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Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by grey-area on Sunday November 15, 2020 @04:32AM (#25099655)
2020, or more likely 2016 will perhaps be seen as a turning point in the fortunes of the US Republic, when the democracy began to unravel, the law was used as a weapon against enemies, and the rule of law was replaced by mob rule with different factions warring in the streets.

The parallels between the US at this moment and pre-war Europe or Rome at the time of the Catiline conspiracy are striking - the centre cannot hold, and the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by mensetmanusman on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:08AM (#25100891)
Historians actually point to Vietnam as the point when the average American gave up on their government.

Once that happened, the government gave up on the average American, allowed middle class jobs to disappear, and spent more time joining global virtue signaling parties and subsidizing bombs in Yemen than fixing lead pipes in cities.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by tomjen3 on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:33AM (#25102390)
Why is there some conspiracy for the US government to allow good jobs to leave? They didn't have to do anything, all that happened was that the rest of the world had rebuilt their bombed out factories and gotten their economy on track. Once the oil crises hit, that was that.
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by mensetmanusman on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:31PM (#25102922)
The government allowed companies to lower environmental and worker safety standards by outsourcing overseas without including tariffs as a function of said standards.

See, the things we buy wouldn’t be so cheap if we didn’t let some companies in china dump toxic waste for free.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by dane-pgp on Sunday November 15, 2020 @02:43PM (#25104094)
I sort of agree with you about using tariffs (at least for issues of global effect, like climate change), but do you think the US government should have a policy goal of making products more expensive for American consumers and/or reducing the amount of toxic waste dumped in China?
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by mensetmanusman on Sunday November 15, 2020 @03:02PM (#25104270)
Not more expensive per se, but more truthfully priced.

E.g. cheap rare earth minerals from China are only cheap because we are borrowing from the future people who will pay to clean up the mess.

When we more accurately price the real cost of goods by quantifying damage to the worker’s health, global environment, etc. then outsourcing would not look nearly as attractive.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by dane-pgp on Sunday November 15, 2020 @02:34PM (#25104025)
> more time joining global virtue signaling parties

Could you give some examples of these parties and an estimate of how much time was spent on them? I could try to guess what you're referring to, but I don't want to put words into your mouth.

(An uncharitable interpretation of what you said would lead me to believe that you're objecting not to "virtue signaling" but to virtue itself, which is not a helpful assumption for me to make).

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by watwut on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:32AM (#25101457)
Which historians? I read quite a loud of American history lately and this is first time I see this claim.
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by watwut on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:31PM (#25103453)
It is not really historians and it does not really push the narrative of government "given up on citizens as reaction to them not trusting government".

Government and citizens are not even two super distinct entities, government are citizens and is put in place by citizens.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by mensetmanusman on Sunday November 15, 2020 @03:05PM (#25104295)
Generally one side of America so gave up on government that a guiding principal of ‘starve the beast’ (that has done so much damage to our young) became dominant.

Once people with that world view actually enter government, they don’t have a lot of desire to use government for what it could be used for in terms of helping citizens instead of consolidating powers as a function of lobbying dollars.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by jrootabega on Sunday November 15, 2020 @10:08AM (#25101725)
You wouldn't know him, he goes to a different school.
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by chrononaut on Sunday November 15, 2020 @07:22AM (#25100619)
Hm.. perhaps in the faceless namespace that is the Internet, but much of that interaction hasn't yet percolated into every day life of the vast majority of individuals. Any person not participating in these exchanges and these networks might not even recognize that these heated interactions are happening.

Another part of the complication (fortunately) is that there is also no "real life" external markers that separate us on these issues. You may know where people stand on the Internet about issues, but step outside and it's a sea of ambiguity with every individual you meet. And at that point, people just go about their day treating everyone with respect. (At least in the same amount they have been the last 60 years, which in some cases is not much respect)

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by h2odragon on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:48AM (#25101136)
Masks are becoming that. Considering the science of how much a cloth mask can do to save us from a virus, its hard not to suspect the social signal might be the point.
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by jahewson on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:43PM (#25103039)
You didn’t notice the flags, bumper stickers and hats?
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by caf on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:47AM (#25101133)
...when the democracy began to unravel, the law was used as a weapon against enemies, and the rule of law was replaced by mob rule with different factions warring in the streets.

This could have easily been written about the late 1960s / early 1970s, though - the assassination of Bobby Kennedy, the 1968 Democratic National Convention, Hoover's FBI and COINTELPRO, the Black Panthers, the Weather Underground and Watergate.

The top wobbled but righted itself; perhaps it will do so again.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by pydry on Sunday November 15, 2020 @06:15AM (#25100247)
It seems less of a turning point and more of a "squeeze the accelerator even harder" year. It was almost all a continuation of existing trends.

I have a dreadful feeling that the turning point for all of this societal dysfunction will be following the aftermath of a world war.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by eternalban on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:23AM (#25100991)
I would not lose sleep over a world war. The social classes (globally) that are flooring the accelerator have no desire to glow in the dark. And we're not in lockdown globally so that the elite can spend time in bunkers deep underground.

We're in lockdown so that elite privileges ("Grand Tour", etc.) can be restored, while the "common man" is put in his or her place, with strict regiments governing thought, speech, action, and movement. It is wise to ignore the cultural and political stun and smoke grenades, and pay attention to what is actually happening in real world. As usual, follow the money.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by pydry on Sunday November 15, 2020 @10:49AM (#25102045)
It's funny, there's a scene at the beginning of the play "an inspector calls" (set just before WW1) that mirrors exactly what you just said. I think it was a historical callback to a real, commonly held opinion at the time ("the interests of capital" was how he phrased it).

I don't think our elites particularly want a world war either. I think they're perfectly prepared to push us in that direction in an attempt to cling on to their wealth and power though. They will prefer liberalism but they'll support far right populist who protects their property if that fails to garner popular support.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by ahelwer on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:17AM (#25102273)
The difference is nukes.
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by goodluckchuck on Sunday November 15, 2020 @07:59AM (#25100827)
> the democracy began to unravel, the law was used as a weapon against enemies, and the rule of law was replaced by mob rule with different factions warring in the streets.

I think a lot of those are good things and things we’ve been taught to over-value, without regard for their dangers and without an appreciation for the attendant responsibilities. The country was founded with a HEAVY skepticism of democracy. It allowed for some democratic influence, but the constitution goes to great lengths to restrain, channel, and temper the will of the people. It was adopted at a time when voting was highly regulated and limited to people who were considered best qualified to handle the responsibility. Even today the Constitution contemplates that presidents should be elected, not by the people directly, but by their state legislators. The whole idea of allowing direct democracy in presidential elections is a cop-out by legislators who’ve found a way to avoid that responsibility.

Same with using the law as a sword... that’s largely how it’s supposed to work. This idea that the FBI should be independent flies in the face of having 3 branches. It’s impractical. They’re humans, they also have axes to grind. The difference is that they’re appointed and not easily removed. Leadership is human and will therefore always enforce the law according to whatever axe they have to grind. The goal of a successful republic should be to accept, channel, and utilize that human nature.

However, I agree that there is an overarching crisis in the form of the internet which is destabilizing entrenched powers the same way the printing press did (leading to the renaissance).

A lot of it also comes from the renaissance itself and traditional media. It remains true that there are people who are responsible and learned enough in maters of government to be able to vote, and others who aren’t. However the old rules of racism and sexism have - for all their terrible faults - also lost their utility in this respect. You government can’t count on “white landowning men of good character” to be a ‘superior’ pool to draw insight from. Since our economy is no longer 99.9% agricultural, being “a landowner” is no longer a guarantee that landowners are among the most prosperous and responsible individuals. Now many of our most informed and influential people own little to no land, and those that own modest acreage may be far less knowledgeable.

Women and non-whites are (rightfully) now allowed to be and actually are very well educated and experienced in having serious responsibilities, etc.

So it’s very hard to effectively discriminate between high-quality and low-quality voters...

Meanwhile everyone is almost socially required to care about politics, to be informed, hold opinions, vote, speak out, etc. when there are frankly a lot of people in the world who have other shit going on in their lives and who don’t have the time and resources to waste worrying about politics. Simply not knowing and not caring is viewed as some sort of sin, by both sides, because they view these people a potential votes they could win. I think this is where a lot of the pandering and vitriol is created, because things have to seem super clear to get people - who don’t want to care - to care. Even if you don’t know the first thing about politics, you know the nazis are the bad guys and the communists are the bad guys... Soo, yes, that’s who the other side is!

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by jeremyjh on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:42AM (#25101550)
State legislatures do not elect the president in any state in this country. The constitution gives them the power to determine the manner of selecting the electors. Under this power, all states have laws created by the legislature to delegate the power to select the electors via popular vote of all resident citizens.
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by jimbob45 on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:29PM (#25103445)
Bullshit, buddy. Ant getting target-tanked by China means America is still the best place for innovation and risk-taking.

Every generation thinks they have it the worst.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by blackrock on Sunday November 15, 2020 @05:56AM (#25100118)
Why can’t the dissenting States just secede from the Union?

It is a democracy after all.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by Rick1 on Sunday November 15, 2020 @05:59AM (#25100143)
Well some have tried. There was a civil war about it.
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by axaxs on Sunday November 15, 2020 @10:09AM (#25101742)
Exactly. Many of the people who make civil war/anti south jokes are the same people who want California to secede, which makes no sense.

In its simplest form, the civil war wasn't fought because the north thought slavery was bad. It was fought because several states tried to leave the United States.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by ceejayoz on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:06AM (#25102172)
Why did they try to leave, again?

Hint: Most of the secession declarations include language like this:

> But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by axaxs on Sunday November 15, 2020 @11:35AM (#25102418)
Sigh, I never made a claim as to why the south left. Slavery is not the reason for the war, secession is. You can easily make the case that slavery was the reason for secession, which isn't wrong, but a moot point. If states had seceded because they didn't like tea, we'd still have had a war.
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by jahewson on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:58PM (#25103188)
> Many of the people who make civil war/anti south jokes are the same people who want California to secede

Citation needed.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by ufmace on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:18AM (#25101343)
Even if it was made legally possible for states to secede, I doubt it would help much - we're all too mixed up with each other. The Bluest states all have a lot of Red in their more rural areas, and the Reddest states all have a lot of Blue in their biggest cities.

If such a thing were to happen, the states that ended up on each side would probably end up doubling down on the oppression of those in the other tribe who are still in their state, to encourage them to move to a state that's on their side.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by coldtea on Sunday November 15, 2020 @07:15AM (#25100575)
It's not a democracy, it's a federal republic.
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by d_e_solomon on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:21AM (#25101379)
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by KMag on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:10AM (#25100904)
It's a constitutional republic / representative democracy. Republics and democracies aren't mutually exclusive. It's certainly not a direct democracy, but that doesn't make it not a democracy.
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by ekianjo on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:58AM (#25101208)
In a pure democracy there is no such thing as a constitution, as in the underlying principles can be changed by the majority in power. Having a constitution leads to more stability.
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by Brakenshire on Sunday November 15, 2020 @07:48AM (#25100772)
It’s curious that the country/federation that introduced the concept of self-determination doesn’t allow self-determination for its constituent states.
Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:02AM (#25100854)
> country/federation that introduced the concept of self-determination doesn’t allow self-determination for its constituent states

Individual self determination.

If a local majority secedes every time it wants to trample on a minority, or in the case of the civil war, an oppressed majority, two things happen: one, politics devolve into fractured feudalism. Local elites have a mechanism for wresting absolute control. That, not the Constitution or a Bill of Rights or elections, becomes the basic unit of power.

Two, our two-plus century record of peace on the homeland shatters. Every election or court case found unseemly by a contiguous local majority prompts a Twitter and existential crisis. Foreign adversaries hammer the wedge and split the nation into warring vassal states and too-small-to-matter opposing countries.

Re:Conservatives flock to Parler, claiming censorship on Fac... by giantg2 on Sunday November 15, 2020 @10:45AM (#25102022)
It sort of does, in theory anyways. The constitution states that the government can be dissolved when the people feel it's necessary. That's not based on a single state though. But, the states should have a lot of power within their boarders, but it seems the 10th ammendment is often ignored and the judiciary fails to check the legislature on its overreach.