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Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by logicslave on Thursday November 26, 2020 @03:03AM (#25217924)
Honest opinion on FAANG tools is that the big ones are now antiquated and slowing these big tech companies down. Eventually they will need to rip out all these tools that once gave them an edge and replace them, but they cant bc of how much depends on them, and whala, you have a large failing slow company
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by tpetry on Thursday November 26, 2020 @03:11AM (#25217970)
Declaring a FAANG company failing because it‘s toolset is antiquated is the rare hn elitist opinion you see here more and more. Are startup people in the valley more and more becoming blind to the real world?
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by thrweo24324324 on Thursday November 26, 2020 @06:03AM (#25218856)
There is a certain kernel of truth to it. I work at Google, and doing anything at all is a chore - it's almost as if we're back to programming with punch cards.

It's not surprising that Python doesn't work well in such a high-delay dev environment.

Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by snazz on Thursday November 26, 2020 @02:04PM (#25222723)
I haven't worked at Google or any other big tech company, but I understand that Google's culture is far more like academia anyway. Compared to Facebook, Google prioritizes code quality over development speed. Other companies seem to fall somewhere in between.
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by kudokatz on Thursday November 26, 2020 @08:23PM (#25224819)
> Google prioritizes code quality over development speed.

That's putting it nicely. Based on experience, I'd say it's arguing about preferences while demanding that code be coupled because "that's how we do things here".

> culture is far more like academia anyway

Academia is actually based on research and correctness to a much higher degree. The lack of focus on correctness in code worked on at Google is, honestly, appalling. Until, of course, you realize that all other FAANG employees still write loads of concurrency bugs and pronounce themselves gods for doing so.

Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by joshuamorton on Friday November 27, 2020 @01:31AM (#25226021)
> That's putting it nicely. Based on experience, I'd say it's arguing about preferences while demanding that code be coupled because "that's how we do things here".

That's certainly not been my experience (and I get the exact opposite impression from people involved in the formal readability process).

> Academia is actually based on research and correctness to a much higher degree.

This depends, greatly, on what part of academia you're in. In many ways, Google is much better about correctness than much of academia (reproducibility, for example, is often near trivial at Google but uncommon in most non-theoretical areas of academia).

> The lack of focus on correctness in code worked on at Google is, honestly, appaling

There are tradeoffs here. On the one hand, you have tens of thousands of engineers, you're not going to be able to enforce perfection by every single one with the tools available today with a reasonable cost. On the one hand, I see evidence that Google is willing to invest huge amounts into improving software correctness at the lowest levels (like proposing and upstreaming changes to languages to improve correctness-by-default).

Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by higerordermap on Friday November 27, 2020 @07:28AM (#25228140)
Hi, can you elaborate the high delay part? Is it the case that all code is accessed through internal network using FUSE or something? Or is it because monorepo?
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by logicslave on Thursday November 26, 2020 @03:15AM (#25217991)
I'd say once you take a peak behind the curtain at some of these FAANGS you see that their once greatest assets are becoming liabilities. The magic of "FAANG" goes away. The innovative systems they all built in 2007-2012 period are now aging.
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by xorcist on Thursday November 26, 2020 @03:53AM (#25218178)
What great revolution do you suppose happened in the past decade that made these tools obsolete?

To my eyes, we still develop software in plain text and the same languages are still dominant. It's still Linux and http.

Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by crisper78 on Thursday November 26, 2020 @10:27AM (#25220780)
so right, but it won't make you any money or get you any linkedin/twitter fans if you speak the truth. We have AI being tossed around like it isn't just database queries most of the time.
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by stgx on Thursday November 26, 2020 @06:18AM (#25218938)
A lot has improved over the past decade.
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by alisonkisk on Thursday November 26, 2020 @12:08PM (#25221757)
The revolution was the Internet, bringing together a huge collaboration of open source devs vs the aging ivory tower in each proprietory company.

It's not just Linux and http anymore. It's frameworks towering up to the heavens.

Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by antoinealb on Thursday November 26, 2020 @05:48AM (#25218767)
I don't think I agree with you. Systems have been evolving, some are being deprecated, rewritten, etc. It might be true that the OSS world has been catching up so it is worth less to have a custom made solution. But the fact that systems are aging does not mean that those systems are becoming irrelevant.
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by herodoturtle on Thursday November 26, 2020 @03:46AM (#25218139)
An analogy, if I may share:

On the one hand I agree with you, in that these liabilities you describe are much like the legacy systems I see in our local banking sector.

On the other hand, these legacy systems just work. And adopting newer / more modern systems might definitely have advantages, but doing so creates a bunch of other liabilities - as I've seen take place in our new startup banks.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Of course that's just in banking. I most certainly don't have the experience to comment on whether the same liability tradeoff would happen at FAANGs.

Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by crisper78 on Thursday November 26, 2020 @10:29AM (#25220797)
FAANG's often don't have paying customers, banks do.

Its not being stuck between a rock and a hard place, you just need strong management that understands that changing whole systems is never a good idea without clear benefit, other than "technical debt" which is such a bad term for reliable software. Software doesn't age, im not sure how software engineers don't understand this, or maybe they do and want to write more s/w.

Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by oblio on Thursday November 26, 2020 @03:39PM (#25223351)
Software does age. Security ages, network protocols age, human related configs age (timezones, for example).

And that's besides tribal knowledge that goes away as people leave or retire.

Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by mlazos on Thursday November 26, 2020 @06:24AM (#25218977)
New orgs are forming at big companies all the time. In my time at Microsoft, I’ve seen the tooling go from horrible monorepos with perforce to really nice git repos in azure devops. I also don’t think “failing” is the right term for these megacorps. Slow maybe, but even that varies per team.
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by alisonkisk on Thursday November 26, 2020 @12:10PM (#25221771)
What does it mean to have plural monorepos?
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by snazz on Thursday November 26, 2020 @02:06PM (#25222732)
Org-wide instead of company-wide, maybe?
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by mlazos on Friday November 27, 2020 @11:25PM (#25235260)
Correct, I was working in exchange where all of the teams and orgs working on that worked out of a single large repo and never touched other products.
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by discordance on Thursday November 26, 2020 @03:29AM (#25218055)
Unless I’m missing your point, I disagree. Many Microsoft teams I’ve worked with use Azure Dev Ops or Github + whatever OSS tooling they need. They have all done solid testing, infra as code and CI/CD etc. The tooling is not at all antiquated.

It’s actually been pretty refreshing to be around.

Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by ponker on Thursday November 26, 2020 @03:08AM (#25217949)
Is “whala” an adaptation from the French “voilá” or of a different origin?
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by jayd16 on Thursday November 26, 2020 @04:08AM (#25218253)
Its a boneappletea-ism.
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by beagle3 on Thursday November 26, 2020 @06:54AM (#25219150)
Not clear. Look at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wallah#Etymology_2

wallah is arabic slang for "by god"

voila is french for "look there", meaning "just look at that"

They are totally different semantically interjections originally, yet one fits almost everywhere the other does, and if Wiktionary is to be believed, in Danish one is a spelling for the other.

Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by logicslave on Thursday November 26, 2020 @03:09AM (#25217955)
Its me not caring about the spelling haha...
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by TN1ck on Thursday November 26, 2020 @06:38AM (#25219065)
Could be confused with "Vallah" though in this case: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Vallah
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by Cthulhu_ on Thursday November 26, 2020 @07:16AM (#25219290)
Few things nerdsnipe the HN crowd like a misspelling, lol.
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by dilyevsky on Thursday November 26, 2020 @02:54PM (#25223053)
Right if only they could get on such cutting edge tech as npm, cmake or just gnu make with a pile of bash like most oss projects out there
Re:An ex-Googler’s guide to dev tools by bregma on Thursday November 26, 2020 @07:49AM (#25219564)
Wouldn't the central planning committee include a great leap forward in the next five year plan? This is capitalism, after all, and it's far superior to the socialism of open source software where it's survival of the fittest in a dog-eat-dog world.