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Re:macOS Big Sur by lukifer on Thursday November 12, 2020 @01:55PM (#25073384)
Twice bitten, thrice shy. Every MacOS upgrade for the past 5+ years has been a bag of hurt: regressions in functionality and stability, annoying "features" like Notification Center and Catalina warning nags, various PITAs on fixing UNIX/dev toolchains, all for little to no benefit. I've stopped upgrading all my machines (other than security updates), unless forced by a mission-critical app or a new machine.
Re:macOS Big Sur by lexusgx on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:27PM (#25075302)
>Catalina warning nags

I appreciate those nags. Those nags clued me into app behavior; I learned what apps are requesting keyboard access even when they're not in focus, for instance. Blindly trusting our apps to access our keyboards and not gradually become keyloggers is a recurring problem in our industry, it seems, so that was a very welcome change.

Re:macOS Big Sur by elcritch on Thursday November 12, 2020 @06:01PM (#25076438)
The nags for regular apps don’t bother me too much, but the fact that I still can’t figure out how to run GDB worries me. The old CLI overrides don’t work in Catalina anymore. I’ve only ever owned Mac laptops and I’m seriously considering switching to a Linux/arm on the next laptop. I’m fine with the lack of ability to run random apps on my iPad, but not on my computer. Big Sur apparently won’t let me run the ZFS extensions or my vpn software (or I gotta hope the vpn has an upgrade). Apple has gone too far, from improved security defaults to whittling away the ability to override those options at all and run my own software.
Re:macOS Big Sur by Osiris on Thursday November 12, 2020 @07:35PM (#25077317)
I switched to Linux after the TouchBar was introduced. I've been using it for work exclusively for 3 years. It crashes, hangs, and generally acts weird every day. It's not always greener on the other side.

The upside is 1) total customization, 2) if there is a problem you have a lot more power to fix it. There are just a lot more problems.

Here's a list of my daily Linux issues (NVIDIA driver required to use external monitors)

1. Resume from sleep causes browsers and electron apps to fail to draw anything. I have to close and restart them. I found a workaround for Chrome (turn on Vulkan) but that's not possible for Slack.

2. Periodically Linux reports I have no internal speakers and I have to kick pulseaudio

3. NVIDIA driver page faults several times a day requiring me to unplug, replug monitors and run xrandr to reconfigure the displays.

4. After an upgrade my system now boots to TTY and I can't figure out how to fix it.

5. Zoom annotations don't work

6. Discord audio didn't work until I found an obscure workaround.

7. External monitor detection doesn't work

8. The laptop display doesn't go into power saving mode ever

9. Usb devices have to be unplugged/replugged to be detected

10. Complete system crashes (hang with no recognition of any input, so no way to switch to TTY)

So, pros and cons.

edit: I should note that the last Macbook (2017 I think) would kernel panic randomly when connecting or disconnecting external monitors (like when going to a meeting).

Re:macOS Big Sur by jackcviers3 on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:45AM (#25079668)
You need a laptop with verified compatible hardware.

I run an IdeaPad p400 with Ubuntu 20.04. Everything just works. Had a sager and a System76 that worked without issues, too.

Sometimes, it's the hardware that's the problem. Had a Dell and an HP for work that were so bad with Ubuntu that I had to give them up entirely for Linux machines.

Honestly, my next laptop is going to be a System76, top of the line model. If it can last as long as my Lenovo (2010, I think), it will be money well spent.

Re:macOS Big Sur by Osiris on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:01PM (#25085306)
It's a System76 laptop that comes with PopOS preinstalled.
Re:macOS Big Sur by ryukafalz on Thursday November 12, 2020 @08:31PM (#25077778)
4, 7, and 10 are issues I've only experienced on systems running the proprietary NVIDIA driver. The cause isn't always clear, but I've easily had the most unexplainable graphical issues/crashes on my desktop with a GTX 980 compared to any of my Intel laptops running very similar software. Tend to chalk it up to that as a result.
Re:macOS Big Sur by nitrogen on Thursday November 12, 2020 @09:31PM (#25078152)
The cause (on Debian/Ubuntu/etc) is often DKMS not updating the kernel module. It's often possible to find a better error message in /var/log/Xorg.0.log or in dmesg (for X11; I have never used Wayland and probably won't until X11 is completely removed, so can't help you there).
Re:macOS Big Sur by Osiris on Thursday November 12, 2020 @09:15PM (#25078058)
Unfortunately I have to use that driver to support the external monitors on my laptop because the display ports are directly wired to the nvidia GPU and the open source one doesn't work at all for me.
Re:macOS Big Sur by elcritch on Thursday November 12, 2020 @09:36PM (#25078174)
Stuff like this is why I haven't decided. Hopefully the new Arm laptops like the Pinebook or MNT reform will (eventually) provide better integrated experience. That route would be a lighter laptop + long battery mainly to remote into an amd ryzen desktop. LTE connectivity is pretty amazing these days. Though Apple still wins for fit and polish..
Re:macOS Big Sur by ben-schaaf on Friday November 13, 2020 @12:44AM (#25079299)
I have the same problem. Luckily working from home means I don't have to touch my laptop any more and I can instead use the rx580 in my desktop, haven't really had any graphics problems with the AMD open source drivers.
Re:macOS Big Sur by comex on Thursday November 12, 2020 @07:51PM (#25077447)
Big Sur removed network kernel extensions (NKEs) in favor of a different API (NetworkExtension) to accomplish the same thing in userspace, but it didn't affect filesystem kernel extensions.

For GDB, the instructions on the GDB wiki should still work on Big Sur, and they actually last changed in the release before Catalina:

https://sourceware.org/gdb/wiki/PermissionsDarwin

Re:macOS Big Sur by _fat_santa on Thursday November 12, 2020 @02:07PM (#25073565)
I have similar feelings. On the one hand I would love to check out the new version of MacOS. On the other hand I use my machine for work and can't afford any downtime.

I upgraded to Catalina 5-8 months after it was released, mostly because the initial rollout was so rocky (at least according to the articles on HN).

Going to keep my eyes peeled for reviews here in the next few weeks. Hopefully this is a more stable release than Catalina.

Re:macOS Big Sur by acdha on Thursday November 12, 2020 @02:55PM (#25074117)
> I upgraded to Catalina 5-8 months after it was released, mostly because the initial rollout was so rocky (at least according to the articles on HN).

The last part is the key: people who have problems usually complain loudly and widely, so there's a huge sampling bias. I've been using and supporting Macs professionally since the 90s. In that time, I've had exactly one case where a day one upgrade broke something — 10.4 shipped with a bug where all NFS exports were read-only — as long as you did a check first to confirm that any commercial software you were using was supporting (e.g. Adobe sometimes had fairly long delays).

There are two common problems you'll see frequently: a system which was already failing will be attributed to the new OS (I've seen people claim it broke their hard drive, when it was really just the first problem which couldn't be excused as a fluke), and people will often say that their system got slow because Spotlight / Photos were reindexing in the background.

Re:macOS Big Sur by alwillis on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:34PM (#25074582)
Going to keep my eyes peeled for reviews here in the next few weeks. Hopefully this is a more stable release than Catalina.

I had several problems with the early releases of Catalina, including my Apple-made USB keyboard not being recognized.

Even after it seemingly was fixed, a dot release would break it again. I did at least two clean installs to resolve the problem once a stable version of Catalina was released.

It's completely different with Big Sur. I upgraded my work machine to Big Sur. After the Spotlight indexing was done, everything was working as it was previously, except I had the latest and greatest operating system.

It's still only been a few days but so far, I have no complaints about Big Sur.

Loving the new desktop dynamic illustrations and how much faster Safari is, even compared to Catalina.

Obviously YMMV but so far, it's been smooth sailing with Big Sur.

Re:macOS Big Sur by jamil7 on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:43PM (#25074716)
I’ve been on it since one of the earlier betas for testing reasons and it’s been a bumpy ride, I’ve filed more feedback than before. It’s definitely stabilised a lot though and feels reasonably solid today. There’s a few nagging visual bugs and weird performance spikes floating around though.
Re:macOS Big Sur by vmchale on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:06PM (#25074237)
My speakers were sporadically broken after Catalina lol.
Re:macOS Big Sur by FabHK on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:59PM (#25086020)
Hardware problem, or just no sound? I've found that force-quitting `coreaudiod` would fix missing sound.
Re:macOS Big Sur by pkulak on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:16PM (#25074353)
Same here. I eventually upgraded to a Linux distro and couldn't be happier.

What finally did it for me was when I did an "ls" in a terminal after an upgrade, accidentally hit the wrong button when the OS asked for permission, and locked my terminal out of file system access. Mac OS is no longer any good for professional use, outside of media creation.

Re:macOS Big Sur by azinman2 on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:39PM (#25074656)
You can easily change the permissions in settings. This is a security feature.
Re:macOS Big Sur by rch on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:39PM (#25074658)
What's the best ~15" Linux laptop to ask for as a new hire these days?
Re:macOS Big Sur by rashkov on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:23PM (#25075252)
Really enjoying my Thinkpad x390, which is 13", but I'd easily go for a 15" version of this machine.

I had a 2016 Dell Xps 15" and both me and my coworker with the same machine had terrible issues with the keyboard randomly writing letters twice in a row. Also the on-board nvidia graphics card, while nice, was also a big power hog and that system had bad battery life until I turned it off. After a couple of years, the battery puffed up and started pushing up on the trackpad until it was unusable. Really soured me on Dell's build quality, and I can't recommend them at all, even though I admire their support for linux drivers.

Re:macOS Big Sur by paulsmal on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:00PM (#25074958)
Dell XPS 15, Thinkpads
Re:macOS Big Sur by Lio on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:06AM (#25079780)
XPS13 is very good for Linux but I don’t think I’d recommend an XPS15. Dell don’t sell them with Linux themselves.

You’d be better looking at the Precision line if you want a 15” Dell with Linux.

Re:macOS Big Sur by fsflover on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:56PM (#25075642)
Re:macOS Big Sur by rch on Thursday November 12, 2020 @06:33PM (#25076795)
I think one of those or system76 will be my next personal laptop, but I hadn't seen any around the office yet (back when that was a possibility).
Re:macOS Big Sur by gen3 on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:49PM (#25074790)
I haven't had an issue with Dell laptops.
Re:macOS Big Sur by ska on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:47PM (#25075536)
Over many years, models, and indirectly hundreds of laptops (buying for teams, not myself) I'm pretty confident that Dells have a higher failure rate than many alternatives, but if you buy the higher tier support they are also more responsive than most. NB if you fall back on out of warranty and/or lower tier from them, support is not good.
Re:macOS Big Sur by patrec on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:40PM (#25074668)
> Mac OS is no longer any good for professional use, outside of media creation.

I agree, and I bet they will kick themselves for it in ~5 years time.

Re:macOS Big Sur by greggman3 on Thursday November 12, 2020 @11:38PM (#25078929)
What makes it good at media creation? AFAICT almost all the major creation apps are cross platform. Further, there are entire media creation industries that are majority non-mac. CGI movie effects (Industrial Light & Magic, Sony Pictures, ...), CGI animation (Pixar, Dreamworks, Disney), Game Dev, VR, etc...
Re:macOS Big Sur by pfranz on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:27AM (#25080272)
> What makes it good at media creation?

Technically, probably nothing unless you're tied to something like Final Cut. I like little things like obj (geometry), abc (geometry), and exr (image/textures) files can be previewed in Finder/Quickview out of the box. Quicktime is way better than what Windows offers by default (I miss Quicktime 7)--I'm not sure Windows can open Apple ProRes movies (a fairly common working format) without additional software.

ILM, Sony, Pixar, DreamWorks, and Disney aren't great examples since they all use Linux. For the few artists that need it, they have a second Windows or Mac box just for Photoshop. Because of their size they use Linux and a lot of in-house proprietary tools. There's like 10-30 companies in the world that work like this so it's not a great comparison for someone doing motion graphics bumpers for the web or making TV commercials--I would not recommend Linux for them.

Re:macOS Big Sur by greedo on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:45PM (#25074734)
Any "professional" who can't spend two minutes googling how to reset this doesn't deserve the title.
Re:macOS Big Sur by shangxiao on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:54PM (#25074852)
"Professional use" just means to use in your profession, not that they are claiming to be an IT expert.
Re:macOS Big Sur by zepto on Thursday November 12, 2020 @07:38PM (#25077341)
In this case, it means they are typing Unix commands into a shell. That suggests that their profession involves IT.
Re:macOS Big Sur by pkulak on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:41PM (#25075459)
I'd argue that fighting your tools is the _least_ acceptable in a professional setting.
Re:macOS Big Sur by nuker on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:53AM (#25082801)
Some people complain that microwaves kill cats instead of drying them, YMMV.
Re:macOS Big Sur by grishka on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:04PM (#25075023)
I'm still on Mojave and it's okay honestly. It does everything I need my OS to do. I see no benefit in upgrading to Catalina, especially with it not supporting 32-bit apps and introducing new annoyances under the guise of "security", and Big Sur doesn't (officially) run on my computer at all.
Re:macOS Big Sur by dividedbyzero on Thursday November 12, 2020 @07:12PM (#25077120)
Granular app permissions are a huge thing for me; I really like being able to keep certain apps from having e.g. full disk access or camera access. Plus sidecar, as sibling already mentioned.
Re:macOS Big Sur by grishka on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:32AM (#25079945)
Mojave has some of these. Except I don't like filesystem permissions, e.g. "access to photos" which is really "access to ~/Pictures". I'm fine with unix permissions on files and directories. I wish internet access was a permission instead.

As far as Sidecar goes, I don't own an iPad and don't plan to, so not relevant to me by any stretch of imagination.

Re:macOS Big Sur by timmit on Thursday November 12, 2020 @05:20PM (#25075962)
sidecar is one thing I like from Catalina.
Re:macOS Big Sur by seanalltogether on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:58PM (#25074919)
Unfortunately for me, Xcode is mission critical, and Apple always restricts updates to it about 6 months into any new OS.
Re:macOS Big Sur by eyeball on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:50PM (#25074815)
I still haven’t take Catalina update.
Re:macOS Big Sur by tofuahdude on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:40PM (#25075453)
Totally agreed. There's always disasters.

I have a friend who effectively works on code quality at apple who's always talking about how seriously they take this kind of stuff... and yet, there are without fail always issues in their flagship OS releases. I don't get it.

Re:macOS Big Sur by srmatto on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:00PM (#25074967)
Same, every year since 10.13 I am offset about one year from the current MacOS release so a few weeks ago I upgraded to Catalina/10.15.7.
Re:macOS Big Sur by GnarfGnarf on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:07PM (#25075061)
Have you tried dual-booting the newest OS from an SD or USB memory card? Hold down the Option key at power on and it prompts you for boot device.

It runs a bit slower, but at least you can try it out.

Re:macOS Big Sur by lukifer on Thursday November 12, 2020 @05:30PM (#25076081)
True, that's an option; but there's been nothing in new releases that justifies going through the effort (for my own n=1, anyway). It's not that the new releases are awful; they're just a hassle that fail a cost-benefit analysis.
Re:macOS Big Sur by GnarfGnarf on Monday November 16, 2020 @02:48PM (#25116135)
I take your point. I don't have a choice, I have to confirm my app runs on the latest version because some of my customers will be going there :o)
Re:macOS Big Sur by bromuro on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:19PM (#25075194)
I am one of those that likes to keep my mac updated to latest. I never have been hit by a problem when upgrading in the last 5 years so i have still full confidence on this one :)
Re:macOS Big Sur by chaostheory on Friday November 13, 2020 @07:31PM (#25089183)
So far this one has been great... for me. Everything feels faster now and I'm digging the new UI. I'm pleasantly surprised.
Re:macOS Big Sur by r00fus on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:49PM (#25074795)
I've been fine. Of course I wait till at least 2 dot releases afterwards.
Re:macOS Big Sur by agumonkey on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:40PM (#25075456)
I feel like Apple exploded due to synergies between mac / ipod then iphone iwatch but now they're falling into the unified trap (a bit like MS did)
Re:macOS Big Sur by markdown on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:31PM (#25075358)
Same. I'm still on Mojave