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Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by geocrasher on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:01PM (#25533527)
It is interesting that so much of history isn't what we think it is. For example, who broke the sound barrier first? Of course, it was Chuck Yeager in Glamorous Glennis, the rocket powered Bell X-1 named after his wife. Or was it?

The book "Aces Wild" [1] says that it was unofficially broken before that in an XP-86 (The experimental F-86, a jet powered fighter) in a dive, and witnesses on the ground heard sonic booms before Yeager's flight that day. But history favors the hero's, and in this case, the science: We know 100% for sure, because of science, that Yeager officially broke the sound barrier first.

It is quite possible that the F-86 test pilots who stuck their planes in a dive likely did it first. It is well documented that the F-86 was capable of Mach 1 in a dive. Even so, that's not what the history books say, so that's not what we teach kids in school. I suspect it'll always be the same with the F14 computer vs the Intel 4004.

[1] https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/mach-1-whoduni...

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by breput on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:25PM (#25533645)
There were many cases of pilots breaking the sound barrier in a dive prior to the X-1, even during World War II, and even some of them living to tell the tale. That was never in dispute.

The point of the X-1 has always been that it was the first human piloted plane that broke the sound barrier in level, controlled, and repeatable flight.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by na85 on Thursday December 24, 2020 @10:31PM (#25533944)
>There were many cases of pilots breaking the sound barrier in a dive prior to the X-1, even during World War II,

Aerospace engineer and amateur WWII historian here: I'm not aware of any credible claims from that era. The only WWII-era claims to have broken the sound barrier (by piloted craft) I've seen can be attributed to poor pitot tube design which gives erroneously high indicated airspeed readings when the ram pressure gets high enough.

A reconnaissance Spitfire I believe is what got closest, at something like .9 of Mach measured by a fancy pitot system at the RAF test establishment.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by marcodiego on Friday December 25, 2020 @12:13AM (#25534373)
Aerospace engineer and amateur historian... nice! Would you enlighten us about the main problems with Hans Guido Mutke claims?
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by na85 on Friday December 25, 2020 @01:03AM (#25534611)
It basically boils down to the fact that machmeters hadn't been invented yet, because the physics of supersonic flight wasn't sufficiently understood back then.

Shock waves develop inside the pitot tube under certain conditions, and that causes a spike (or sometimes a drop) in pressure which is interpreted by the instrument as a corresponding rise or drop in airspeed.

Edit: as for the 262 claim itself it was pretty handily debunked in a post-war NACA technical note. If you dig around on the NTRS you can find it.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by geocrasher on Friday December 25, 2020 @12:29AM (#25534434)
From Wikipedia: " Compressibility in pitot tubes of the time often resulted in exaggerated speed readings near the speed of sound, particularly in German equipment, which was adversely affected by supply shortages as the war progressed"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Guido_Mutke

In other words, it's the same problem that the piston-engined aircraft of the time had: Anomalous readings at high speed.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by redis_mlc on Thursday December 24, 2020 @10:53PM (#25534041)
As usual, the Germans were first, with the V-2 reaching Mach 5 in the 1940's, which was to an extent controllable (they landed in England.)

For an airplane to reach Mach 1, this mainly requires thin wings and enough power/dive. To control it, you need a flying tail, and swept wings and "waisting" the fuselage reduces the amount of power needed.

So almost all of the planes in WW2 were "too thick" and incapable of supersonic flight, though could have exceeded Mach 1 with modified wings, tail and in a dive.

The US P-80 (1945) and F-86 (1949) jets had underpowered engines, in the sense that all early jet engines had limited power.

However the F-86 had swept wings, and later versions of the F-86 had a flying tail, so if you pointed it at the ground, you could get a sonic boom without losing control.

Source: I study aerodynamics.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by navinojha on Friday December 25, 2020 @02:34AM (#25534931)
tuyiy
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by saltyshake on Thursday December 24, 2020 @11:26PM (#25534184)
Or running speed records. I heard many stories from veterans that during ranher training they did numbers better than the official Olympic records.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by gameswithgo on Thursday December 24, 2020 @11:39PM (#25534239)
rangers aren’t above being delusional
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by hapless on Friday December 25, 2020 @02:39AM (#25534952)
The X-1 could break the sound barrier in level flight. That is to say, it could move across geography, in a measurable way, faster than the speed of sound.

Creating a sonic boom in a deep and dangerous dive is an interesting quirk in a fighter, but it doesn’t set new speed records that would interest the general population.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by msla on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @04:42PM (#25586510)
> Or was it?

Yes, it was. Betteridge's Law strikes again.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by hapless on Friday December 25, 2020 @01:56AM (#25534797)
Bullshit.

This is a super cool, and very personal, story about a massive advance in VLSI avionics. Compare it to the System 4pi, or the value-based avionics of the Soviets. There were lots of other approaches, and this one was more sophisticated and yet less expensive. It’s a great achievement!

However, it is not, in any way, a story about a microprocessor.

The only interesting thing about the Intel 4004 is that it fit general purpose computing into a single chip package. Many people and companies did interesting things long before the 4004 with a relatively small number of components, but that number was not one.

The simple existence of a chip like the 4004, as a commercial product, altered an entire industry, globally. It gave rise to the Intel 8000 series, the Motorola 6800 series, and hundreds of clones.

Ultimately, the revolution kicked off by the microprocessor gave us microcomputers, the rise of CMOS, and, essentially, the end of all other architectures for computing.

This story is super cool but some editor fucked up real bad with the headline. This wonderful early application of VLSI and software in avionics is amazing, but it isn’t connected to the story of the “microprocessor,” as a thing.

P.S. even if you accept the premise that an ALU on a chip is a cool advance, it didn’t go anywhere! No one could buy the damn chip. Nothing ever came of it outside avionics contractors.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by pinewurst on Friday December 25, 2020 @06:37PM (#25540033)
Ditto - and if we’re talking chipsets, both Four Phase and Viatron had much more general offerings pre-1970.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by kreelman on Thursday December 24, 2020 @08:34PM (#25533401)
The personal side of this story is quite touching too. Two brothers, Bill and Ray, develop a microprocessor together. One brother Bill, dies. The remaining brother and those who formed the wedding party are the pallbearers at Bill's funeral. Bill's wife remarries, giving birth to the author. an amazing story and so personally written.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by gumby on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:58PM (#25533812)
Note also that her father is a friend and colleague of the two brothers.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by sn_master on Thursday December 24, 2020 @07:04PM (#25532863)
Worth noting, most of the F-14 kills and F-14 Aces belong to the Iranian Air Force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Iranian_aerial_victori...

The US refused to export the TomCat to any other country and they destroyed all remaining TomCats after retiring them to prevent Iran from accessing spare parts, vs just having them parked in bone yards like other fighter jets.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by mhh__ on Thursday December 24, 2020 @07:10PM (#25532900)
You can actually see them taxi-ing around on Bing maps at a few Iranian airbases, they've still got a few left.

https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=5e448196-42ac-41ba-81b8-b7272...

3 of them visible here, in various states of wing sweep.

I read that they want to buy Flankers, but I would assume that western coverage of Iranian military strategy probably isn't particularly accurate.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by LgWoodenBadger on Thursday December 24, 2020 @11:10PM (#25534120)
Well a few were not destroyed since they are currently in museums. The ones I’ve personally seen are in Palm Springs and on the Intrepid in NYC.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by mstade on Friday December 25, 2020 @02:47AM (#25534977)
There's one in Titusville, FL, at the Warbird Air Museum[0] just a few miles from Kennedy Space Center. Well worth a visit for the F-14 alone, it's an awesome sight, but they've also got loads of other great aircraft and knowledgeable staff to help provide insight.

If you're a flight and space geek like me, you'll spend a day or two at KSC and then a full day at the warbird museum. Whenever I find myself in Florida I try to make my way out there, can't recommend it enough!

[0]: https://www.valiantaircommand.com/

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by saltyshake on Thursday December 24, 2020 @11:28PM (#25534196)
Thanks! I am sure those atleast will be under intense security and they probably gutted the important bits.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by jdswain on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:33PM (#25533679)
Ray Holt also went on to design the Jolt computer, a very early 6502 based computer which lead to the SYM-1 (also designed by Ray Holt), and TIM-1, which was more of a kit with a pre-programmed ROM. I built my own TIM-1 this year and have been doing a bit of research into these early 6502 boards. The Jolt computer is perhaps most famous for being used as the microprocessor section in the first Atari 2600 prototypes.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by trasz on Thursday December 24, 2020 @07:44PM (#25533098)
Why do we call it a microprocessor, when it was six chips?
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by myself248 on Friday December 25, 2020 @12:27AM (#25534425)
The processor itself is the chip that has the ALU, since that's what really does the processing. The registers may be on-die with the ALU, or may be in another chip for various reasons, but the ALU would have a bad time without registers, so they're always used together.

Likewise there's usually an interrupt controller of some sort, and a timer, and technically a processor can process without these, but it's not terribly useful in the real world. But because an interrupt controller in particular tends to have quite a few I/O pins, it's often in a separate package from the ALU, and you can pick larger or smaller interrupt controllers (or chain several together) depending on the application. But these are typically designed as a "family", and are always found together.

Atop all that, you generally need some ROM to boot the thing, and probably some glue logic (muxes and decoders) to perform memory mapping, etc. And then main system RAM itself. These are generic enough that they may or may not be considered part of the "family" with the processor.

Previously, the ALU would've been an entire board full of SSI chips, or a whole shelf of modules stuffed with individual discretes. And the register file would be another board, or a shelf thereof. And interrupts and glue would be all over the place, and peripherals getting into the mix... None of those boards was useful without the others, so they were always found together. Putting each of those functions onto a single chip instead of a whole board is what made it "micro", even if it was always found with the rest of its family.

Today, we have a term "microcontroller", for something that integrates the whole shebang: ALU, registers, RAM, ROM, interrupt controller, clock and timer, and I/O peripherals, into a single chip. It does processing, so you could consider it a microprocessor, but it has basically the whole rest of everything in there too (everything but power, typically). The term "microprocessor" does not go as far.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by snoshy on Friday December 25, 2020 @12:58AM (#25534585)
Very informative, thank you.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by nom on Thursday December 24, 2020 @07:58PM (#25533197)
For the same reason we call the PDP-8 a minicomputer and the C64 a microcomputer. It's smaller than what came before it.

Then we realized it will continue to get smaller and after nano it will sound stupid so we stopped

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by msla on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @04:41PM (#25586496)
The C64 was a microcomputer because it was built around a microprocessor, which is a single-chip CPU.

As in, not like what the F-14 had.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by msla on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:03PM (#25533540)
The IEEE apparently agrees:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/silicon-revolution/ch...

> The Intel 4004 was the world’s first microprocessor—a complete general-purpose CPU on a single chip.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by geocrasher on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:58PM (#25533817)
Because it was six chips not six racks
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by DanBC on Thursday December 24, 2020 @07:50PM (#25533140)
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by kens on Thursday December 24, 2020 @10:07PM (#25533860)
No, it was six different chips.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by gumby on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:59PM (#25533819)
What would you call the Apple M1 which has a number of chips in a single package?
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by Synaesthesia on Thursday December 24, 2020 @07:30PM (#25533007)
It's funny when people say things like capitalism created computers and iPhones. No it was the government, primarily the military for decades right up to when they could be marketed, that was the leading researcher in this field.

Pity this was kept secret and only ever saw military use. Sounds like a very advanced processor.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by mhh__ on Thursday December 24, 2020 @07:47PM (#25533118)
The government (usually the military) makes the thing with a basically unlimited space and budget, the private sector let's you buy one. Making an iPhone is not trivial in the slightest, too.

Also, the military (for the most part) pays for these inventions, the actual research and manufacture is usually still done in the private sector. That doesn't have to be the case, but if we take the Soviet Union as an example of an alternate system (Basically state-owned design Bureaus) they could just about keep up with the pace of technological development (and match in limited scope) but their populaces didn't see the "trickle down" technology.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by Synaesthesia on Sunday December 27, 2020 @01:24AM (#25549284)
I once read the big problem with Soviet industry was they focused on heavy industry but not light manufacturing like Co sumer products. The Asian tigers explicitly focused on that.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by ngcc_hk on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:39PM (#25533711)
Therefore they evolve.

Instead of state we have state based capitalism. Instead of innovation by state, we have private firms which can steal from other countries freely as they are not military. And they can produce well as well. And they can go out to sell you things and selective let you in for helping in the copying.

That is Soviet Union 2.0 - china.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by sn_master on Thursday December 24, 2020 @07:37PM (#25533057)
The cold war was the father and mother of the computing industry and science. Most of innovative super computers were designed and sold for the Nuclear Weapons Labs or the Lockheeds of the time.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by tomcam on Thursday December 24, 2020 @08:21PM (#25533326)
> The device was designed by a team at a company called Garrett AiResearch on a subcontract for Grumman, the aircraft manufacturer.

Garrett AiResearch appears to have been a private company

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by mhh__ on Thursday December 24, 2020 @06:46PM (#25532739)
Heatblur's brilliant simulation of the F-14 for DCS World is currently free for the next week or so, worth having a play if you own a flightstick - the level of detail is unbelievable.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by tpmx on Thursday December 24, 2020 @07:38PM (#25533060)
Free to download and "own" "forever" Epic style, or free to experience until the end of the week?
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by mhh__ on Thursday December 24, 2020 @07:41PM (#25533075)
Free to experience until January the 2nd IIRC. It's about $80 dollars or so normally so even it's worth having a go even if you don't take to it.

The Tomcat is an absolute beast, though, so be prepared to be reading an instruction manual just to play a game if you want to go all out.

Also, to anyone who goes on DCS multiplayer for the first time: IFF IFF IFF.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by jki275 on Thursday December 24, 2020 @10:43PM (#25533992)
No kidding on that. The Tomcat is hard to employ effectively, but it's definitely worth trying out even if there's only a few days to do it for free.

Beware though, this addiction leads to things like buying entire hotas setups from companies like Virpil and VKB and that's a very pricey proposition.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by mstade on Friday December 25, 2020 @02:54AM (#25534996)
I have a small room in my apartment where I'm dreaming of installing such a setup. One day... :o)
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by jki275 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @02:04PM (#25584809)
I have a walk in closet I used to store work equipment in. I turned all that back in last week so it's getting turned into my flight sim room next week.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by mstade on Monday January 04, 2021 @10:58AM (#25632945)
I'd love it if you'd reply here with a link to some inspirational photos when you're done!!
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by jki275 on Monday January 04, 2021 @11:49AM (#25633898)
I will -- I'm also working on building some specialized displays -- it's a huge project to get right.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by dtparr on Thursday December 24, 2020 @08:24PM (#25533349)
Now I'm curious. How does DCS handle IFF? Does it just abstract it to some general concept of IFF, or do you actually have to deal with the various modes and such? How does it handle different incompatible countries/generations of IFF?
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by mhh__ on Thursday December 24, 2020 @08:39PM (#25533430)
https://youtu.be/RVthPAIYZlU Better 2 minutes than a wall of text.

In short, increasingly well modelled but ultimately only an abstraction due to some fairly obvious reasons. The JF-17 apparently has the best IFF model in the game but I only started flying it yesterday.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by ngcc_hk on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:51PM (#25533774)
Study level airplane. Not sure 1 week is enough ... sadly miss the 50% discount.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by stoolpigeon on Friday December 25, 2020 @01:52AM (#25534786)
When I was in VF-302 sometimes a reward for enlisted guys who did really well was a little simulator time. They all said just maintaining flight was very difficult and the minute adversaries were added, they were dead.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by sitzkrieg on Thursday December 24, 2020 @07:25PM (#25532974)
awesome, thanks for the heads up. havent had dcs installed in a while and missed this
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by ngcc_hk on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:32PM (#25533671)
When something happened sometimes it happened everywhere around the sane time. It would be odd to have one singularity. But 4004 ... now we know it is not.
Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by Ericson2314 on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:06PM (#25533552)
> hella gnarliest

I'm sorry, but that incorrect usage really jumped out at me.

Great article, though.

Re:The First Microprocessor, the F-14, and Me by geocrasher on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:22PM (#25533625)
Just be glad they didn't say it was "on fleek".