For sure the CIA has done a ton of crazy shit. They should be subject to oversight and accountability, but abolishing them won't accomplish much other than introducing a massive blindspot in national security.

The last group that tried to hold them to account had their computers hacked.[1]

It doesn't seem possible to hold the most powerful accountable to me.

[1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_...)

And so told the KGB, after the soviet union disbandment. I don't have to remind people where it went from there.

At least, back in union's times few KGB generals were abducted from time to time, and tortured to death when they felt it was becoming too menacing to the state at large, and that was a natural check on its power.

That's like supporting a protection racket... Wow.

>That's like supporting a protection racket... Wow.

Precisely. A mere sample of the protection afforded:

This same former intelligence official is “adamant” that evidence of such extraordinary renditions within the United States does not exist. It would be a “huge leap” for Chinese intelligence to shift from employing extreme pressure tactics to performing actual hands-on kidnappings in the United States, the former official says. “You want to come to this country and start kidnapping and killing people? Game on.”

[0] https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/29/the-disappeared-china-r...

A protection racket implies the "threat" is fake or choreographed. Are you implying China isn't hacking America, or pushing out it's maritime borders, or threatening US allies? These are all engineered threats somehow?

> A protection racket implies the "threat" is fake or choreographed.

Actually it doesn't

You're right:

"Through the credible threat of violence, the racketeers deter people from swindling, robbing, injuring, sabotaging or otherwise harming their clients."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_racket

It implies that the protector has the absolute ability to control if an attack occurs or not. So if the CIA had a little more budget, they would have stopped 9/11. Because they had the ability to, they just didn't.

Is that what you are saying?

Part of a protection racket is staging attacks when you think you're not going to get paid (or you're not getting paid yet). You could just as easily make a case along those lines, but both cases would be disingenuous because real life is complicated. Just because it's a protection racket doesn't mean that it needs to at all times 100% conform to a sentence that you found on wikipedia.

As in a real life protection racket, there will always be events that occur in spite of the protection offered. The core of a racket is to respond with disproportionate violence. For example, sending your army to harass the entire country that some of your attackers were part of. Drone strikes on schools that are known to be full of children. There are more salient examples to be found, but I think we don't need them.

> Part of a protection racket is staging attacks when you think you're not going to get paid

Are you implying this has happened or does happen? Please cite your source if so.

> Just because it's a protection racket doesn't mean that it needs to at all times 100% conform to a sentence that you found on wikipedia.

No but going off an existing definition is better than throwing around a concept with any real connection to reality.

> The core of a racket is to respond with disproportionate violence. For example, sending your army to harass the entire country that some of your attackers were part of.

What does that have to do with CIA?

> Drone strikes on schools that are known to be full of children.

So a drone strike on country B is payback for them not ponying up protection money to the intel agency of country A. Did I get that right?

That is nonsensical.

Can't tell if you're trolling/deliberately obtuse or what

Here's what I meant: Your wrong conception of how a protection racket works undermines your argument that the person who said "That's like supporting a protection racket" is wrong.

No idea what you're talking about with "implies that the protector has the absolute ability to control if an attack occurs or not." Have you ever seen a gangster film? Anyways every time you invoke a new concept you're getting it wrong so maybe take a step back and think about what people are talking about instead of just randomly generating provocative hypos because you disagree with someone

> Have you ever seen a gangster film?

I'm sorry i'm not basing my arguments on movies i've seen.

Combine that with you arrogance in implying i'm getting concepts wrong (i'm citing them, you are not), I think this conversation has run its course. Your entire response amounts to "you are wrong but i'm not going to say how".

You cited a source which proves you were wrong in exactly the way I pointed out. Your entire original comment hinged on a bizarre metaphor you created out of your false premise that in protection rackets, the "threat" is fake or choreographed. It isn't, so your comment isn't an intelligible critique of the comment it was intended to respond to. Yes, that's my point: your critique is wrong. I told you how: it is based on a false premise.

> (i'm citing them, you are not)

You cited Wikipedia, and you haven't cited a single source for any proposition other than the one you were specifically wrong about.

> I'm sorry i'm not basing my arguments on movies i've seen.

Deliberate obtuseness. The obvious implication of the reference to gangster films is that anyone who has even a passing familiarity with protection rackets knows that harm from the racketeer is not the only threatened harm. The third sentence of the Wikipedia entry you mentioned confirms this: "Through the credible threat of violence, the racketeers deter people from swindling, robbing, injuring, sabotaging or otherwise harming their clients." That means that the analogy between the CIA and a protection racket is perfectly tenable—in the parlance of your Wikipedia entry, a "broader protection racket" rather than a "pure extortion racket."

Not sure how to spell it out any clearer than that. I'm not implying you're getting concepts wrong. You got them both wrong.

No, I admitted my original comment didn't cover everything it needed to, hoping such a concession would lead to a more civilized discussion. I was wrong, you are more interested in attacking people and defending yourself than discussing anything.

> "Through the credible threat of violence, the racketeers deter people from swindling, robbing, injuring, sabotaging or otherwise harming their clients."

Ok, so the CIA approaches their mark, in this case their own government. They say we will threaten other actors that threaten you, in exchange for money. You've just described the Pentagon, DoD, and every standing army on earth. A "broader protection racket" can literally mean any security service, from mall guard to 4-star general.

Besides, you are being disingenuous. When people think of a "protection racket" they think of extortion and the mob, not the broad security guarantees of an army or intel service.

Or as clearly stated on wikipedia:

> "Protection rackets are indistinguishable in practice from extortion rackets"

You a deflecting from the accepted definition of a term you used in order to make your original claim less fantastical and attention seeking. I don't blame you for making such a claim, social media and websites that allow for upvoting are made for such actions.

Doesn't mean you are anywhere near correct.

I can't help thinking China hacking America is part of the NSA profile, and I don't think the CIA is needed to tell anyone that China is pushing out it's maritime borders or threatening U.S allies that's more like what reading the news is for. I suppose there could be a need for analysis of these events, but the analysis doesn't really seem to be part of the reason why people sometimes think the CIA should be abolished.

My point was a simple one, spying will always occur. If people are arguing it should be the exclusive purview of autocrats, and that would somehow improve the state of the world, I would disagree.

The arguments for closing the CIA that I am familiar with all revolve around a narrative that it is a non-democratic organization, and that from its predecessors the OSS to the modern day it has been structured so as to help fascistic, autocratic governments gain and hold power.

I've never encountered an argument that it should be closed because spying isn't nice.

> it has been structured so as to help fascistic, autocratic governments gain and hold power.

Perhaps during the cold war, but "countering communism" (whatever that means) was the mission of every branch of the US Government then.

So not sure what your point is.

A whole lot of these threats are manufactured. You know that members of the Bush administration helped orchestrate the 9/11 attacks, right?

No, they didn't.

But that’s lame even for a conspiracy. Step 1 if it was a conspiracy would have been certainly to go after the funders because they were loose ends.

That massive blind spot may be preferable to the problems their actions cause.

Preferable in what way? Clearly the CIA has sinned and will likely continue to do so, but how can we evaluate an agency whose job by definition is either totally unseen (Espionage) or only reported on years after the fact (i.e. no one cares about the terrorist attacks that don't happen)

We technically do not evaluate anything of this nature, without acknowledging that there are greater forces which evaluate evaluators.

Without that belief, what we get instead, is vigilantism (either within the institution, or outside of it.) Preferable to that, is well-accountable and ethically mutual reflection which brings out the best, and roots out the worst in the participants. That is never impossible, as long as we presume accountability beyond immediate verifiability. As Christ said: "for there is nothing hidden which will not be brought to light."

In horror tales of every institution (or individual) is the requirement to self-assess and demand better for oneself. If the CIA has entirely slipped its moorings, it is subject to the countervailing forces which would enlighten its enemies to its demise.

What is more hopeful, is that only various activities have gone rogue. Regardless, only God knows entirely the state of affairs. God does respond. So with love, and a whole lot of grace, we'll see a brighter future for everyone involved.

Not to be too controversial, but that last part only works if you believe there is a god or some sort of cosmic justice. Those of us who don't would like to explore alternative solutions...

The US has plenty of other intelligence agencies.

So you wanna live in the world where only Russians and Saudis do extrajudicial killings?

That would objectively be an improvement, absolutely

Shutting down spy agencies in democracies will not stop spying done by autocrats. If anything, it will create greater incentives to attack more, not less.

I think drawing direct equivalence to the CIA and what the FSB get up to is a little strong. It's a popular thing to say on HN, but if it were true it would mean there's evidence of (say) finding the CIA planting bombs the day after 9/11 in a different skyscraper i.e. The Moscow apartment bombings.

Mass surveillance is a different matter, although I don't think that (nominally at least) falls under the CIA's remit