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Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by nine_k on Friday December 25, 2020 @06:24PM (#25539940)
Again I remind about the idea of exponential patents: the holder has to pay every year twice as much as last year.

If the patent is protecting some business's hockey-stick growth, it's worth the fee, so it fulfills the original purpose of patents, that is, avoiding trade secrets while protecting cash-cow inventions for a limited time.

But sitting on a patent becomes prohibitively expensive soon enough even for a large company.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by ardy42 on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:36PM (#25541412)
> If the patent is protecting some business's hockey-stick growth, it's worth the fee, so it fulfills the original purpose of patents, that is, avoiding trade secrets while protecting cash-cow inventions for a limited time.

Wasn't the original purpose of patents not to protect big business's hockey-stick grown, but to allow small inventors to capitalize on their inventions (and not have them shamelessly ripped off by some big business). I think the other original purpose was to make sure inventions would eventually become publicized and exploitable by all.

That exponential patents idea seems like it would render patent protection prohibitively expensive for all except maybe the rich or inventors unusually well-position to quickly capitalize on their invention. The little guy who takes ten years to get his business off the ground is out of luck.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by chx on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:40AM (#25541680)
My experience with the little guy and patents are second hand: my uncle is the literal bearded guy tinkering in his garage... until he invented a new sprinkler head which he promp tly patented. This was a massive win for everyone involved: he didn't need to raise enough capital to build a factory, on the other hand the factory who eventually bought it became one of the world leaders in the field and sold many millions of it without fronting the cost for the R&D process. So yes, sometimes the patent system works.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by cft on Saturday December 26, 2020 @06:11AM (#25542705)
The problem is that some areas of technology are now completely outside of the little guy's domain. Biotech and even electronics patents now require large r&d budgets, otherwise they're obvious and thus not innovative. In other words, a lone inventor in those areas without a serious R&D budget probably means a patent troll. I think in these areas (unlike mechanical engineering) patents should become exponential. As a reform, it would be more palpable to change the fee schedule depending on the area of the patent.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by NetOpWibby on Saturday December 26, 2020 @03:37AM (#25542182)
What’s your uncle doing now? Still inventing?
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by chx on Sunday December 27, 2020 @12:21AM (#25549063)
He is mostly retired, dabbling in some coding. Inbetween he rode the solar wave, had a successful solar installation company, with two more patents which of course were nowhere near as successful.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by ZeroGravitas on Saturday December 26, 2020 @04:33PM (#25546606)
The original purpose was to make friends of the king rich by allowing only them to tax the sale of salt or whatever and using his army to kill anyone who didn't like that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_patent

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by fulafel on Sunday December 27, 2020 @11:30AM (#25552090)
The original purpose of patents was dealing out monopoly rights to various fields of business to domedtic groups well connected to the crown.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by nine_k on Sunday December 27, 2020 @11:31PM (#25556690)
Indeed, that's the point. Either you make your patent make money for you, or sell it. Otherwise, you let your exclusive rights go.

A ton of patented stuff is regularly reinvented by people. In many fields, key ideas are so well-understood by practitioners that who patents them first is mostly a game of chance.

There's no point to allow someone (usually a company that does nothing but sits on patents) to do nothing while blocking everyone else from independently reinventing and implementing it. It is especially spearheaded against companies which buy and then bury an idea to preserve their incumbent status for 25 years more.

A monopoly is a bad thing. Sometimes it's a lesser evil, but most often it's not.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by visarga on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:42AM (#25541685)
The keyword here is "limited" time, ideally more limited than it is now for inventions that don't take off fast enough. Maybe the original inventor doesn't have the skills to perfect it and is just sitting on the patent.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by Retric on Saturday December 26, 2020 @05:19AM (#25542519)
In theory licensing patents solves this problem. If the original inventor doesn’t license or sell the product then owning the patent is literally worthless. Unfortunately, that requires a skilled patent office to reject trivial patents, but not minor but ingenious improvements. Which is in practice an unrealistic standard.

However, I think the balance generally works in the other direction. 20 years feels excessive, but it’s arguably fast enough that taking something from a lab to mass production often eats up 1/2 the time. Further, many patents that are obvious like asteroid mining are going to expire long before their practical. On the other hand simply waiting out the clock to manufacture something means being really behind, thus pushing licensing.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by labawi on Saturday December 26, 2020 @07:06AM (#25542954)
> If the original inventor doesn’t license or sell the product then owning the patent is literally worthless.

That's only true for the public.

A company may not with to license patent use under truly fair conditions, because it would compete with their products using a different technology, they may not with to license to potential competitors, and/or small businesses (fairly).

Alternatively, holder may be using the patent, but choose that their current cash-cow is good-enough so why support competition and innovation, when they can just bump it up slightly every 10 years or so.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by Retric on Saturday December 26, 2020 @08:04AM (#25543193)
> it would compete with their products

Defensive and overly broad patents are definitely a thing, but the intent is to give a monopoly for a limited time. Locking down alternatives not currently in production that are obvious workarounds is kind of a requirement for most patents to be meaningful. The issue is when a company in effect owns an industry and then keeps submitting obvious patents. But, here the problem is with obvious patents being granted.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by fossuser on Friday December 25, 2020 @06:34PM (#25540008)
I think this would just move people back to trade secrets.

That said, I think patents could be given out less often when the operation of the device is clear or can easily be discovered by the public without a patent.

E-Ink screens released without a patent kept under 'trade secret' wouldn't have mattered, the idea would have been implemented elsewhere.

I suppose you could argue that without exclusive rights the original inventor wouldn't have bothered to create it at all - in that case there's probably a better middle ground of something less than 20yrs. 5yrs? 2yrs? First $1million in profit?

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by cycomanic on Saturday December 26, 2020 @09:08AM (#25543534)
But it's still trade secrets. I can tell you most companies will not patent the processes etc. that are crucial to their business, because they know that the knowledge in those is worth much more than the patents would be (it gives them a big a competitive advantage). Instead they patent the ideas behind their products in an as broad as possible manner so that nobody can actually know what they actually do and that it covers nearly every possible variations.

That's why with the current system we are left with the worst of both worlds.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by fastball on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:05PM (#25541276)
Is moving back to "trade secrets" really a bad thing?

Is there any evidence that the introduction of patents actually encouraged innovation?

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by fossuser on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:38AM (#25541668)
The purpose was to both incentivize invention, but also require detailed specs of that invention to be given to the public. In exchange the inventor gets exclusive rights for a limited time.

If trade secrets cause knowledge to be held from the public and then ultimately lost that would be worse.

Whether that’s still relevant today I don’t know. In cases with massive research R&D like drug discovery they still seem really important.

In that case a trade secret wouldn’t be enough to justify up front investment if the drug can be copied and sold as a generic for cheap along side it.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by fastball on Saturday December 26, 2020 @02:55AM (#25542065)
I'm not sure I understand how a patent system would ever encourage knowledge to be made public in a way that wouldn't have already happened.

Even with a patent system, if your innovation is not easily reverse-engineered then you have no reason to patent it. If you invention is easily reverse-engineered, then the knowledge becomes public effectively as soon as you release your innovation, and that is when a patent is most useful.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by tempestn on Saturday December 26, 2020 @04:47AM (#25542408)
Even if your invention isn't easily reverse engineered, it could still be re-engineered by others once you've demonstrated the concept and the market. Trade secrets aren't guarantees.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by fastball on Saturday December 26, 2020 @07:34PM (#25547685)
Right but that's my point. I don't think there is clear evidence that it encourages innovation, and if the technology can be re-engineered from the end result then you are not really helping society with a patent system. If it cannot be re-engineered from the end product, I don't see a reason anyone would use the patent system.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by tempestn on Saturday December 26, 2020 @11:43PM (#25548907)
Gotcha, but I guess the counter would be that you can't really know what someone else will be able to figure out. Some groundbreaking historical discoveries were made in quick succession by multiple people working independently; others weren't.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by brlewis on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @10:05AM (#25570335)
I think the system was not designed so much for end products, but for industrial technology that produced end products.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by ekianjo on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:25PM (#25541370)
> I think this would just move people back to trade secrets.

You make it sounds like trade secrets don't exist anymore.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by fossuser on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:40AM (#25541678)
They do, but there’s a trade off. If you go the trade secret route you don’t have exclusive rights.

If someone else figures out how to build or reverse engineer your invention they can do so. If an employee leaks the secret you can go after them, but can’t stop others from using it.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by jopsen on Saturday December 26, 2020 @05:56AM (#25542647)
In practice aren't many patents so vague/broad that they are unhelpful in deciphering how to build something?

And don't companies keep various details about how to produce something secret.

It seems to me, that many companies in effect have it both ways.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by ekianjo on Sunday December 27, 2020 @11:00AM (#25551849)
> If you go the trade secret route you don’t have exclusive rights.

Most patents don't describe in full how the sausage is done. That's been well known for decades now, in various disciplines.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by userbinator on Saturday December 26, 2020 @04:24AM (#25542335)
In case of eInk, it's both patents and trade secrets...
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by amelius on Friday December 25, 2020 @07:00PM (#25540153)
I think the major flaw in patents is that they provide a monopoly on the technology (for a limited time). Monopolies are bad. Let the USPTO determine a fair price for a technology. That way the company can decide if they keep the technology secret, and the USPTO can decide if they think the technology is too important for society and it needs to be open (and thus increase the price). Other companies can then get a license on the technology for that price. And no companies can be denied access to a technology (like the current situation).
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by contingencies on Friday December 25, 2020 @08:23PM (#25540556)
Ideas are global though, and the patent system isn't.

In order to turn a patent in to a literal recipe for a competing product all you have to do is step out of a registered jurisdiction.

So people who actually come up with something meaningful have the financial burden of registering in numerous major jurisdictions at a minimum.

However, each comes with its own quirks, costs, and processes, some of which can be slower (eg. Japan) or qualitatively different (actual novelty checks performed vs. only cursory inspection) and thus vary from verging on legally dubious (more like "option to expend lawyers on creating problems for competitors in the future" than actual patent) to total lockdown.

It's a mess. Mostly it only keeps patent lawyers in business. We need to get rid of it.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by mschuster91 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @07:15AM (#25542991)
> In order to turn a patent in to a literal recipe for a competing product all you have to do is step out of a registered jurisdiction.

When you have a registered patent in the USA and the EU, there is no real alternative market for competition except India and China - because both the US and EU will reject any import of a patent-violating product.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by contingencies on Saturday December 26, 2020 @09:15AM (#25543582)
Well those are some big generalizations. Objectively, USA and EU are neither the largest and certainly not the fastest growing markets for many products. In other words: even if that is true - who cares? Also, traditionally Japan is considered a major developed world market by patent law.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by rektide on Friday December 25, 2020 @09:09PM (#25540773)
weird juxtaposition of arguments. you start by arguing that one system's rules aren't relevant when there are many jurisdictions.

then you talk about each jurisdiction having very unique flavors & characters to them.

the favt that the uspto governs such a vast share of products-sold carries a lot of weight. I tend to think increasing the cost of patents is a silly idea, because right now they cost nearly nothing if you file & do the reject/re-apply dance yourself (and know how to). unless we the people are going to start charging billions for good ideas being monopolized, I tend towards a fair reasonable & non-discriminatory access model for all ideas, with a depreciating over time scale. i'd rather open the closed system than try to find the right price for it. but either way, I think the uspto & Congress has a lot of power to fix this practically free hand out that ongoingly locks down this world & obstructs progress time & time again.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by contingencies on Friday December 25, 2020 @09:24PM (#25540828)
If we begin with the unspoken assumption that the system is supposed to be useful, then it's effectively dead in the water because ideas aren't under national jurisdictions. I think this "weird juxtaposition" is the innate problem with the status quo.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by WalterBright on Friday December 25, 2020 @07:03PM (#25540174)
Nobody, and certainly not the USPTO, is able to determine the future value of any patent.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by amelius on Friday December 25, 2020 @07:14PM (#25540230)
Nobody can predict the future value of pretty much anything, yet trading happens all the time.

To improve the predictive capability of the USPTO, they could host a bidding process in which other companies can participate.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by ptero on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:15PM (#25541324)
I have pretty low faith in USPTO (or, to be fair, any other organization), making reasonable predictions on the technology value. And even if they did, I think inventors would feel low-balled: "those idiots did not understand the revolutionary benefit of my invention", etc.

Rather than trying to estimate the value of the idea we could drastically reduce the time for patent protection. Shortening protection period to 2-5 years should still encourage inventions, but would discourage early carpet-bombing filings (which scare many inventors away) as well as move successful inventions into public domain while they are still relevant. My 2c.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by jbay808 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:47AM (#25541894)
5 years is plenty of time for patenting some clever software trick that took a minute to think up and a week to implement (eg. minigames in loading screens). But some inventions take years or even decades of research (eg in materials science) and, even after being invented, may take a year or more to spool up the production line, let alone the procurement process.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by Leherenn on Saturday December 26, 2020 @05:26AM (#25542540)
Would it make sense to have the patent office choose the patent length between say 2 to 20 years?

Estimating the value seems pretty much impossible, but estimating a length seems more reasonable. Clever software trick, quick to invent, easy to capitalise -> 2 years. Ground breaking new drug/material with slow market deployment -> 20 years.

There's still some subjectivity involved (but that's already the case with the current patent system), but you could try to base it on some objective metrics.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by iguy on Saturday December 26, 2020 @10:41AM (#25544047)
Or perhaps it could be a fixed duration per field, somehow, so that you know before filing what you will get.

It would be easy to discriminate between 20 years for drugs vs. 5 for anything software, but I guess it's tricky to decide whether something like e-paper should count as fast-moving consumer-facing tech or hard-won physics/chemistry knowledge.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by ptero on Saturday December 26, 2020 @06:53AM (#25542893)
If something is in research phase it should not be patented yet. And once invented, a 5-year protection still gives the inventor a 5-year advantage. If it cannot leverage it effectively, sorry but too bad.

No method is perfect, but I think that in most cases a 5-year protection is enough to encourage invention.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by swiftcoder on Saturday December 26, 2020 @08:01AM (#25543178)
Many products contain hundreds of distinct "inventions" in the patent sense. One can't necessarily hold off on registering a patent for an individual invention for 5 years while the rest of the product is developed, as you'd risk a competitor inventing the same before you have patent protections.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by ptero on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:34PM (#25544882)
Patent does not protect a product, but a specific technology. If 1 technology out of 10 in a product is under patent protection the competitor (and the public) cannot copy the product as is, but is welcome to use any expired technologies any way it sees fit.

In general, it is a business decision on whether to patent a technology that it is not ready for the production: the risk of not making a product in 5 years vs the risk of competitor getting there first. It is not perfect, but I would prefer that inventions that the owner wants to own (and suppress competition for) but cannot commercialize in 5 years enter public domain. My 2c.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by finnh on Friday December 25, 2020 @08:05PM (#25540472)
That's kind of what the private market already does, without the PTO's involvement. If people think your patent has value, they can license or or buy rights to it.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by amelius on Friday December 25, 2020 @08:08PM (#25540484)
No, because if the patent applicant keeps the technology secret, there is no patent. Meaning the road is open for other companies to invent the same technology.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by nine_k on Friday December 25, 2020 @08:40PM (#25540653)
The point of patents is that the invention should be described, and patents are publicly accessible. This is what allows you to discuss infringements in a regular court.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by justinclift on Friday December 25, 2020 @10:36PM (#25541182)
Just to point out, there do seem to be certain (niche) fields where Patents can be kept "secret". eg National Security, Nuclear, (etc) type of things:

https://slate.com/technology/2018/05/the-thousands-of-secret...

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by rektide on Friday December 25, 2020 @09:03PM (#25540760)
it being impossible to get 100% right doesn't mean we must be afraid to try to assess merit.

perhaps a fair value assessment might include some % of revenue or profit, to self adjust?

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by WalterBright on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:00AM (#25541507)
It's not likely to be remotely correct. The only people who have a chance at it are those who are willing to risk their own money on it.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by godelski on Saturday December 26, 2020 @03:50AM (#25542220)
I want to nitpick. Monopolies aren't bad. Monopolies tend to be dangerous because they aren't self regulating and they can easily extort consumers. But monopolies can also be very useful to consumers if they are acting in their interests, particularly in goods that have network effects (where the number of participants directly increases the product's utility or makes it cheaper. As opposed to a S curve). Bell labs existed because the government gave Bell a monopoly over telephone networks so there wouldn't be hundreds of wires everywhere (literal network), but the lab was part of the deal.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by dman on Friday December 25, 2020 @08:35PM (#25540624)
Why would the USPTO not rig things in favor of US companies by underpricing the value of patents from foreign companies?
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by paxys on Friday December 25, 2020 @08:16PM (#25540527)
Compulsory licensing is already a thing in many countries. It's mostly used in drug manufacturing.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by olliej on Friday December 25, 2020 @08:17PM (#25540534)
Copyright also provides a monopoly, that’s the whole point, if it didn’t then the GPL, etc would be useless.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by erhk on Friday December 25, 2020 @08:22PM (#25540551)
Why should I invest in R&D then
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by visarga on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:49AM (#25541710)
That's right, the greedy approach would free a patent now to unlock a technology, but what do we do about not freezing creativity over the next decade?
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by fredguth on Saturday December 26, 2020 @05:20AM (#25542522)
I am no fan of the patent system, but what you propose is worse. Companies can get a license but by a price defined by the market. Giving this power to some burocrat seems odd.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by giancarlostoro on Friday December 25, 2020 @10:55PM (#25541250)
If you merely double the cost though it removes the human element for error.
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by IlliOnato on Friday December 25, 2020 @09:40PM (#25540904)
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

H. L. Mencken

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by ekianjo on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:24PM (#25541367)
> Again I remind about the idea of exponential patents: the holder has to pay every year twice as much as last year.

Would not be very effective for companies like Amazon or Apple which have billions to play with. Rather a 5 years maximum duration would be more effective across the board instead of the ridiculous 20 years we have to live with.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by enraged_camel on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:45PM (#25541454)
>> Would not be very effective for companies like Amazon or Apple which have billions to play with.

On the contrary, such companies tend to have tons of patents. Apple for example has over 70,000 patents for the 2009-18 period alone. Exponential fees would quickly add up to a substantial amount of money on such a massive portfolio.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by Ekaros on Saturday December 26, 2020 @05:56AM (#25542649)
Hmm, maybe also have a them exponent by number of patents. So if you are small player you can handle having the core ones. If you are just throwing stuff at wall and see what sticks it gets really expensive. Could also force companies to focus on those patents that actually stand or are important for them...
Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by andromeduck on Saturday December 26, 2020 @06:37AM (#25542806)
I think having a mandatory auction + proceeds rebate system is better and then whoever holds it can write indefinite contracts/licences.

For example, imagine you get 100% rebate of auction proceeds untill year 5, then it drops 1% per year:

- at year 5 it's nearly impossible to do a hostile accquisition because you have a 100x advantage and only lose 1% of highest or second highest if it's a blind auctio.

- by year 25 you have to pony up up to 20% FMV per year just to retain monopoly. And only have a 5x advantage vs a competing bidder.

- the remaining fraction if paid back to consumers as basic income, can be thought of as a

- losing an auction doesn't hurt your buisness operation if you wrote yourself a perpetual contract

- auction loser is compensated less every year the contract ages and therefore has strong incentive to sublicense

- government and trade groups can buy out key patents at fair prices

- defensive patent pools still work, trolling is riskier

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by runeks on Saturday December 26, 2020 @11:54AM (#25544590)
Why would it help to put an arbitrarily high price on a monopoly?

In the case where the profit (from owning the patent) is less than the cost of the patent it will be equivalent to the absence of patents. In the case where the profit is higher than the patent cost it’s still a company bribing the government for monopoly rights.

Unless the profits made by the government from patents is used to put a discount on the retail price of the product for which the patent is held. But even this is probably worse than free competition.

Re:Dasung just released a 25 inch eInk monitor by forgotmysn on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:08PM (#25541290)
thats still not a good enough reason to maintain a failing system.