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Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by bartread on Saturday December 26, 2020 @02:05PM (#25545558)
> 1. Keep your cat indoors.

I don't know. I've been considering pets for several months since I'm now spending so much time at home and, as for many people looking for some at home companionship, it comes down to dog or cat.

I've read a reasonable amount of material that suggests that if your cat is kept indoors it's a lot more likely to be unhappy. So if you must own a cat then keeping it indoors may not be the best strategy for the cat. On the other hand, the point about environmental impact of cats - killing of birds and other small animals - might be a really good argument against having cat full stop. If you can't keep it in a way that ensures its welfare whilst also ensuring that it doesn't cause havoc amongst the local wildlife, maybe don't get one at all.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by leetcrew on Saturday December 26, 2020 @02:42PM (#25545873)
> If you can't keep it in a way that ensures its welfare whilst also ensuring that it doesn't cause havoc amongst the local wildlife, maybe don't get one at all.

I'm glad that you're taking the time to think through the responsibility that comes with getting a pet, but I think you are coming close to letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here. just keep in mind that there are already more cats than homes willing to take them in (almost a million shelter cats are euthanized each year in the US alone). if we're talking adoption (and we really should be; deliberately breeding cats for sale is part of the problem, imo), you don't need to offer a perfect life for your prospective pet. you just need to offer a life that is worth living at all.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by poulsbohemian on Saturday December 26, 2020 @03:56PM (#25546408)
> I think you are coming close to letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here.

Completely agree here. We have four cats plus foster regularly... the catio definitely created net positive happiness, but the key is really just the elimination of boredom. Cats need stimulation just like people. Some toys, a tower, a good window - just keep on top of their needs and they will be happy

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by tayo42 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @03:56PM (#25546407)
My likely unpopular opinion, humans shouldn't have pets any more, i think its an overall net negative driven by peoples selfish need to take care of a thing, be loved and have attention.

Dogs are particularly bad. off leash owners cant control them, we have kill shelters, breeding for obscene prices, dog shit being left all over, dog fighting. Then people just don't know how to take care of them. I had a neighbor that left their dog outside for hours barking. such a nuisance for no reason, and that dog must have been living a miserable life. we keep breeding chihuahuas that no one wants, pitbulls that can't be adopted, and some of these pure breeds like bulldogs are just miserable, other pure breeds have health issues.

Cats we're already talking about.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by bumby on Saturday December 26, 2020 @04:06PM (#25546458)
The main counter argument I usually hear when this is brought up is that many of these animals have been bred for hundreds or thousands of years to be dependent on humans.

To your point about kill shelters, I think the humane society has largely helped fixed this. There was an article on HN this week that claimed shelter killings was reduced from 20% down to 2% based on the efforts of the humane society since the 1970s.

I may be biased as a dog lover, but most of your arguments seem to be based on bad owners. If we can stop bad ownership we should do so but let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. I don’t think bad parenting existing should be an excuse for abstaining from having children either, unless we regress to a misanthropic world view.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by hunter-gatherer on Saturday December 26, 2020 @04:24PM (#25546558)
Thanks for this. In college I worked at the Humane Society and helped with the dogs. Very hard work. After working there I realized how most "breeders" are just random blokes with an AKC pure bread who get some dogs together. Some real breeders who monitor trace genetics and try to make the breed better exist, but these dogs usually cost a lot of money, and have specific purposes and customers. Sometimes I wonder if dog ownership should require a license and semi hefty fee (make it more a kin to adoption). But I am not sure...

Disclaimer: I have a dog.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by tayo42 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @04:32PM (#25546604)
Yeah most problems do stem from bad owners. But idk how to enforce good dog and cat ownership? At least with kids we have cps even if it isn't perfect and if a crappy kids grows up into a terrible adult we have law enforcement.

But what can you do about terrible owners? Are we going to take dogs away from owners that don't clean up poop or how do you handle communities that don't think their dog needs a leash.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by bumby on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:25AM (#25551225)
Most municipalities already have laws against this. Hell, where I live there’s a law that can escalate to a 3rd degree felony if your dog looks like it can get out of its fence. What I suspect is an unsatisfying answer for you is that they aren’t enforced because they really aren’t a priority.

That’s unfortunately a part of living in a society. We can’t always agree on what priorities are worth our limited resources. We’ve generally agreed children are a priority and choose to enforce those laws more often. For every person annoyed by bad dog owners, there’s somebody who annoyed by laws not being enforced against noise pollution, poorly parked cars, yard maintenance etc etc. My only suggestion is to get engaged to try and get them enforced if you feel it’s a major problem

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by echelon on Saturday December 26, 2020 @04:54PM (#25546736)
> But idk how to enforce good dog and cat ownership?

We have laws against animal abuse. Some of these laws have strong teeth and can put abusers behind bars for years.

I have two dogs, and they're both incredibly happy. They enrich my life, and I do the same to theirs'. I don't want the state telling me I can't have dogs. That's a kind of liberal fascism that goes against the grain of this country's ethos.

There are dogs suffering in shelters, but there is suffering all around, everywhere you look. Orphan children, homeless people, cancer. If you start passing laws against everything, we'll wind up living in a bubble.

Find negative externalities and tax them if you want a better way of dealing with problems. Don't ban dog ownership.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by bobsil1 on Sunday December 27, 2020 @01:07AM (#25549229)
Let the domesticated variants die out, wolves will continue.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by Jon_Lowtek on Saturday December 26, 2020 @04:57PM (#25546753)
I highly disagree: humanity has co-evolved with animals and living together with them has always been normal. Reducing it to some "selfish need" is a cynical generalization. Denying pets will not improve the lives of these creatures, it will close their niche and pave the way for the extinction of their species. After millennia of living with them, that would be the ultimate betrayal of our most loyal friends and allies. We can already see that with horses: they are no longer useful and their numbers are dropping fast.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by specialist on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:17AM (#25551576)
One wild theory is that dogs domesticated us. I could believe that.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by leetcrew on Saturday December 26, 2020 @04:07PM (#25546470)
to an extent I kinda agree. I definitely don't think people should deliberately breed animals as pets. but we already have an unnaturally large population of cats and dogs and we have not been entirely successful at preventing them from reproducing on their own. just leaving them be is not an option, as that would devastate the prey population. if the alternative is euthanizing the majority of cats and dogs that currently exist, I don't think we have to feel bad as individuals about keeping a few in our homes.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by specialist on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:16AM (#25551567)
Absolutely agree. Especially in the aggregate.

And I still got a dog. Right before some unplanned surgeries. Now, I also totally believe the claimed personal health benefits. Can't stay in bed when the puppy needs to be walked. This dog probably saved my life.

We spend a lot of time at the dog park, so I see the cream of the dog owners. I try to not think too much about all the other dogs who aren't as lucky. I'll just start crying.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by posguy on Saturday December 26, 2020 @02:30PM (#25545776)
If you have previously let your cat outdoors on a regular basis, it will likely be unhappy if you stop letting it go outdoors.

Outdoor cats get in fights with other cats, spread disease via their waste, kill birds and wildlife. Neighbors also can mistake your cat for a feral one and call animal control or trap your cat: https://www.humanesociety.org/sites/default/files/docs/carin...

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by treeman79 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @03:18PM (#25546157)
We made it almost a year before our rescue got outside. He was instantly hooked. Would hide for hours under something near door. Bolt the moment it was open.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by tomcam on Saturday December 26, 2020 @03:53PM (#25546381)
Seems logical. They are wide roaming predators stuck indoors. If I lived in a box my entire life and then got to go outside just once, my preferences might change dramatically.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by jjtheblunt on Saturday December 26, 2020 @02:34PM (#25545805)
We have 3 cats, and only one has any interest in prowling the yard, and we watch her like a hawk, only let her outside with us.

The other two (one born feral, one in a shelter) have zero interest in stalking birds. They're not lazy, just don't care about stalking birds, are more "dog-like" perhaps.

Point is, it's a proper subset of cats wreaking mayhem, and they have very varied personalities, which I offer as another datapoint.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by adzm on Saturday December 26, 2020 @04:12PM (#25546489)
It is absolutely a subset. I've had many cats who go outdoors and only one really paid any attention to birds at all. They seem to be much more interested in rodents like shrews and voles. This is only my personal experience though, but I really would love to see further study on this, since I have bird feeders and a ton of birds in my yard. I'm also curious how it might be different in urban vs suburban and rural situations.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by cm2012 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @05:16PM (#25546866)
I have 7 cats now and have had dozens of cats since I was a kid. Cats don't give a fuck about being outside if they've never been there. Now, trying to make an adult outdoor cat into an indoor cat is hellish. But if kept indoors from a young age they are quite happy.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by Brian_K_White on Saturday December 26, 2020 @06:33PM (#25547351)
Or they are quite warped.

Did it ever tell you it was happy?

And do you have a substantial body of conversations with other cats to be able to analyse so you can tell when one claiming to be happy is instead stunted and warped and brainwashed into declaring it's love for it's cult leader?

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by treeman79 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @03:15PM (#25546133)
Cat was constantly sneaking out. Cat is much loved throughout neighborhood. Got really good at hunting. To the point a neighbor started shooting at it.

We finally got good at keeping the cat inside. Cat became super depressed.

Got a second cat. second cat peed in every laundry basket and bed in the house in a couple of days. Oh and first cat hated second cat.

Things have calmed down, and cats are happy, and we now have a gate to bedrooms.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by abacadaba on Saturday December 26, 2020 @03:59PM (#25546427)
Leash training is an option.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by pstuart on Saturday December 26, 2020 @05:16PM (#25546865)
And if you are going to have a cat, get 2 so they have companionship.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by nadezhda18 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @11:31PM (#25548839)
or hate each other...
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by pstuart on Sunday December 27, 2020 @04:05PM (#25554246)
misery does love company after all