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Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Robotbeat on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:27AM (#25101411)
Lithium-based batteries (and associated tech) are to the 21st century what the internal combustion engine was to the 20th century and what the steam engine was to the 19th century.

There’s a ~90% chance you’re using a device powered by a lithium chemistry battery to read this right now (laptop or tablet or phone). The smartphone alone (enabled by lithium based batteries) has transformed the world. Lithium-based batteries have impacted public health & healthcare (e-cigs vs conventional, medical devices like insulin pump, etc), micromobility (e-scooters, e-bikes, electric wheelchairs, etc), countless accessories (smart watches, smart speakers, wireless earbuds), grid storage, electric cars, electric buses, electric trucks, electric ferries, electric rocket pumps (RocketLab), satellites, submarines, civil drones (like Zipline), and a whole bunch of things that have not yet been invented and perhaps require improved chemistry like lithium metal anode or lithium sulfur or eventually lithium-air (enabling long-haul electric flight, even supersonic flight).

For things like this article described, it will enable more expansion of form factors and reduce costs. Jet suits have been done before but equivalently-specked electric motors are much cheaper than the small, micro turbines used for projects like this. And micro turbines have such atrocious efficiency (about 4.4% for hobby turbine engines... meaning their fuel supply only has a useful specific energy of about 1.9MJ/kg or 525Wh/kg, compared to 0.5 MJ/kg for high-C-rate LiPo, 1MJ/kg for really good production Li-ion and 2MJ/kg for low C rate lithium metal anode cells and lithium sulfur) that after another few decades of battery chemistry improvement, electric microturbines not only will have punchier power but also longer duration.

There’s a ton of undeveloped opportunities out there that will be enabled by the efficiency, convenience, low-cost, high reliability, and oxygen-independence of lithium chemistry batteries.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by JKCalhoun on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:28AM (#25102358)
Allow me my cynicism (this is HN after all): the rise of electric R/C planes and "foamies" has been a fascinating change in the model-airplane hobby but at the same time it has shown that you can practically put an electric motor + lithium cell on anything and it will "fly". So much so that I feel like the art/science of aerodynamics in modeling has fallen by the wayside.

Your run of the mill quadcopter is an ideal example of just throwing together motors + batteries + tech and getting a flying machine out of it. It feels inelegant to me because if any of those systems fails, the entire vehicle drops like the non-fliyng-thing that it is. Even helicopters auto-gyro for a period of time after engine failure and can firefly "fly" to a quick landing.

If there is a continuum running from "flying machine" (like a glider) to "rock", the "wing suit" seems laughably close to the rock end of the spectrum. Throwing electric motors at it.... </rant>

To expose my hypocrisy, I'm a huge fan of the lifting body program out of Dryden Flight Research Center (now Armstrong Flight Research Center) of the 1960's.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by throw0101a on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:34AM (#25102402)
> Your run of the mill quadcopter is an ideal example of just throwing together motors + batteries + tech and getting a flying machine out of it.

There's the old saw that airplanes fly using lift, but helicopters fly by beating the air into submission.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by loeg on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:04PM (#25103240)
Helicopters fly by trying to tear themselves apart, and mostly failing at this.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by njharman on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:44PM (#25103049)
> the art/science of aerodynamics in modeling has fallen by the wayside.

You are not wrong. That is a valid lament.

But, this is the definition (or at least a very common result) of innovation/progress.

Tech/automation advances to the point that non-artists, non-experts can do a thing competently or even expertly. Photography use to require expensive equipment, skill, and knowledge. Modern advances in digital sensors/lenses/flashes/post-processing makes everyone able to take professional quality photos. There is, of course still masters and talented artists that surpass. But the floor for everyone has been brought up to expert level at least.

Same for film/video, driving, complex maths, and many more.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by tomc1985 on Sunday November 15, 2020 @03:29PM (#25104518)
> Modern advances in digital sensors/lenses/flashes/post-processing makes everyone able to take professional quality photos.

For newspapers, maybe, but the tiny optics on phones rule out a lot of photographic techniques, to say nothing of sensor quality when trying to pull 20+ MP out of a sensor the size of a tab of acid

My iPhone 11 Pro still takes crap pictures compared to my FX (or even DX) camera body, and that's with all of Apple's idiot-proofing AI bullshit

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by lopmotr on Sunday November 15, 2020 @03:52PM (#25104711)
Of course, otherwise those fancy cameras would have no market and disappear. Just like film is pretty much completely gone now, as are glass plate cameras. The truly inferior tech disappears and what's left fits some extreme niche where it surpasses the cheap consumer stuff in some way. There are things you can do with a PC that you can't with a smartphone too.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by tomc1985 on Sunday November 15, 2020 @04:12PM (#25104887)
That's incredibly optimistic of you to call the PC dead. I really, really, hope (and am pretty sure) that you are wrong
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by girvo on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:43PM (#25107381)
I think the death of the PC won’t happen until phones and similar have the same power user capabilities as one. As long as we need a PC to build things for our phones, they’ll exist in some form.

The PC for everyday regular usage though is indeed dying. My girlfriend has an iPad Air with the keyboard case from Apple and it’s her primary computing device!

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by lopmotr on Monday November 16, 2020 @06:41PM (#25118564)
Not death of the PC! Just the presence of more numerous and cheaper smartphones. They're superior to PCs for most people but not for everyone.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by HPsquared on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:48AM (#25102529)
It's a matter of scaling laws. You don't see insects or hummingbirds gliding anywhere, small things fly differently.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by DFHippie on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:56PM (#25103169)
Butterflies do glide sometimes.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by andrewflnr on Sunday November 15, 2020 @06:25PM (#25105985)
Dragonflies, too. But it's true that they can only do so for short distances. I don't think I've seen either glide for longer than a meter.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by bnonhacker on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:56PM (#25103668)
Lol
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by systemvoltage on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:10PM (#25102697)
And dangerously. There is no redundancy.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Someone on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:34PM (#25102947)
For insects, hummingbirds, and quadcopters of similar size, there’s no danger in dropping from the sky.

J.S. Haldane in “on being the right size”:

“You can drop a mouse down a thousand-yard mine shaft; and, on arriving at the bottom it gets a slight shock and walks away, provided that the ground is fairly soft. A rat is killed, a man is broken, a horse splashes. For the resistance presented to movement by the air is proportional to the surface of the moving object. Divide an animal’s length, breadth, and height each by ten; its weight is reduced to a thousandth, but its surface only a hundredth. So the resistance to falling in the case of the small animal is relatively ten times greater than the driving force.

An insect, therefore, is not afraid of gravity; it can fall without danger, and can cling to the ceiling with remarkably little trouble.”

(These wing suits are man-sized, so they would break their wearer on impact)

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by dmurray on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:16PM (#25103356)
> A rat is killed, a man is broken, a horse splashes.

I had thought that cats could fall from any height safely, but that's not quite true: observational studies suggest [0] they have a 50% or 90% survival rate from terminal-velocity height onto hard surfaces, but not without injury.

Still, I'd expect a rat could also "walk away". It's quite a lot smaller than a cat, though it may lack other evolutionary adaptations for falling. And a rat is a mouse, taxonomically: we just informally call the bigger species of mice rats.

[0] http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/11/domestic-cat...

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Kye on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:28PM (#25103435)
The dual taxonomy of so many animals is interesting. The line between a pigeon and a dove seems to be one of judgment, like with rats and mice. Or the slightly more distant mantis and roach.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by dmd on Sunday November 15, 2020 @02:00PM (#25103696)
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by skykooler on Monday November 16, 2020 @12:33AM (#25108421)
Rats lack the long legs of cats that allow them to cushion their fall, though. Cats have a ton of adaptations that each help with some aspect of landing from a fall.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by stjohnswarts on Sunday November 15, 2020 @07:52PM (#25106673)
a huge portion of that is that humans have a much worse weight to surface area ratio, cats hit at about 60mph and humans at 120 mph. very few humans survive falls in which they reached terminal velocity.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by joosters on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:36AM (#25102434)
I don't understand the lasting appeal of quadcopters in particular. We can build remote-controlled 'normal' helicopters that have fantastic performance and much greater efficiency (no need for 4x the motors and stubby blades).

The only downside I understand is that R/C helicopters are very difficult to fly, but that should be straightforward to overcome by putting a basic computer + sensors between the controller and the servos - the user could control the helicopter as if it were a quadcopter, and the electronics transforms those inputs with its sensors/gyros to control the helicopter appropriately.

This would seem to save costs due to fewer parts, lower weight, better battery efficiency, etc, but no-one seems to do it. I must be missing something?

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by snovv_crash on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:43AM (#25102498)
Quadcopters are enormously more robust. With an RC helicopter any hard landing probably means replacing hundreds of dollars of finicky bearings and swash plates. Racing drones on the other hand smash into stuff all the time and keep going.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by meheleventyone on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:32PM (#25103460)
I think a large part is that they’re inherently safer with four smaller propellers rather than one big one. So suddenly applications where you’d need a helicopter are accessible to people with less training and skill. Particularly with the robust flying assists and mechanical simplicity.

Then they also turn out to be a readily accessible tinkering hobby very suited to flying around in areas people have nearby. The whole FPV and racing scenes bought in a demographic shift compared with helicopters and fixed wing. Quads are also fantastically agile so quite a different experience to anything else.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by bargle0 on Sunday November 15, 2020 @02:30PM (#25103989)
Most quad copter blades won’t go through your skull:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/minute-mechanical-error-led-teens-...

Proper helicopters also require a complicated control linkage on the main rotor and a separate tail rotor. Quad copters (and other multi-blade devices) only need to modulate power to the rotors for control.

I would never ride a quad copter, but they’re better for unmanned use.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by sigmaprimus on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:53AM (#25102561)
I think you are probably correct about creating an easier to fly helicopter using a intermediate processor. I also think the argument of longer flight times due to less power draw may be true also.

But cheaper and fewer parts I'm not so sure, part of the reason drones are so popular is the low parts count and part price.

Most low price hobby copters use 3 motors, driving two opposing rotor blades for stability and a tail blade for steering. There are also several gears and bearings to support their functions. Far easier to strap 4 motors with props to a cross and drive them using a solid state SBC integrated with RF,6 axis gyro and 4 power transistors.

Many of these new hobby drones use all the same parts across several different manufacturers so there is an economy of scale to considet too.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by palijer on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:46AM (#25102514)
Having 4 weaker motors is generally safer than one big one if something were to hit it, and you can shorten the blades because the lift is spread across 4x as many blades.

Multiple motors is good as well for any motor failures, as quads (if they're well designed) can fly after even multiple motor failures.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Diggsey on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:07PM (#25102668)
With a helicopter, even if you lose the motor (lift) you still have control by adjusting the pitch, angle and ratio of the blades.

A quadcopter depends on the motors for any control. While it is possible to regain control after a single motor failure on a quadcopter, it's extremely difficult and not something a human pilot could do, so you'd be relying on software. Also, if you don't detect the failure instantly, the craft will flip over before the software can react because of the inherent instability.

Any solution where you have some kind of passive lift and inherent stability (eg. parachute, wing, etc.) is always going to be much safer.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by HeWhoLurksLate on Sunday November 15, 2020 @02:00PM (#25103693)
Would a proper parachute on a quadcopter be fine in case of motor failure / etc. be okay, then?
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by robotresearcher on Sunday November 15, 2020 @02:59PM (#25104240)
Multirotor designs are not limited to 4 motors. You can add more for redundancy. Four is common because it’s the smallest number that has good control characteristics.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by im3w1l on Sunday November 15, 2020 @06:01PM (#25105819)
Mind explaining that one? To me it seems they have an unnecessary degree of freedom: the "diagonal" one.

    ox
    xo
What issues do you get with three motors in an equilateral triangle?

EDIT: I managed to find it, with even number of motors you can prevent unwanted yawing, by letting half spin clockwise and other half spin counterclockwise.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by robotresearcher on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:31PM (#25106947)
Yep. More generally, you can induce the yaw rate you want (up to a limit) in either direction, including zero.

I’m not an expert but IIRC with three rotors you need to be able to control a bit of roll of just one of them to have stable flight control.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by sam_goody on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:55PM (#25103161)
As they say "If you're in a helicopter and the fan goes off, you'll start sweating" :)
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by carlhjerpe on Sunday November 15, 2020 @06:15PM (#25105905)
If you lose power on a quad they become unstable, if you lose power on a heli you can pitch the blades slightly downwards which keeps rotation in them and level out close to the ground landing perfectly smooth. IIRC this is something you practice to get your license. Can be done with both RC helicopters and real ones.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by usrusr on Sunday November 15, 2020 @07:10PM (#25106350)
But brushless electric motors are so much more reliable than combustion engines (internal or turbine), the comparison is not even funny. They are basically solid state devices. "Losing power" is simply not much of an error state outside of complete battery failure. And if you still want to be safe from motor failures (or from propeller failures), octocopters exist. I share the "multicopters are boring" attitude, but they are boring for a reason.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by carlhjerpe on Monday November 16, 2020 @02:56AM (#25109227)
Absolutely, as long as they're operating within parameters there's no failing them. I've been running brushless systems in RC cars for the last 7 odd years. The only motor failures has been when It's been subject to extreme abuse, as in the rotor reaching 100+° (internally), going from ~55-60K RPM to 0 in fraction of a second or the rotor being forced through the bearings.

For unmanned flight i do agree on multicopters being the best option. See this[1] video for an example of a multicopter flying with disabled props.

However, as you see this flightmode isn't appropriate for human beings, humans should keep flying helis for now. The swash plate design even though more complex than a prop mounted on a shaft is still a rather simple design, litterally a bearing mounted on a 2 axis system and rods attached to rotate the blades. Multicopters with swash plates are interesting too as they can be simplified not to tilt the plate but only offset it up and down to alter pitch the same way all around the rotation. If. This exerts less force on the bearing, but considering there's still 4 of them rather than one might increse failure rate. With swash plates on multicopters we could have two motors driving one system that drives the props, and do many amazing things with computer aided controls in case of failure.

Idk why i keep on going, TL;DR: Being able to control pitch is key, multirotor or not.

I'm not really with Elon Musk on alot of things, but personal human flight is one thing where i agree with him, It's not going to happen.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2itwFJCgFQ

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by usrusr on Monday November 16, 2020 @03:13PM (#25116445)
Well, simple propeller pitch control is a lot easier than a swash plate because it's idle when the pitch is kept the same and it's no problem if making it slower simplifies it. A swash plate is active on each rotation and needs to be fast enough to work the blade through a certain range of pitch values within have a rotation interval.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by FabHK on Sunday November 15, 2020 @04:34PM (#25105101)
I don't think a quadcopter is controllable with 3 engines.

However, a drone designed to carry pax can be designed with redundancy - the Volocopter, for example, has 18 rotors and engines, and can withstand at least 3 failing.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by pa7ch on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:36PM (#25102969)
Mechanical simplicity in not having rotating blades I think is a big part of it. Its a lot easier to just use more motors and a 3d printer for the body then design the complex blade control system for a helicopter.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by 411111111111111 on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:48AM (#25102527)
You're just vastly underestimating the stability four rotors bring. They're not flying in a vacuum. There are gusts of wind on top of actually moving the copter where you want him to go.

That can't be reasonably compensated by unless you use a processor which requires way more energy then the rotors ever will.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by jiofih on Sunday November 15, 2020 @06:42PM (#25106111)
Fantastic performance as in? Quadcopters routinely reach 60km/h, and cheap racing models can go over 100km/h. I doubt any kind of heli will ever perform like that
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by 3princip on Sunday November 15, 2020 @02:10PM (#25103794)
One could argue that the increase in hardware performance of computers has led to the art of software design falling by the wayside. Horribly inefficient software runs because the hardware performance hides the truth under the hood.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by girvo on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:46PM (#25107402)
That in theory gives a programmer who does care about performance an edge: they can leverage the amazing performance of modern day chips in a way that the average product doesn’t, and it should mean a business advantage...

In practice it seems more complex than that — but I have experienced a softer version of that idea in practice with my own work. Performance does matter, but it isn’t the only factor.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by salawat on Monday November 16, 2020 @10:41AM (#25112998)
Unfortunately, you lose that advantage because in days of yore, people knew the implementation details of their hardware, and would optimize around that. With microcode. and the sheer size of certain instruction sets, it is very difficult to do the same thing, particularly mow that the philosophy of programming/computing has shifted to accomodate the industry as an omnipresent actor in your execution environment, and furthermore one with even more rights to observable machine state than you, the owner of the damn thing.

Your point on inefficient code stands, but there is far more at play than mere "programmers aren't skilled enough" and "imagine the possibilities!"

I'll wager a true Mel would not be an easy thing to reoccur nowadays.

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by cromulent on Sunday November 15, 2020 @03:17PM (#25104420)
Wingsuits are much closer to gliders than rocks aerodynamically. They can generate lift and fly upwards for a short time. Ram air wingsuits have only been around for less than 25 years but have developed dramatically during that time, even without power. They are amazing gliding craft.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by simias on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:38AM (#25102454)
Quadcopters also usually have terribly autonomy. Gliding is a lot more efficient at conserving energy so there's still a lot good engineering to be had in aerodynamics whenever you need to be in the air for more than a handful of minutes at a time.

That's why if you look at professional drones you generally only see quadcopters when being able to hover and/or execute very precise motions is required, for the rest wings are still generally superior.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by tachyonbeam on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:08PM (#25102679)
It seems to me like there's a good future for electric VTOL. Whether for package delivery or for carrying people, you can take off vertically, and then transition to a horizontal flight regime using wings that's more energy efficient, so you can get more range.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by nonesuchluck on Sunday November 15, 2020 @05:33PM (#25105600)
This feels like the golden path to me, too. Lilium is claiming 300km range at 300km/hour, and appears to transition nicely to horizontal flight. Maybe not a great glide ratio on those stubby little wings, but it looks safer than quadcopters. They don't need all 36 ducted fans for normal flight, so eating a bird shouldn't spell death.

Has anybody else shown off similar craft? Uber Air's eVTOL looks about 50% CGI/50% hype, but maybe I've missed something.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by marvin on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @06:07PM (#25143863)
My layman's aerodynamic hunch says that Lilium is on the right design track for practical, reliable, long-range electric VTOL aircraft.

There's two critical ingredients: Transitioning out of powered lift immediately after takeoff, and having a battery mass fraction that's as high as possible. Obviously, VTOL & payload limits the latter.

Multicopter designs won't work; their power requirements are too high.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by strbean on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:45PM (#25107042)
That's what they're hoping for at Joby Aviation: https://www.jobyaviation.com/
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by afarviral on Monday November 16, 2020 @04:55AM (#25109961)
I fly FPV drones and can confirm the propellers and motor technology has come quite far. Not to mention the leaps and bounds of flight controllers in the last few years. There seems to increasingly few things that can go wrong with my drone. Bent prop/motor shaft; no problem. Missing parts of propellers; you can still fly home. Its aerodynamics, materials and software... and most of those things are off the shelf, just an afterthought for the drone builder and pilot. Its cool to be able to shift focus to flying but agree heavily its a different craft now.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by skykooler on Monday November 16, 2020 @12:39AM (#25108450)
This reminds me of various videos I've seen where people strap the guts of a quadcopter to various lightweight things to make them fly (the most recent being the Corridor Crew video on making a flying Nerf gun), and they just...work. (With much shorter battery life.) Of course, that's almost entirely thanks to the control electronics - that sort of active stabilization enables almost anything to fly. You couldn't do the same thing with a passively-stable R/C airplane, for example (speaking from experience).
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by palijer on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:40AM (#25102469)
What is the difference between what you are describing and a helicopter? Obviously comparing quad drones to fixed wing aircraft is going to make it seem that the quad drones thrown out 100 years of innovation and theory, but they are very different things.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Hnrobert42 on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:34AM (#25101477)
If you are so inclined to answer, I’d live to know why lithium batteries and not some other form of battery? That is, do other elements not have the right properties? Are they too rare? Are they dangerous? You sort of answer a bit in your last paragraph.

Why did it take until now to get to lithium batteries? Why way NiCad the thing before? Will lithium continue to dominate, or are there other competitive solutions just one breakthrough away? What about hydrogen cells?

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Robotbeat on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:37AM (#25101510)
The periodic table is limited. Of all metals, lithium is the lightest. It also has the highest mass-specific conductivity and the highest chemical specific energy of all the metals.

Hydrogen is not a solid or a liquid at room temperature and is also too volumetrically in-dense.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by henrikschroder on Sunday November 15, 2020 @02:05PM (#25103745)
I have never really understood the hydrogen hype train, because liquid hydrogen is terrible in so many ways.

A bucket of gasoline contains more hydrogen atoms than a bucket of liquid hydrogen, it contains more chemical energy, and you can actually keep it in a bucket at room temperature without anything terrible happening.

Sure, liquid hydrogen has a lot of energy by weight, but energy storage needs to be good by weight and by volume, and hydrogen is terrible by volume.

There are cases for using hydrogen as your energy storage, but if your thing is smaller than a truck, it's probably not one of them. There's just so much wishful thinking around.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by robotresearcher on Sunday November 15, 2020 @03:06PM (#25104310)
You are absolutely right. The great appeal of hydrogen is that you can get it straightforwardly from water and it oxidizes back to water. Hard to imagine a cleaner energy cycle, subject to the extraction energy source but that’s in common with the alternatives.

Pretty much everything else about it is bad. Shame.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by usrusr on Sunday November 15, 2020 @07:58PM (#25106712)
Hydrogen storage becomes quite easy when you forget about H2 for a while and focus on the energy content instead. Add some other atoms into the mix and you get something much more benign with little energy loss. Methane (CH4) is the obvious first candidate because it's so close to what we are used to burn, but ammonium (NH4) is also a good "storage hydrogen" (this one you'd want to split before burning, but it's easier to make because there's far more N than C in the air). Ammonium liquefies at easily achievable -33C or at room temperature under pressures no higher than what you find in certain bicycle tires. Some are even exploring the viability of iron dust as an energy storage medium: it oxidizes quite violently and would be recycled from the resulting iron oxide dust with hydrogen.

So hydrogen electrolysis would be the root of renewable chemistry just like fossil hydrocarbon is the root of almost all current chemistry (where even processes that use hydrogen are sourcing that from fossil hydrocarbons). You can have a "hydrogen based economy" even without any meaningful amount of H2 ever stored or leaving the power-to-x plant.

Usage site H2 applications are a dead-end, that's something I would have signed ever since the "hydrogen economy" proposed by George W. Bush (funny how benign hindsight looks at him post-Trump). Admittedly, back then I was also completely unaware that "hydrogen based economy" wouldn't necessarily mean "H2 to the home", I was just shooting down that idea with basically the same inevitability arguments as yours.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by CrazyCatDog on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:38AM (#25101522)
NiCd is actually more capable than NiMh, but suffers from memory issues (capacity decreases significantly if not carefully discharged and recharged; ie you cannot “top them off” without sacrificing capacity.

Again, speaking from my lived experience, NiCd pushed to the limit resulted in many gnarly fires in high performance RC use, NiMh was never a contender given low output (again low discharge rates). LiPo is king here, both in terms of output and weight/power, but overcharging or excessive discharging results in thermal runaway. Lithium ion is far safer, but less effective.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by xoa on Sunday November 15, 2020 @10:25AM (#25101863)
As a non-performance (including weight) practical matter as well, cadmium is just plain a rather toxic heavy metal. IIRC the EU has outright banned NiCd batteries entirely with a few very minimal legacy exceptions (medical devices I think?). Even though in principle part of the price is supposed to cover proper disposal EOL, people being people plenty got tossed and it's nasty stuff to have in a landfill even let alone elsewhere. There isn't any real treatment for it either as far as I know, normal heavy metal treatments like chelation therapy don't really work with Cd.

So I think yet another benefit of lithium is also that it's relatively easier to deal with over its whole life cycle. Elemental lithium is of course quite reactive, don't want to be directly exposed to it, but it doesn't stay that way in nature. That it's extremely abundant and distributed doesn't hurt either. While for economic reasons it makes sense to get it initial from naturally highly concentrated sources, and to recycle lithium packs, it'd be perfectly viable to pull it right out of the ocean with solar power if there was ever a need.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by ksrm on Sunday November 15, 2020 @05:24PM (#25105523)
LiPo is a type of Li-ion battery and they have much the same safety characteristics. Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries are much safer, they don't tend to run away.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Hnrobert42 on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:10PM (#25102690)
What about lithium and memory? Do lithium batteries have big memory issues, or is all the stuff rattling around in my head about batteries having memories mostly because I grew up when NiCd and NiMh were all the rage?
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by usrusr on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:11PM (#25106814)
If you grew up with both you must remember how NiMH was initially championed as "no memory effect". It was still there, but so weak compared to NiCd that the claim wasn't really disputed. Lithium are at least another step of that size better than that, if they have memory effect at all. If they do have a tiny little memory effect left it's probably smaller than the extra cell aging one deep cycle would cause compared to to two smaller cycles of the same total capacity, as least as long as the smaller cycles are taking place somewhat close to nominal voltage. That would at least make memory effect irrelevant for all practical purposes.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Robotbeat on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:20PM (#25103375)
Lithium doesn’t have any memory effect.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by dr_dshiv on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:28AM (#25102363)
Asimov promised me miniaturized nuclear batteries. Sad face.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by mPReDiToR on Monday November 16, 2020 @03:53AM (#25109579)
They were supposed to fit in a belt buckle!
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by coryrc on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:49PM (#25103605)
Hydrogen cells will always have 10x+ the inefficiency of a lithium battery. They will always be niche for cost reasons.

A NiCd cell has 1.2V per cell, a lithium cell has 3.2-3.7V per cell, so they need to have three times the electron density just to break even. They are about 1.5-2.0x higher IIRC and aren't getting better, while we are still improving lithium slowly.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by swiley on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:16AM (#25102267)
It's funny but I happen to be reading this on a desktop with an AGM (sealed lead acid in fiberglass) battery backup.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by hackerbee on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:36AM (#25102426)
Congratulations, you are one of the less than 1 out of 10. AGM is great for stationary batteries, and has a place in vehicles but they will probably be replaced by lithium chemistry batteries in the coming decades as well as cost is coming down further.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by bredren on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:39AM (#25102459)
It’s rather pedestrian in the shadow of this soaring sermon, but I found these Lithium Batteries in the shape of traditional D cells.

They put out 1.5v just like regular Ds but the end screws off slightly to reveal a micro usb to charge them! I wish I had these for my stuff when I was a kid.

I use them to power my automatic cat feeder. It’s great.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by thimkerbell on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:52AM (#25102556)
Where?
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by bredren on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:32PM (#25103465)
I’m not going to post the link but they are called Twharf D Cell Batteries 1.5V/5000mAh D Batteries Micro.

I really could not believe it when I charged them for the first time. Here is a pic https://i.imgur.com/2LoyZlR.jpg

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by hamburglar on Sunday November 15, 2020 @06:09PM (#25105860)
Those look incredibly useful. I'll be ordering some in the future if they are still around and don't seem to have any reliability/safety issues (I'm slightly wary of Lithium batteries being crammed into places that haven't been thoroughly tested for that application, given the tendency of these things to catch fire. A Mag-lite with lithium batteries would be great but resembles a pipe-bomb a little too much for comfort until they're proven.)
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by bredren on Sunday November 15, 2020 @07:58PM (#25106717)
I don’t know about their reliability, but the sheer novelty of recharging them is something else.

I’ve only done it once in six months for the cat feeder and it hadn’t run out.

No fires yet. Presumably the danger would be in the wiring and power electronics. I’d guess the battery is off the shelf, though I haven’t torn one down—they aren’t exactly cheap.

My favorite part is the action on opening the end. It is slightly spring loaded, but also limited, it won’t come apart. Someone clever designed it.

They have other standard sizes as well, but I haven’t tried them.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by usrusr on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:18PM (#25107238)
I really like your observation of a "lithium battery age".

But people tend to greatly overestimate how much lithium batteries improve: we remember a class of battery powered devices that ran on NiMH, then at some point LiIon became cheap enough for that use case so that the next generation that we got was so much better. We then extrapolated a fantasy battery improvement speed from that one-time jump and this mistake is rarely corrected. Instead it was supported by the next device class that got absorbed by the ever shrinking lithium price threshold. This process is now about finished, very few NiMH applications left to get "lithiumized". But the fantasy also supported, one a lower intensity but enough to impede corrections, by how the actual actual progress within lithium batteries (not quite as big as we wish, outside of price at least) gets complemented by devices becoming more efficient (think LED flashlights) and devices dedicating an increasing fraction of their mass/volume to the battery (smartphones, laptops, also cars if you compare to pre-Tesla electrics)

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by CrazyCatDog on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:33AM (#25101474)
Lithium ion cannot output enough (low C) to make this feasible (yet). Much more likely using Li-Po cells, which are far more adept at emptying themselves at high load—but thermal runaway (eg insanely hot fires) is all too real with Li-Po, though less so today than say 6 years ago!
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by nikda on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:42AM (#25101549)
From Wikipedia: A lithium polymer battery, or more correctly lithium-ion polymer battery (abbreviated as LiPo, LIP, Li-poly, lithium-poly and others), is a rechargeable battery of lithium-ion technology using a polymer electrolyte instead of a liquid electrolyte.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Robotbeat on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:57AM (#25101646)
You’d be surprised. There are some high-C lithium ion cells, but they’re not as easily available as LiPo. If you need to dump your power over 4-10 minutes or longer at peak power, there are lithium ion cells available. Less than 4 minutes, LiPo is still better for now.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by CrazyCatDog on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:23AM (#25102323)
Totally agree. My use case: 3 seconds max (launch), 3 seconds in-flight would be out of sight— total power on time between charges is well below one minute. I’m tempted to guess that this would be the most efficient way of converting electricity in wing suit applications as well.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by jononor on Sunday November 15, 2020 @04:10PM (#25104868)
That is more supercapacitor territory than batteries, especially if you do not require long-term energy storage (can accept relatively high self-discharge). The energy recovery systems in Formula 1 racing (KERS) are examples.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Robotbeat on Sunday November 15, 2020 @06:03PM (#25105828)
What’s interesting is that in many cases, LiPos can equal the specific power of supercapacitors!
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by samfisher83 on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:52PM (#25103627)
Did you know there were electric cars and they were more popular before ICE cars became more wide spread.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by JohnJamesRambo on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:07PM (#25103282)
>after another few decades of battery chemistry improvement

How do you know we aren't near the end of what is possible with batteries already? I assume that people in the steam and internal combustion era thought things would just keep improving forever as well.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by gorbypark on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:12PM (#25103324)
I don’t have any experience with Steam engines, but IC engines have made huge improvements in efficiency in the last 10 years or so.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by lovemenot on Sunday November 15, 2020 @06:17PM (#25105921)
>> I assume that people in the steam and internal combustion era thought things would just keep improving forever

Maybe at the beginning of steam, but as early as 1824 Carnot had put a theoretical limit on it.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Robotbeat on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:19PM (#25103371)
Because of where we are in the lab for better chemistries.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by JohnJamesRambo on Sunday November 15, 2020 @07:21PM (#25106427)
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2kmz7d/lii...

This only goes to 2005 and is plateauing at 200. I checked and a Tesla is 250-260 or so. Seems rapid growth is definitely over and we are at the asymptote.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by sudosysgen on Sunday November 15, 2020 @05:08PM (#25105385)
Isn't the efficiency of jet turbines, even microjets, wildly dependent on velocity? I don't know how you can calculate an efficiency without qualification.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Robotbeat on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:55PM (#25108176)
I used figures from a hobby turboprop which gives mechanical power output in kilowatts (or horsepower, if you prefer) and it’s basically independent of velocity.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by sudosysgen on Monday November 16, 2020 @04:44PM (#25117340)
Well yes, that's a turboprop. But fossil fuel wingsuits don't use turboprops, they use turbojets, whose efficiency very much depends on speed, which in practice means that they are most efficient right before their peak mach, up to around mach 2.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by xwdv on Sunday November 15, 2020 @10:14AM (#25101788)
Does this mean when we run out of lithium we will fall into some kind of dark age?
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by gorgoiler on Sunday November 15, 2020 @10:47AM (#25102032)
The lith in lithium is the same word that describes the Earth’s crust.

To a reasonable approximation, the day we run out of lithium is the day we’ve mined the entire planetary surface.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Robotbeat on Sunday November 15, 2020 @10:17AM (#25101802)
We will never run out. Lithium is infinitely recyclable, is common in underground brines and some rocks all over the world, and has sufficient concentration in seawater that it can usefully be extracted (for non-insane cost) if for whatever reason all other sources are exhausted.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by adrian_b on Sunday November 15, 2020 @10:32AM (#25101915)
Correct.

Certain kinds of lithium batteries can be limited by the availability of other elements used in them, which are less abundant than Li, e.g. cobalt.

There are efforts to reduce or eliminate the use of such elements.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Robotbeat on Sunday November 15, 2020 @10:45AM (#25102018)
Yup, and worth pointing out such chemistries are already common, although slightly heavier. Lithium iron phosphate, for instance, which also tends to be safer and have longer cycle life, has improved to the point that Tesla is planning on using it for low cost versions of Model 3 (and/or whatever their $25k model will be called), as is already common for electric cars there. Iron and phosphorous are very common and cheap.

So there are lots of alternative batter chemistries that all have lithium as the common element.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by CrazyCatDog on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:27AM (#25102353)
LiFePo4 is a fantastic middle ground between Li-ion and LiPo—I made out like a bandit at the end of the Obama administration when all the green startups went belly-up; Chinese LiFePo4 cells were a dirt cheap and ubiquitous in California back then. I still use some of those cells to charge Lipo cells in the field.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by tomc1985 on Sunday November 15, 2020 @03:26PM (#25104494)
Internal combustion engines don't degrade to uselessness after three years
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by pengaru on Sunday November 15, 2020 @03:40PM (#25104611)
Nor do electric motors.

Rings, cylinders, valve seats, there are plenty of ICE components that wear out or coke up long before anything on a brushless electric motor will.

It makes more sense to compare batteries to tires and brakes; they're wear items. And their cost will keep dropping as their scale of manufacture increases exponentially until the economics start resembling tires too.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by stjohnswarts on Sunday November 15, 2020 @07:59PM (#25106722)
Are you joking? Electrical motors can go for decades before they need replacing if they're built well. Same with electronics. Contrary to HN bits don't rot, electronics fail though over time depending on robustness. Just because you don't update to the latest and greatest every couple of weeks doesn't mean anything if the device you're using is serving it's purpose well enough. I'm not sure where you're getting "3 years and you're done" from.
Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by throwaway0a5e on Sunday November 15, 2020 @10:06PM (#25107526)
Are you joking?

The kinds of electric motors that go for decades with just a couple pumps of grease are reserved for industrial applications because their economics doesn't make sense for consumers most of the time.

I like my cordless drills and grinder but I'm not delusional enough to compare them to industrial motors that are twice (or more, they tend to have massive cases) as heavy for the power output and live for decades. I have a 15hp motor kicking around that dwarfs a Tesla motor in every way except output. That kind of stuff is monumentally inefficient for any non-stationary use.

3yr and you're done sounds about right for consumer battery degradation in hard use. How long a battery lasts is basically a reflection of how nice you are to it in terms of charge and discharge cycles and how much reserve capacity you want to tote around.

We've got electric motors pretty much down and can build them for just about any use case but for a given longevity vs power output batteries are still pretty bulky for the output you get.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by Amezarak on Monday November 16, 2020 @11:44AM (#25113782)
> Are you joking? Electrical motors can go for decades before they need replacing if they're built well. Same with electronics. Contrary to HN bits don't rot, electronics fail though over time depending on robustness.

This is a mighty big "if."

Re: electronics, the electronics are by far the highest-failure item in ICE cars and in the mechanical appliances I own. Indeed, every failure I've had in cars I own and those of my family owns has in the past ~15 years been an electronic problem. That's only usually been the case with appliances and tools.

Re:Electrified wingsuit from BMW reaches 186MPH on first flight by usrusr on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:16PM (#25106850)
Nondegrading motors and electronics are indeed fine if you never leave the range defined by you -charging- pardon operating cable.