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Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by Privacy846 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @04:15PM (#25460526)
The logical endpoint (regarding purity) of free software is communism, so you’re right that it doesn’t make sense to pursue it 100% in the context of for-profit (presumably) companies.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by abdullahkhalids on Thursday December 17, 2020 @05:51PM (#25461579)
The free software movement is not opposed to you writing software in-house, software which you do not ever distribute to anyone, and hence, are not required to distribute the source of that software to anyone. Hence, never-distributed closed-source software can be privately owned to generate economic profit.

The freedoms the free software movement tries to realize are not comparable to what you are saying. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by sudosysgen on Thursday December 17, 2020 @07:58PM (#25462540)
I definitely agree about your point and disagree that the logical conclusion of FOSS is communism, whatever even that means, but I think there is something to be said about the connection between radical leftism (anarchism, socialism, communism, etc...) and free software.

A way of understanding free software, IMO, is that working with software for which freedoms are socially limited (so-called proprietary software) towards someone else, the proprietor, robs the user of the software of freedom and creates some kind of social hierarchy that is undesirable.

Meanwhile, the basic idea of radical leftism is that working using capital for which freedoms are socially limited to the benefit of someone else robs the worker (really, if you think about it, user-of-capital) of freedom and creates an undesirable social hierarchy.

I think that there is some kind of parallel between both, and it's pretty interesting. That isn't to say that companies should use free software or develop free software from their self-interested point of view - as a company using free software you're almost in the same case as a worker, and as a company developing software it can align incentives to lead to better outcomes.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by soco on Friday December 18, 2020 @09:50AM (#25467602)
Mostly off-topic :) but socialism cannot be "radical leftism" - because you're left like that without any "non-radical leftism" options. Is it left? Sure. But I'd use the labels "radical" for anarchism or marxism.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by sudosysgen on Friday December 18, 2020 @01:08PM (#25469983)
Well, it depends on your definition of left and radical. For me, "left" doesn't mean much and is mostly a mirage anyways, but radical has a meaning - and socialism in general, by my definition anyways - seeks to change the basic social relationships in our society to go at the root of the issues, and I think that fits the radical definition.

That being said, I'd say social democracy is an example of non-radical leftism.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by Privacy846 on Friday December 18, 2020 @12:12PM (#25469259)
/delted/
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by soco on Friday December 18, 2020 @12:24PM (#25469442)
Then I'm very curious to hear some examples of non-radical left.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by Privacy846 on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:37AM (#25465418)
Uh-oh. Looks like you logiced me.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by ineedasername on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:10PM (#25462625)
communism

I don't think that term applies at all in this context. Somewhat simplistically, Communism is 1) A viewpoint on the historical development of society, most notably the economy 2) An extrapolation from that viewpoint on where things are headed, which is judged by communists to be a bad path 3) Advocacy for a path that diverges from #2.

There's a dozen different major branches/interpretations, but at heart they are all socio-political/economic philosophies that are far more complex than simply who owns a thing.

About the only parallel I see between free software is that both want property to be owned by the community. Though even then, I'm not sure free software would have even the restrictions that might be imposed by community ownership. (The community might say "no, don't build that thing." etc.)

Perhaps in a purely communist society software would be free, but free software itself is not inherently communist.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by dnautics on Thursday December 17, 2020 @04:20PM (#25460604)
Depends on the model. Probably the less restrictive models lean towards proudhon/tucker style anarchism more than marxism.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by zapzupnz on Thursday December 17, 2020 @04:43PM (#25460870)
Even when the means of production are in the hands of the workers, that presumably doesn't necessarily equate to accepting the workers tinkering all day, getting nothing done.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by Privacy846 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @04:59PM (#25461065)
I don’t know what this means.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by sudosysgen on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:02PM (#25462569)
What they are saying is that in a hypothetical communist/socialist society, even if the entirety of production is organized by workers, it doesn't mean that they aren't going to be productive in actually building stuff, nor that they aren't going to get stuff done.

How that relates to your argument I don't exactly know, but I guess it could be interpreted as saying that even if you admit that philosophy doesn't mean that you can't produce ""profit"" - especially if it is limited to software.

Also, in theory, you could be 100% accept communist philosophy yet operate a for profit business.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by yellowapple on Thursday December 17, 2020 @05:13PM (#25461212)
It does, however, typically necessitate the workers actually owning those means of production, which in the case of software typically entails either in-house development or the use of free software. The notion of any worker "owning" non-free software is illusory, at best.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by sudosysgen on Thursday December 17, 2020 @07:47PM (#25462464)
Indeed. Writ large, socialism isn't compatible with intellectual property, which I guess is part of the reason why early tech culture (and also nowadays but less so) has so many libertarian socialists.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by ineedasername on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:19PM (#25462689)
and also nowadays but less so) has so many libertarian socialists

Maybe it's the HN bubble, but tech culture these days seems to have a strong element of anarcho-capitalism, taking the usual minarchism of libertarian thought just a small step further.

Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by sudosysgen on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:25PM (#25462723)
Anarcho-capitalism and the general right-libertarian tendencies in tech culture are virulently opposed to libertarian socialism, though. That said, I agree with your appraisal.
Re:When free software isn't practically superior (2015) by yellowapple on Friday December 18, 2020 @12:42PM (#25469684)
The HN bubble definitely has a lot to do with that, since the startup culture tends to hold capitalism on a pedestal.