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Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by PragmaticPulp on Thursday December 17, 2020 @03:47PM (#25460197)
I stopped trying to debate open vs. closed software in a business setting long ago. There is a time and place for both, and rational actors will evaluate the tradeoffs given their circumstances.

When people start believing that open source software is inherently superior in every situation, or that ideological purity is the most important consideration, they aren't making decisions in the best interest of the company. Engineers are especially prone to overestimating the downside risks of using closed source software (A long list of what-ifs such as "What if the vendor goes out of business without warning?") and underestimating the downsides of using open source alternatives (Notably, the inability to pick up the phone and have another company's engineers deal with the problem, per your contract). The situation is compounded by engineers who genuinely enjoy tinkering with open source software on the company's dime and, frankly, would prefer to be paid to do so rather than purchase a more efficient closed-source solution.

Of course, there are some situations where open-source software is practically superior to alternatives. I don't claim to suggest otherwise. However, the endless debates about ideological purity and avoiding hypothetical edge cases with 3rd party vendors frequently cloud decision making abilities in a business context.

For personal and open source projects, I'm all-in on free software alternatives. For business purposes, I'll evaluate the available options and try to make the best business decision for the company.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by kelnos on Thursday December 17, 2020 @07:54PM (#25462507)
I think you're still missing the point: the freedom bits are not there for "idealogical purity", they're there because they provide practical benefits: the ability to inspect and modify the program's source code, and to build and run modified versions, without getting anyone's permission to do so. The FSF does believe that there ethical components as well, but you need not subscribe to them to see the benefits of free software.

I think you overestimate how helpful a paid support option is. I've spent time working with the vendor of closed source software to get issues resolved; it's often incredibly painful and time consuming, and meanwhile the business is not able to realize the full benefit of the software they've paid for. Meanwhile, I have never run into an issue in open source software that I wasn't able to fix on my own (absent help/response from upstream) or at least figure out a workaround, often one that would not be possible to figure out without source access. (Note that I'm explicitly ignoring the kind of "fit for purpose" issues that you're never going to resolve, period, whether it's closed or open.)

Adopting open source is not without its own risks, but it does give you many more options than any closed alternative ever will. If your business does not value that difference, then that's fine, as long as you've made that decision with open eyes.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by dividedbyzero on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:27PM (#25462738)
As a poor old 1x dev, I absolutely cannot fix any arbitrary complex issue in any arbitrarily large codebase written in any language at all, using any obscure build tooling, any complex framework, any architecture pattern at all, while not breaking anything else, within a timeframe that doesn't make most commercial support response times look enticing.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by ohazi on Thursday December 17, 2020 @09:06PM (#25462993)
Maybe not, but you can probably write a python script to parse the (open, documented, text-based) file format of an open-source tool and perform some important action that the tool doesn't support. Or maybe someone already wrote a library that parses the file format which lets you jump straight to pulling out the data that you want.

Meanwhile, the closed source tool doesn't support your desired action action either, but their file format is binary/compressed/encrypted/undocumented for nebulous "business reasons," so you end up spending fifteen hours pushing buttons in their GUI instead.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by kelnos on Sunday December 20, 2020 @10:43PM (#25491942)
I suspect you underestimate your ability, but even if you're not, there are many who can. Regardless, fixing a problem in the short term might not mean actually fixing a bug in the upstream source; it might just be reading through the code to figure out how things work so you can implement a workaround outside the code. That might not be possible without the code being open.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by yellowapple on Thursday December 17, 2020 @05:09PM (#25461159)
I think you're downplaying the risks of non-free (or at least non-transparent) software in an enterprise setting, and overplaying the "value" of the vendor being able to provide meaningful assistance.

Speaking from experience: even if a software product is not freely licensed, there is immense value in source code being available and - better yet - modifiable (whether directly or through plugins) when trying to troubleshoot issues with that software or integrate it with other software or adapt it for your business' needs. Further, if your company's finance department is worth its salt, any such customizations and integrations are assets with real value, so even if your company's engineers are "wasting time" tinkering, the company can - and should - still capture this value on the books.

And further speaking from experience: with relatively few exceptions, I've found enterprise software vendors to be pretty much useless in terms of support, and to be more often than not an obstacle to business operations than a value to it when things go wrong. All for a pricetag that doesn't even come close to justifying their meager SLAs (that they'll inevitably weasel their way out of anyway).

The decision to use transparent software is more often than not a decision in the best interests of a company. Transparency is a dependency of trust; without that transparency, you have no real way of knowing whether you can trust your business on it.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by hertzrat on Thursday December 17, 2020 @06:05PM (#25461694)
Another huge benefit is that the foss software won’t just disappear if the company has a bad quarter. If the maintainers or developers leave the project, in a pinch you can make a bug fix yourself or at least legally preserve a copy of it. It’s a major risk that an offering you depend on might change or disappear if it isn’t foss
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by aidenn0 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @06:08PM (#25461716)
Many companies will agree to escrow their code (at the customer's expense) against the risk of them going out of business. I've never actually seen it happen, but it definitely has been offered when that concern was raised, and once the customer has to pay for it, they immediately say not to bother.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by hertzrat on Thursday December 17, 2020 @06:15PM (#25461781)
Imagine it’s a web or iOS or Android app. Imagine that you put 10,000 cards into supermemo.com and they took it down because of some legal dispute with another company. I have about 15k cards in anki for this reason: I’m not at a large risk of losing a significant investment if something randomly happens to the creator of the software
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by aidenn0 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:18PM (#25463814)
If it's not self hosted, it doesn't matter if you have the source or not
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by hertzrat on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:19AM (#25464643)
Good point. You could still import your backups into a replacement after somebody else resumes the project. Many apps don’t even offer backups or export. Supermemo.com incidentally did not at the time I moved away from it years ago
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by aplummer on Thursday December 17, 2020 @03:51PM (#25460244)
This is why I like the open source + enterprise contract if you like model so much.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by alexilliamson on Thursday December 17, 2020 @04:21PM (#25460619)
What's your favorite such example?
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by Arnt on Thursday December 17, 2020 @04:48PM (#25460947)
I know at least four quite different examples. But they share one trait: They're quiet, softspoken, avoid controversy on internet forums. I won't name any of them.

One uses low pricing, is likable, and provides a fine list of enterprise features. The HN crowd will realise that these features are really different ways of describing a very small amount of code. But if you want to spend your employer's money and don't care to spoil that by telling your managers too much, the list is fine. Engineers who like the likable make money be spent.

One writes per-customer code on top of largely the same body of code, and charges very high prices, largely because they clearly know how to get stuff done using that code. They have the references to prove it, and they wrote the code, and the customers accept that they invoice customers for improvements to the free base too.

One uses a technique I don't understand at all. It's different from the other three, and it works. I mention it to say that the other three aren't an exhaustive list.

The fourth targets nontechnical customers and sell SaaS, I don't know the price level. You can git-clone the code and selfhost if you want, they'll be friendly but not helpful. If you make a PR on github they'll at least look at it.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by DoctorNick on Thursday December 17, 2020 @06:22PM (#25461834)
...why wouldn't you name any of them?
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by whatshisface on Thursday December 17, 2020 @06:31PM (#25461895)
The first one sounds like the commenter knows that their boss would cancel the contract if they realized what was going on, so the parent is taking careful steps to avoid talking about what they don't want their boss to discover.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by Arnt on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:54AM (#25465539)
Because there are quite a few quarrelsome, overly opinionated, arrogant people on HN.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by rriepe on Thursday December 17, 2020 @07:20PM (#25462282)
It's called the chilling effect. The most 'chilling' thing about it is that it's entirely rational.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by ineedasername on Thursday December 17, 2020 @07:58PM (#25462541)
Would RHEL fall into that category?
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by collyw on Friday December 18, 2020 @05:26AM (#25465739)
"What if the vendor goes out of business without warning?"

I think the open source equivalent is: "What if this library stops being maintained"

Which I have encountered multiple times. Having the source code is useful, but most people don't have the time to add another open source library to the code that they need to maintain.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by lazylizard on Saturday December 19, 2020 @06:25AM (#25476736)
unless you're telecom? or fortune 500? most of the time its a "wait for next release". remainder is "known bug won't fix".
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by Privacy846 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @04:15PM (#25460526)
The logical endpoint (regarding purity) of free software is communism, so you’re right that it doesn’t make sense to pursue it 100% in the context of for-profit (presumably) companies.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by abdullahkhalids on Thursday December 17, 2020 @05:51PM (#25461579)
The free software movement is not opposed to you writing software in-house, software which you do not ever distribute to anyone, and hence, are not required to distribute the source of that software to anyone. Hence, never-distributed closed-source software can be privately owned to generate economic profit.

The freedoms the free software movement tries to realize are not comparable to what you are saying. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by sudosysgen on Thursday December 17, 2020 @07:58PM (#25462540)
I definitely agree about your point and disagree that the logical conclusion of FOSS is communism, whatever even that means, but I think there is something to be said about the connection between radical leftism (anarchism, socialism, communism, etc...) and free software.

A way of understanding free software, IMO, is that working with software for which freedoms are socially limited (so-called proprietary software) towards someone else, the proprietor, robs the user of the software of freedom and creates some kind of social hierarchy that is undesirable.

Meanwhile, the basic idea of radical leftism is that working using capital for which freedoms are socially limited to the benefit of someone else robs the worker (really, if you think about it, user-of-capital) of freedom and creates an undesirable social hierarchy.

I think that there is some kind of parallel between both, and it's pretty interesting. That isn't to say that companies should use free software or develop free software from their self-interested point of view - as a company using free software you're almost in the same case as a worker, and as a company developing software it can align incentives to lead to better outcomes.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by soco on Friday December 18, 2020 @09:50AM (#25467602)
Mostly off-topic :) but socialism cannot be "radical leftism" - because you're left like that without any "non-radical leftism" options. Is it left? Sure. But I'd use the labels "radical" for anarchism or marxism.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by sudosysgen on Friday December 18, 2020 @01:08PM (#25469983)
Well, it depends on your definition of left and radical. For me, "left" doesn't mean much and is mostly a mirage anyways, but radical has a meaning - and socialism in general, by my definition anyways - seeks to change the basic social relationships in our society to go at the root of the issues, and I think that fits the radical definition.

That being said, I'd say social democracy is an example of non-radical leftism.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by Privacy846 on Friday December 18, 2020 @12:12PM (#25469259)
/delted/
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by soco on Friday December 18, 2020 @12:24PM (#25469442)
Then I'm very curious to hear some examples of non-radical left.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by Privacy846 on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:37AM (#25465418)
Uh-oh. Looks like you logiced me.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by ineedasername on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:10PM (#25462625)
communism

I don't think that term applies at all in this context. Somewhat simplistically, Communism is 1) A viewpoint on the historical development of society, most notably the economy 2) An extrapolation from that viewpoint on where things are headed, which is judged by communists to be a bad path 3) Advocacy for a path that diverges from #2.

There's a dozen different major branches/interpretations, but at heart they are all socio-political/economic philosophies that are far more complex than simply who owns a thing.

About the only parallel I see between free software is that both want property to be owned by the community. Though even then, I'm not sure free software would have even the restrictions that might be imposed by community ownership. (The community might say "no, don't build that thing." etc.)

Perhaps in a purely communist society software would be free, but free software itself is not inherently communist.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by dnautics on Thursday December 17, 2020 @04:20PM (#25460604)
Depends on the model. Probably the less restrictive models lean towards proudhon/tucker style anarchism more than marxism.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by zapzupnz on Thursday December 17, 2020 @04:43PM (#25460870)
Even when the means of production are in the hands of the workers, that presumably doesn't necessarily equate to accepting the workers tinkering all day, getting nothing done.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by Privacy846 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @04:59PM (#25461065)
I don’t know what this means.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by sudosysgen on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:02PM (#25462569)
What they are saying is that in a hypothetical communist/socialist society, even if the entirety of production is organized by workers, it doesn't mean that they aren't going to be productive in actually building stuff, nor that they aren't going to get stuff done.

How that relates to your argument I don't exactly know, but I guess it could be interpreted as saying that even if you admit that philosophy doesn't mean that you can't produce ""profit"" - especially if it is limited to software.

Also, in theory, you could be 100% accept communist philosophy yet operate a for profit business.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by yellowapple on Thursday December 17, 2020 @05:13PM (#25461212)
It does, however, typically necessitate the workers actually owning those means of production, which in the case of software typically entails either in-house development or the use of free software. The notion of any worker "owning" non-free software is illusory, at best.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by sudosysgen on Thursday December 17, 2020 @07:47PM (#25462464)
Indeed. Writ large, socialism isn't compatible with intellectual property, which I guess is part of the reason why early tech culture (and also nowadays but less so) has so many libertarian socialists.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by ineedasername on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:19PM (#25462689)
and also nowadays but less so) has so many libertarian socialists

Maybe it's the HN bubble, but tech culture these days seems to have a strong element of anarcho-capitalism, taking the usual minarchism of libertarian thought just a small step further.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by sudosysgen on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:25PM (#25462723)
Anarcho-capitalism and the general right-libertarian tendencies in tech culture are virulently opposed to libertarian socialism, though. That said, I agree with your appraisal.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by yellowapple on Friday December 18, 2020 @12:42PM (#25469684)
The HN bubble definitely has a lot to do with that, since the startup culture tends to hold capitalism on a pedestal.