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Re:Ableton Live 11 by 1_player on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @10:34AM (#25059171)
As a UI and UX nerd, one thing I really love about the digital music production scene is that software companies writing DAWs and VSTs know their audience and strive to give power users all the tools they need to be as productive as possible. Knobs, curves, programming (Max for Live), integration with external tools.

In other fields of software development instead we dumb everything down to the lowest denominator, and power users can't be at their most productive because we're scared of complexity and build around the casual, computer illiterate user.

Imagine what Ableton would look like if they were only optimising for the user that wants to put a couple of pre-made loops together and call it a song.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by packetlost on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @10:49AM (#25059313)
You'd end up with GarageBand. It all depends on the target audience. If you have a piece of software meant to be used by experts, it should be powerful enough that it doesn't restrict them.

I disagree that software has a tendency to dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator, simplifying and automating things is the purpose of software in the first place, but there's a huge amount of software out there that is as powerful as it needs to be. To name a few examples: Blender, DaVinci Resolve, almost everything Adobe makes, and JetBrain's IDEs.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by robenkleene on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @02:50PM (#25062177)
It's actually amazing how consistent the pattern is for professional creative apps, I did a study of market leaders across various industries[1] (based on the best data I could fine), and every single one supports some form of extension. Just doing a quick eye-ball glance, and I'd guess every single one of the apps I looked at also supports some form of scripting.

(This is only tangentially relevant to this thread, but the iOS App Store doesn't allow extensions or scriptable apps, and I believe those rules will single-handedly assure iPad only ever has marginal impact on creative fields until those rules are removed.)

1: https://blog.robenkleene.com/2019/08/07/apples-app-stores-ha...

Re:Ableton Live 11 by packetlost on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:07PM (#25062392)
Anyone who works in a specialized field (or hobbyists) can tell you the iPad will never be a "pro" device for any serious work outside of art/digital painting. iOS is simply just too limiting, and Apple intentionally neuters the App store to protect the lowest common denominator from shooting themselves in the foot with malware.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by deeblering4 on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @05:58PM (#25064034)
Since music making is art I guess I won’t disagree.

There’s a large ecosystem of iOS music making apps and the iPad is actually an excellent interface for some applications, e.g. a kaoss pad.

For instance have a look at what Korg and Moog have available in the app store. Or check out drambo.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by dharma1 on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:23PM (#25062562)
I think you could have a really good iOS DAW, I think Apple will release Logic for iPad pro at some point. But yes some of the iOS architecture is a bit weird, in terms of apps/plugins/files silos.

I think the "no windows" and sandboxed apps/files paradigms are very limiting for pro work.

And you really need lots of customisable keyboard shortcuts for most pro work, most iOS apps are extremely lacking in this department.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by packetlost on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:31PM (#25062637)
FL Studio mobile is already quite capable, and I'm sure Logic for iPad would be great. But most DAWs make heavy use of plugins/VSTs to provide extensibility to the environment, and I highly doubt that will be supported. Why would you use an iPad over a MBP for that kind of thing? I can't imagine the touch-screen gives any sort of real advantage.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by dharma1 on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:53PM (#25062857)
iOS does support audio/synth plugins in the form of AUv3, it's a little bit clunky but works.

I work primarily with Logic (been using it for 20 years) but the form factor of an iPad is pretty nice - it fits perfectly on music stands and laptops don't. If Macbook screens would tilt 180 degrees, all the way flat, you might be able to use them on music stands too - but they don't.

If you are both playing and recording a real instrument at the same time, having the iPad on the the piano/music stand in front of you is very useful. Many people use Logic Remote on iPad on the stand, and Logic on MBP for actual recording at the same time. But not sure why you should need two devices.

Touch screen is nice for some things too, like mixing or quickly toggling things.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by arvinsim on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @07:56PM (#25065024)
I wonder how iOS Logic Pro would handle plugins.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by dharma1 on Thursday November 12, 2020 @02:31AM (#25067403)
The same way as iOS Garageband handles AUv3 now, I assume.

AUv3 plugins are meant to be able to run on both MacOS and iOS in the near future (this has caused some concern in the plugin dev community, because of different pricing models). Just in iOS they are apps you install from the app store, because everything that executes code needs to be a sandboxed app in iOS.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by arvinsim on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:21AM (#25067680)
Okay, I do see why it would affect pricing then if they are forced to be in the App store. I always thought that they would be handled the same way as desktop.

In any case, I am still waiting for Logic Pro or Ableton to be ported to the iPad.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by teucris on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:36PM (#25062693)
I have been using Ableton Live for music production for over a decade, and I can say that if it were ported to work on my iPad, I’d use it every day.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by whatch on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @04:13PM (#25063049)
Or Android.

Actually I was impressed with what people do in GarageBand on ios. Unfortunately I haven't found anything comparable for Android. Only ridiculous $20/month apps.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by bsder on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @06:47PM (#25064418)
Blame Google. Android has a craptastic audio stack and only Google can fix it.

Google would have to rip the heart out of Android and fix it for real time programming properly like OS X did way back in like 10.2?.

However, don't get me wrong, iOS isn't great--it's just at least possible. The fact that you can't actually send a defined packet (just a bag of bytes and you don't know how many until the call--"HAH! HAH! You device decided to prioritize something in the OS and your latency just quadrupled--sucks to be you.") to the Audio system on iOS is infuriating.

However, at least it's possible on iOS. On Android, not so much.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by whatch on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @07:12PM (#25064620)
> Android has a craptastic audio stack

Didn't know. Looks like I'm little closer to replacing my android with iphone

Re:Ableton Live 11 by arvinsim on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @07:55PM (#25065016)
Do you use your phone to create music?
Re:Ableton Live 11 by whatch on Thursday November 12, 2020 @12:34AM (#25066793)
I liked videos on "iSongs" youtube channel and wanted to play with GarageBand to try some ideas without full-blown DAW. I am just starting and looking for what works for me.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by packetlost on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:40PM (#25062719)
What advantages do you think it offers over using a MBP?
Re:Ableton Live 11 by teucris on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:47PM (#25062783)
1) The launch grid (I forget it’s proper name) is an increasingly common pattern in touch-based music apps; I want to touch the Ableton one. Especially in live performance.

2)The form factor of an iPad makes more sense in my music setup, in that I don’t need to haul podium or standing desk on stage as well as my instruments.

3. In producing tracks, most of my time is spent twiddling knobs, adjusting levels, etc, rather than dealing with external audio interfaces or doing fine grained, fiddly things with a mouse. But now iOS supports a mouse, so I could even do that...

Re:Ableton Live 11 by luplex on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @07:31PM (#25064789)
You should check out bitwig studio on a Surface tablet! They have had an optimized Multitouch UX mode for a few years now, and it looks pretty good.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by mastazi on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @09:35PM (#25065793)
IIRC Bitwig was actually featured in the Surface launch event (I think it was the very first generation of the Surface tablet, I might be wrong though).
Re:Ableton Live 11 by dumpsterdiver on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @04:28PM (#25063207)
One advantage is that recording drum pad sessions would be more convenient on an iPad (you could just tap out a beat right on the screen). On the other hand, there's something to be said for high quality midi controllers that allow you to do the same.

For instance, an iPad would be a great place to experiment and get an idea down, and then you could bring the idea to your other, more professionally oriented tools.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by BuildTheRobots on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @04:14PM (#25063061)
> everything Adobe makes

When Lightroom moved from v6 (iirc) to Creative Cloud a stunning amount of functionality seems to have been lost for the sake of making it idiot friendly.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by dumpsterdiver on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @04:36PM (#25063313)
I was really let down when Adobe After Effects removed the ability to randomize "effect groups" (for lack of a better name, basically a group of layered effects that creates a single, easily recognizable effect, such as "grainy movie film").

I spent so many hours playing with that thing. Don't get me wrong, I still do, but now I have to make all those tweaks manually instead of rolling the dice and hoping for a gem. Sadly, I don't find nearly as many gems as I used to when I was able to roll the dice.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by codetrotter on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @07:20PM (#25064690)
I haven't used AE myself, but I use many of the other Adobe products and I know that many (perhaps all or close to all) of them have scripting support, so I decided to do a quick Google search for AE scripting guides.

A couple of results came up, one is an official PDF about scripting AE CS6, the other a website about AE scripting. I assume most of the stuff from the AE CS6 PDF applies to AE CC as well.

https://blogs.adobe.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/48/files/2012/0...

https://docs.aenhancers.com

From the PDF:

> When you use Adobe After Effects, you create projects, compositions, and render queue items along with all of the elements that they contain: footage, images, solids, layers, masks, effects, and properties. Each of these items, in scripting terms, is an object. This guide describes the ExtendScript objects that have been defined for After Effects projects.

I think it might be worthwhile to look into whether scripting might be used in order to randomize effects and effect parameters. My immediate guess would be that yes it would be possible. I didn't look into it closely, and if it turns out to be a dead end then I apologise for that but anyways I figured I might mention this in case it might be useful to you. Also, of course since I didn't look into it closely I can not make any guesses as to how much work it would take to get the type of functionality that you want.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by nathancahill on Thursday November 12, 2020 @05:32PM (#25076107)
Lightroom v6 is still available as Lightroom Classic. Lightroom CC was a rewrite, and they are definitely playing catch up.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by jaspergilley on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @07:53PM (#25064996)
No, you'd end up with Fruity Loops
Re:Ableton Live 11 by aldanor on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @08:03PM (#25065064)
That would have been a fair comparison 10 years ago. These days FL Studio is no less advanced than Ableton in some regards (e.g. the mixer, etc).
Re:Ableton Live 11 by RickS on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @09:30PM (#25065772)
As a long time (15+yrs) user of both. FLS has better ergonomics in a lot of places. Especially piano roll (slide MIDI notes) and arrangement view (automation as standalone clip). Plus the razor tool, my god...

FLS doesn't have a max for live equivalent, but I'd guess 90% of people don't use MFL. The edison recording workflow is hot trash IMO, or else I'd pretty readily move back to FL.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by pizza on Thursday November 12, 2020 @01:21AM (#25067030)
> the razor tool

I really really enjoy using Ableton and have stuck with it for years now, but one of the first things that struck me once I swapped from FL Studio was how stupid it was that Ableton's piano roll lacked this fairly basic yet crucial tool..

Re:Ableton Live 11 by Slow_Hand on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:35PM (#25062679)
Absolutely love this about Ableton and that’s the reason it’s my main tool.

As a creator it allows me to flow and shift quickly between different modes of production. It emphasizes speed and intuition, and it allows me to excute powerful moves in far fewer steps than every other DAW I use (Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase).

With the announcement of track comping (long overdue) it resolves my biggest pain point.

Particularly interesting is it’s newly integrated tempo-follow feature which allows the DAW to follow the tempo of an external audio source, such as a live drummer. This bridges the performance gap between live bands with tempos that fluctuate and electronic instruments that typically adhere to a rigid clock source. It goes a long way towards resolving a long-standing tension between live musicians and sequenced electronic music. I’m thrilled to see Ableton doubling down on it’s essence as a performance tool and cannot wait to try it out.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by galaxyLogic on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @11:48PM (#25066555)
Sounds like a great feature. Elsewhere in this thread I asked for advice on how could I take two mp3 recordings and synchronize their tempos and beats but couldn't get a very clear answer, except that it is a "very basic task".

Reading your comment about this new feature it seems obvious to me now that if the tempos in those mp3 recordings vary independently, like they do in much recorded music, it would be impossible to sync the tracks without this new feature. Right?

Re:Ableton Live 11 by Slow_Hand on Thursday November 12, 2020 @01:09AM (#25066979)
Not quite. I think we're discussing two different things. You're trying to synchronize two pre-recorded songs. That feature has been around since the beginning and is fairly trivial to do once you learn some of Ableton's core concepts. That can be demonstrated in countless Youtube videos.

What I'm describing is composing music on the fly that is locked to a master tempo and clock (like most electronic music). Jamming with another musician and staying in sync is easy if they're also using drum machines or other hardware that can clock off the same source. What Ableton's new Tempo Follow feature does is allow the DAW to listen to the audio of live musicians (say a Jazz quartet) and then automatically speed up and slow in real time when they choose to. Now, when the band pushes the tempo my sequenced instruments wont lag behind the beat and get out of sync.

--------

I think what you're trying to do is synchronize the tempos of two songs that both push and pull their tempos a bit. That involves compromise and maybe some automation. Let's use an example of two different kinds of songs which we'll call 1) rigid songs and 2) loose songs.

Rigid songs are like house music or techno. They're clocked exactly to a given tempo that doesn't waver throughout the song unless the composer automates it. This is common in electronic and modern pop music. These are the easiest to synchronize because they don't have any tempo variations and require far less work to tempo match. Loose songs are songs that have subtle or dramatic tempo changes: Jazz, old rock and roll records, or classical music (which usually has a lot of rubato).

What I believe you're asking about is trying to sync two loose songs or a loose song and a rigid song. Well the short answer is that you'll likely have to compromise a bit. Let's say a Led Zeppelin song hovers around 80bpm. At some points the band slows down to 78bpm and other times they push the tempo up to 84bpm before ultimately settling back to a mean tempo of 80bpm. Well if you wanted to synchronize the Zeppelin song with a rigid song you can set the Segment BPM (What you're designating as the average tempo in Clip View) to 80bpm for the Zeppelin song and then use warp markers to snap the song to the 80bpm grid in the parts where the band pushes or pulls against the tempo and deviates from the grid.

At this point you might point out that manually aligning the audio file strictly to the grid compromises the emotional excitement and groove of the Zeppelin song by quantizing the tempo. You'd be absolutely right. It really comes down to what your intention is and how much you're willing to sacrifice that quality for the sake of making two songs synchronize. Preserving that feel then becomes more of an art and involves careful adjustment of the warp markers and using your ear to gauge the results. Often the more musically exciting choice is one that doesn't adhere strictly to a grid.

It also comes down the content of the songs. Without audio examples it's hard to be too specific about what choices should be made.

Does that answer your question?

Re:Ableton Live 11 by galaxyLogic on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:24AM (#25083880)
Yes much thanks. But so to do the tempo-syncing you say I need to "use warp markers to snap the song to the 80bpm grid ...". I would have hoped that this could be done automatically (with the new feature in the new version perhaps).

If it can synchronize with live musicians, would it not be as easy (or even easier) for it to synchronize with a recording of live-musicians?

Re:Ableton Live 11 by jlarocco on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @11:22AM (#25059622)
My impression is that's only true in consumer software and web development.

CAD, rendering/animation, high end photo editing, and a lot of other higher end, professional software are script-able, provide libraries and APIs, and work closely with their end-users to give them what they want.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by pvarangot on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @04:37PM (#25063323)
Yeah I was thinking about Photoshop and Lightroom, which I also use, as other examples of what OP said.

Photoshop is scriptable/extendable and Lightroom has the more intuitive GUI. Apple started the Lightroom paradigm with Aperture, which was kind of the GarageBand of photo editing softwares until Lightroom caught up with the ease of use.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by anotheryou on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @12:19PM (#25060340)
Have you checked out bitwig? I love the help overlay. Explains everything while you can turn the knobs.

Same for their graphical programming thing ("grid" I think). A nice hybrid between skeumorphic and digital with e.g. stylized wires hanging down in gravity, but becoming transparent when crossing components.

Also super nice that most "visualizations" are also interactive (see the direct manipulation of the envelope at the end of the following vid)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWjYedds-RQ

Re:Ableton Live 11 by strangus on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @05:39PM (#25063881)
Long time Ableton user here. I just rebuilt my studio, and decided to use Bitwig as my DAW. I'm still coming up to speed with it, but it's winning me over. Being able to have multiple project open is nice.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by BenGosub on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @06:30PM (#25064283)
I am a Bitwig user, really love that they support Linux. Their platform is very stable and the modulations are imo the differentiating factor.

Ableton is a beast, I haven't used it as much, but I know.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by dntrkv on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @11:26AM (#25059672)
It really depends on your product and your intended audience. Ableton is not built with the intention that any average Joe can jump in and be productive from day one. Compare that to Garage Band, which is dumbed down because it has a different audience.

I think with virtually any software out there, there are tools that cater to both audiences.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by afandian on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @11:24AM (#25059648)
I remember using Ableton Live v3 back in the day. Compared to MOTU Digital Performer (which had plugins which could put windows anywhere) and Reason (which took skeuomorphism about as far as you could possibly go) its minimalism and modality of the UI seemed restrictive. But probably very sensible for live performance. Feels like they prefigured mobile user interfaces by some years.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by pupdogg on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @09:28PM (#25065750)
I was blown away when Propellerheads Reason introduced wire patching fully working on Windows XP!! This is one of the oldest videos I could find quickly: https://youtu.be/IC1ejK2chLg. Just to put time into perspective, the introduction of this actual feature pre-dates Facebook!
Re:Ableton Live 11 by nxmnxm99 on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @10:51AM (#25059334)
I don't think people do that because they're scared, they do it because "power users" don't build unicorns in most verticals.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by taffer on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:24PM (#25062578)
Interestingly, DAWs have always had flat UI designs, something that many HN commentators seem to frown upon.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by munificent on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @06:14PM (#25064165)
Reason is quite possibly the king of skeumorphic design, across all software categories and all time.

https://www.reasonstudios.com

Re:Ableton Live 11 by wwweston on Thursday November 12, 2020 @01:00AM (#25066946)
For good and ill. Mostly good (I really love it), but treating knobs as weird faders is one place the metaphor breaks and it took me a long time to get used to it.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by munificent on Thursday November 12, 2020 @01:45PM (#25073239)
Yeah, I'm with you. The UI has a sort of fun appeal, but in practice it's not actually that usable when you know what you want to do and want to move quickly.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by seth17 on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:38PM (#25062703)
I don't believe that this is true. FL Studio had a bit of a dated 00's design for a while. Cubase, Reason, and Pro Tools were also not flat either. I'm not sure that "always" is accurate.

Though, Ableton has been flat since 1.0 it seems.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by mollusk on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @04:41PM (#25063363)
DAWs, maybe, but the VSTs that live in symbiosis with them have had (and a lot of them still do) the most skeuomorphic designs ever, replicating the look and feel of audio hardware.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by pier25 on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @08:30PM (#25065338)
Always?

I think it's quite the contrary. Look at the history of Logic, Cubase, Sonar, etc. For most of their time they didn't have flat UI. Ableton is the exception.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by powerapple on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @11:18AM (#25059590)
I remember the first time I saw Reason's cable system, it was so pleasant to use. The software makes you happy. Music software not only does something, it also does something in style, I really appreciate the details given for each little things.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by andybak on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:32PM (#25062647)
I felt this way briefly until I tried to use it and then I started to understand that physical metaphors have their limits. Ableton seemed like a much smarter piece of UX design.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by jancsika on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @02:49PM (#25062157)
> Knobs

Can someone explain to me the point of a GUI knob?

Is it just the analogy to physical knobs on mixers that makes people comfortable with them in GUIs?

Re:Ableton Live 11 by marshray on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:23PM (#25062569)
Knobs and sliders allow users to leverage their spatial and manipulation abilities to specify a value from a continuous range.

You could also ask users to just type in a number, but that interrupts the flow and pushes some other data out of their short-term memory. Composers and audio engineers would probably prefer to keep that part of their brain free to focus on other things.

Sliders can also be laid out in an array (as on a mixing console) to give at a glance a graphical representation of relative levels. Another example is on the classic "two turntable" DJ mixing setup where a horizontally-oriented slider is used to control the balance between left and right.

Knobs' advantage is they are particularly space-efficient.

So you tend to see sliders used for the primary controls in situations where its useful to compare them side-by-side, and everything else as a knob.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by the_other on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:49PM (#25062812)
To add to this, the precise value of a control isn’t relevant in most mixing and sound design operations, only it’s value-within-range. Most of the decision-making work is done by ear, not by number. The knobs (and sliders) give you a quick reference to “can I get a bit more out of this”.

Virtual knobs (and sliders) invite experimentation where a numeric control or text box doesn’t (so much). You can play with them. The dragging action gives you a little bit of tactile feedback.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by dumpsterdiver on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @04:49PM (#25063448)
Very relevant point. The end result of any individual sound is entirely dependant upon the other sounds accompanying it within the same physical space.

Just as a file isn't only a file, but an entity in a filesystem, a sound is not just a sound, but an entity in a sound environment.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by PaulDavisThe1st on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @08:29PM (#25065322)
They also serve as a kind of memetic device. To see the current state of things, the user does not have to (1) read a bunch of numbers (2) remember the current state. Instead, they can look at the image (full of knobs and sliders), and utilize the much greater visual processing capacity of the human brain.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by jancsika on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @09:50PM (#25065867)
Unlike a slider, a GUI knob's visual feedback and skeuomorphic comfort comes at the cost of ergonomic interactivity.

The whole point of physical knobs is to leverage a person's thumb and forefinger (or tennis muscle if it's a huge knob) to twist precisely and efficiently to a desired position. With the two most popular digital input devices that torque doesn't exist-- you can't "twist" a mouse or tweak a touchscreen to change the position of a knob.

At least in most of the audio GUIs I've seen that use knobs, the author seems to have no idea that their skeuomorphic interface actually degrades interactivity. E.g., if they had simply used a slider the user could swipe their finger efficiently to quickly change several sliders in a row.

Even worse-- with a knob you have a similar "90-degree ambiguity" problem as with touchpad scrolling. Do you use dx, dy, or some other algo to choose the relationship between touch/drag and knob rotation?

Even worst, some devs try to "bring the torque back" by coupling the knob movement to the distance of the mouse from the center of the knob. I really wish someone would feed this awful behavior back into the physical world, and ship a mixing board with knobs that only update their value if you twist them using an included set of "knob tongs" :)

Re:Ableton Live 11 by PaulDavisThe1st on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @09:56PM (#25065899)
two words: scroll wheel

more words: scroll wheel with disengagable "clutch"

Re:Ableton Live 11 by alkonaut on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @05:09PM (#25063600)
The only alternative UI for many of these knobs is a linear gauge/slider. A knob is often modulated and automated so it's not just an input widget, it's also a gauge. It needs to convey an animated value to the user.

Typing is usually out of the question since you need to do it by ear. Some controls obviously have numberic input in combination with the knobs, for extra flexibility (e.g. if you made some notes with settings and just want to enter them).

Many of the values use mappings that make little sense as numbers. E.g. a knob marked 0..10 could mean a filter cutoff frequency from 20 to the nyquist frequency, logarithmically. Entering values in a text box with such arbitrary limits is a terrible experience (is it 20...22000...or 20..48000? or 0..1? or 0..100%?). Knobs hide the complexity of the logarithmic mapping and it's easy to to quickly set a value by ear.

In a few cases the knobs are decorative and could just as well have been e.g. most fixed step knobs could be combo boxes. For example a vintage synth often had a rotary knob to select between 3 options (waveform, for example) so now you can see that in ui's too. Doing that in a computer interface is purely for visual appeal.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by huhnmonster on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @04:35PM (#25063302)
It is not only the analogy. I like to use Midi controllers which have hardware knobs mapped to software knobs for live performances.

Sure, you could map a knob to a slider or anything really, but it makes the interaction easier

Re:Ableton Live 11 by andybak on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:30PM (#25062629)
Sliders are a great fit for a touchscreen. And knobs are basically sliders that take up less room.

I don’t see the problem? If you give me a numeric input that doesn’t allow me to drag or swipe to change values then I’ll swiftly be looking for a different app.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by robenkleene on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @02:53PM (#25062204)
What's a better UI for this? The times when a knob (or slider) are appropriate is when you're adjusting something by eye or ear (e.g., you don't know the exact destination value in advance).
Re:Ableton Live 11 by monetus on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:17PM (#25062493)
Unlike a number box, they show the range of potential values and contextualize the current value - similar to a slider but more often those are linear when knobs are non-linear. Just my 2¢
Re:Ableton Live 11 by pmarin on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:03PM (#25062330)
It is just skeuomorphism but sometimes musicians bind those knobs to real midi instruments.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by puranjay on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @10:47PM (#25066198)
Every serious musician I know has a MIDI controller on their desk, each mapped to specific controls on their DAW. A physical knob that maps to its GUI equivalent is really helpful.

This skeuomorphism isn't without cause.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by pier25 on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @08:31PM (#25065351)
Knobs are just sliders using less space.

You need knobs and sliders to convey information visually.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by drcongo on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @11:00AM (#25059417)
FruityLoops! But yes, I agree with all of this.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by perk on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @12:00PM (#25060123)
If you liked the old Fruity, you might enjoy this: https://dunkadunka.com
Re:Ableton Live 11 by drcongo on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @12:40PM (#25060605)
I do like this, thanks!
Re:Ableton Live 11 by perk on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @12:43PM (#25060639)
Cool, I made it just for fun when the corona started and business was slower than usual.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by farias0 on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @11:58AM (#25060092)
What? Are you saying FL Studio is a dumbed down Ableton? I must be misunderstanding you
Re:Ableton Live 11 by the-dude on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:07PM (#25062378)
Re:Ableton Live 11 by agumonkey on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @10:48AM (#25059301)
music and animation are often very nice to users
Re:Ableton Live 11 by toomanybeersies on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @10:43AM (#25059254)
> Imagine what Ableton would look like if they were only optimising for the user that wants to put a couple of pre-made loops together and call it a song.

It would look a lot like FL Studio, which caters more towards that end of the market.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by packetlost on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @10:51AM (#25059333)
FL Studio is quite powerful, though it does seem to cater more towards electronic music production and live sets. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use pre-made loops in FL Studio that wasn't an absolute novice.

GarageBand on the other hand...

Re:Ableton Live 11 by alexilliamson on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:22PM (#25062553)
You can run python scripts in FL Studio. I think it's more accurate to say that FL caters to midi/piano roll workflows. It's more about style than complexity level.
Re:Ableton Live 11 by farias0 on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @12:02PM (#25060149)
Dude, FL Studio is so much more complex and flexible than Ableton! So much that I'm switching to Ableton for a while to see if I can get more productive and spend less time troubleshooting stuff

I'd say the opposite: Ableton is more focused and simpler, streamlining lots of stuff (live VSTs) without being less powerful. Kinda Apple-ish in a way.

Re:Ableton Live 11 by andybak on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @03:34PM (#25062668)
I don’t know FL very well but Ableton’s power is cleverly designed and is easy to miss when you only use the obvious surface features.