday January 02, 2021 @03:44AM (#25611338)
Re:My Experience at Apple by jelliclesfarm on Saturday January 02, 2021 @02:52AM (#25611160)
> If Jobs had eaten nothing but bacon, steak, and eggs, we might still have him around.

Maybe he didn’t want to be around..

Re:My Experience at Apple by carlivar on Saturday January 02, 2021 @01:10AM (#25610819)
Nothing but fruit.
Re:My Experience at Apple by z3t4 on Friday January 01, 2021 @10:50PM (#25610216)
For most larger companies an engineer salary, or any human labour for that matter, is very cheap. FAANG could pay 10x more if they had to, but they don't have to because no one else pays more.
Re:My Experience at Apple by dcist on Friday January 01, 2021 @11:46PM (#25610471)
I'm not so sure. If engineer's were cheap, you wouldn't have Steve Jobs colluding with other companies to suppress salaries: https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jo...
Re:My Experience at Apple by mandelbrotwurst on Saturday January 02, 2021 @01:10AM (#25610823)
That he'd prefer to pay less doesn't mean he couldn't afford to pay more.
Re:My Experience at Apple by lodovic on Saturday January 02, 2021 @04:40AM (#25611524)
If money isn't part of the equation, this may actually be the best approach. During the 2007 financial crisis I worked at a bank that had to develop risk software really fast to comply with regulations and prevent disaster. They had two teams work on the same project and once a winning team emerged, they killed of the other. But the result was used for only a year or two, and replaced by a long term solution which was developed by yet another team in parallel.

As the saying goes, in software development, we can control speed, cost and quality, but only two at the same time.

Re:My Experience at Apple by Drdrdrq on Saturday January 02, 2021 @06:37AM (#25612105)
This is not a bad solution, as long as the teams are on the same side (and know it too). I strongly believe that toxic culture is neither needed nor useful, ever.
Re:My Experience at Apple by cutemonster on Saturday January 02, 2021 @12:56PM (#25614712)
How can one create a climate where they're on the same side?

And no one is afraid of "losing" and worried about problems that might cause? (Eg getting fired, even if managers say won't happen)

Re:My Experience at Apple by Drdrdrq on Saturday January 02, 2021 @04:07PM (#25616539)
By having leaders who want this and who know how to achieve it. It is simply a matter of principles and trust (both ways). Granted, I have only seen this in companies up to 100 employees... :shrug:
Re:My Experience at Apple by abraxas on Friday January 01, 2021 @11:02PM (#25610283)
I think this is due to the exponential payoff in a success scenario. Especially in high tech where certain initiatives can have a “winner take all” effect. I find it completely unsurprising that internally the tech giants function like a cluster of startups competing against each other.

Capitalism is based on the idea of transplanting the survival of the fittest paradigm into the economy and that’s exactly how I’d expect it to look in practice. Especially as progress accelerates and massive wins become both scarcer and more impactful at the same time.

Re:My Experience at Apple by neycoda on Friday January 01, 2021 @11:40PM (#25610440)
Internal competition on the same project shows a lack of confidence from management... it literally shows they don't know what to do, and are just throwing spaghetti at the wall, or aren't confident in their skills to get something deployed with what they choose. It's not solid leadership, it's dissonant.

It also sets people against each other, creates better-than-you mental heirarchies between equal workers where non are necessary, and is essentially friendly fire in the workplace. I've never seen this end well.

Capitalism isn't just economic natural selection either, it favors those with capital, and especially the most of it, and is easily exploitable by them to tip the playing field in their favor against their competition and those below them. Your analogy is bad in both cases; natural selection means one side dies, which is not what's being described here, and is not good for one side anyway, and capitalism is not as good as cooperation anyway. The latter is far more efficient.

Re:My Experience at Apple by virgilp on Saturday January 02, 2021 @02:25AM (#25611068)
Software projects often operate in high-uncertainty scenarios. Best approach may often only be "obvious" in hindsight. It's not irrational to do it in parallel/ in several teams - in fact, I'm surprised it's not happening more often.
Re:My Experience at Apple by spockz on Saturday January 02, 2021 @01:07AM (#25610805)
I disagree that (internal) competition unequivocally leads to better-than-you mindset. If done properly, in an open and sharing mindset – one might call it scientific, with expectations and criteria defined up front and with the projects objectively compared against the criteria, then it will work. I have also this work. It takes effort to come up with criteria and metrics beforehand but that is what makes it different from throwing spaghetti at the wall .
Re:My Experience at Apple by cutemonster on Saturday January 02, 2021 @12:59PM (#25614740)
> If done properly

Any guidelines? What to think about

Re:My Experience at Apple by spockz on Saturday January 02, 2021 @02:50PM (#25615818)
First and foremost, a safe (team) environment. This has to be created over time and there are few shortcuts.

In addition, for each experiment you need: a defined time window, up front criteria by which to judge the results, optionally form solution ideas together, give all teams the same amount of time and opportunity, after the experiment is finished each team presents their solution in a fact based manner in perspective of the criteria. After this the teams rotate and see what they can improve on their original solution with the remarks and information from the other tracks. After this decide together or with an informed captain which solution to continue. After this there should be no hard feelings, no personal consequences. Each team should be treated equally because they all contributed to the end goal. This is what will give you a fair competition and help create team safety.

This can be done on all kind of levels, between one day for something small and two/four weeks for the bigger challenges. Making it bigger than this will incur a lot of stakes/vested interest.

Re:My Experience at Apple by cutemonster on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @09:46AM (#25658176)
Thanks!

> After this the teams rotate and see what they can improve on their original solution

Interesting idea

Re:My Experience at Apple by seirim on Saturday January 02, 2021 @03:04AM (#25611209)
>Internal competition on the same project shows a lack of confidence from management...

I'd disagree, internal competition (like it or not, and yes it doesn't sound fun and often doesn't feel great or fair) can be a very effective motivating strategy. And management is used to using this with sales teams, everyone in sales is always competing with each other. It's never fair, they'll have unequal markets, for example, but the competition is incredibly motivating. When I was in sales long ago, the drive to be the best and regarded as such was even more motivating than just getting more commissions. It's dog eat dog but for better or worse it works.

Re:My Experience at Apple by laurent92 on Saturday January 02, 2021 @03:26AM (#25611292)
> survival of the fittest

I often hear that about capitalism, but then the caricatural opposite is the survival of the unfit. It is quite visible when swathes of our economy that are not put on any kind of competitiveness (the DMV) end up dropping standards beyond bottom.

We need a balance in between, and we are living in this balance: We are not on either extreme side of this spectrum, the reality is more mild than all-or-nothing, and the non-fittest can still work for a less performing company and be happy with their life. It is just the temptation of big corporations with big incentives that makes some engineers too eager to work for a bad company.

Re:My Experience at Apple by ako on Saturday January 02, 2021 @04:14AM (#25611432)
Because often time to market is more important that R&D costs or tech debt for the success of a company. If you win the market, the profits will compensate for the additional R&D costs, and you can release increments to address the tech debt. Customers actually appreciate this, as they are constantly looking for better, newer versions of the product.

Time to market trumps everything.

Re:My Experience at Apple by yjftsjthsd-h on Saturday January 02, 2021 @12:14AM (#25610585)
The unfortunate thing is that if not for the social/political side, this would be a good approach. I would be happy to be on one of many teams doing parallel implementations if at the end one codebase won but no people lost.