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Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by threeseed on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:21PM (#25028636)
iOS developers have made over a half a trillion dollars over the last decade on this unsustainable, constantly shifting foundation that they hate so much.

Makes you wonder why they bother ? Maybe it's because the very rules you say developers hate are the ones users find appealing.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by mortenjorck on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:45PM (#25028838)
The question is this: Do you want to build within a certain set of categories Apple unambiguously supports?

If you're building a to-do app supported by a monthly subscription, there's no shifting foundation there. If you're building a free-to-play game whose in-app purchases consist of "handful of gems," "bag of gems," and "trunk of gems," you have nothing to worry about from App Review.

If you're building something without obvious precedent, however, trying to break new ground in the spirit of tech entrepreneurship – the answer is no longer so clear-cut. And so the App Store has in many ways self-selected developers for "safe" categories over the past decade, and yes, many of these have found great success (even if that half-trillion dollars tends to follow a power law with most of it going to the top earners in each category).

What the App Store is definitively not, however, is conducive to innovation, experimentation, and risk-taking. There are outliers, of course, who have managed to do something novel within the constraints set down by Apple. But the biggest risk you take when building your business on the App Store is not that your product will fail in the market, but that Apple will prevent it from ever reaching the market.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by colechristensen on Sunday November 08, 2020 @05:10PM (#25029579)
No, your biggest risk when building your business on iOS will be selling nothing, which is the most common result. So many people try and the expected outcome is nothing.

People tend to like iOS better because the app ecosystem is better and it is that way because of restrictions. The restrictions aren't necessarily the exactly correct set to achieve the quality and profit apple seeks, but if they were all that terrible, the iOS experience would be terrible and it isn't.

It'll essentially keep staying just bad enough that it doesn't get regulated to hell or abandoned by users... and no better.

People are generally upset because the barrier for entry to create an app is low and the profit for winners can be very high, which means there are an enormous number of people trying and regulating that is hard.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by xnyan on Monday November 09, 2020 @12:48AM (#25031814)
> People tend to like iOS better because the app ecosystem is better and it is that way

I can’t speak for you but I know that I am prone (as most humans are I think) to project myself on others.

I use iOS because it’s the only OS that runs on Apple-designed mobile silicon, which is extremely good in terms of performance. Also (and this is not a joke) my partner hates green bubbles. You may be surprised how many people feel that way, which I personally think is kind of a shallow opinion, but it’s a real reason more than one person has stuck with iOS. Some people buy it as a status symbol because it is a fairly expensive phone, beautiful (imo) and apple advertises well. Some people can’t buy it because Apple has a great and widespread repair network. I know for a fact that a great many people share your opinion and buy iOS phones because of the App Store, that said I don’t think it’s safe to assume it’s the only or even the primary reason people do it.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by colechristensen on Monday November 09, 2020 @01:46AM (#25032021)
Well you listed several things which are proxies for the quality of the iOS experience, a significant amount of which is a direct result of the more curated app store. It's popular and a status signalling object - but it wouldn't be if the core experience was bad. Many people just follow tastemakers and don't know at all why the thing they "like" is better or worse than anything else, that's fine, but they're still doing so ultimately because of quality.

The app store moderation isn't the only dimension of the quality of the ecosystem, but it has a significant effect.

I have a mild preference for android, but it was more or less just luck which landed me on an iPhone for my current phone. It literally came down to which one I could acquire quicker after I destroyed my old phone before an extended out of state trip. The Pixel I bought is still in its sealed box because the shipping was delayed while I literally picked up an iPhone from the Apple campus store at the last minute before my flight.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by _ph_ on Monday November 09, 2020 @02:19AM (#25032144)
I do think the iOS app ecosystem is pretty terrible. I buy Apple because the overall security and privacy is better and of course the ecosystem ties. But I have mostly given up on shopping for apps. The app store is flooded with me too games with in-app purchases and knockoffs of legit apps. To make it worse, Apple puts advertisements before actual search results when you search for an app. Innovative new apps are rare or just get drowned in the app store.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by petra on Sunday November 08, 2020 @06:41PM (#25030129)
//What the App Store is definitively not, however, is conducive to innovation, experimentation, and risk-taking.

Are there any signs that iOS is significantly worse than Android with regards to innovative apps?

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by lern_too_spel on Sunday November 08, 2020 @10:50PM (#25031288)
Off the top of my head? Google Photos is actually usable, there are many options for game streaming and emulation, PWAs work, Termux (think iSH but significantly faster) works, transparently proxying phone calls through Google Voice or other services works, browser extensions work, on-device system-wide ad-blocking is available, and there are multiple options for driving infotainment (including Android Auto) without a head unit in the car. It is enough of a gap that I have never considered using an iOS device even though they're offered to me for free.

Some major pieces that are missing from both are the ability for user-installed apps to auto-update without using the system app stores and the ability for a user-installed app to process call audio.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by silly-silly on Sunday November 08, 2020 @08:06PM (#25030509)
You're looking at it.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by fxtentacle on Sunday November 08, 2020 @06:44PM (#25030146)
No, only 0.15 trillion [1] spread out over roughly 1 mio games and 3.4 mio non-gaming apps [2]. So that's a mere $35k in average lifetime value. But as anyone used to lying with statistics knows, the average revenue is much higher than the median revenue. In Apple's case, the factor appears to be 56x [3].

So the typical App Store app makes $630 in total over its entire lifetime. That's surely not enough to finance its development.

Accordingly, I am convinced that pretty much all iOS developers lose money on their apps. A very few lucky winners get rich, and everyone else is treated as disposable.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/07/apple-app-store-had-estimate...

[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/268251/number-of-apps-in...

[3] https://medium.com/@sm_app_intel/a-bunch-of-average-app-reve...

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by ratww on Sunday November 08, 2020 @07:25PM (#25030344)
You need to take into account that lots of apps rely on advertisement (especially these days), and another big chunk is made to interact with something else that makes the money (like Netflix or Amazon).
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by papaf on Sunday November 08, 2020 @04:02PM (#25028993)
iOS developers have made over a half a trillion dollars over the last decade on this unsustainable, constantly shifting foundation that they hate so much.

I don't know why you think that this comment is relevant given that iSH is free.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by csydas on Sunday November 08, 2020 @04:16PM (#25029128)
You're focusing on the wrong part. The contention from iSH and many other posters in the thread is about AppStore rules being inconsistent which in turn makes it unsustainable as per the GP.

The comment is that it's clearly sustainable and stable enough to allow persons to make a significant profit from it even which shouldn't be possible without some stability and predictability to the platform.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by papaf on Sunday November 08, 2020 @04:30PM (#25029260)
I believe that you are missing the central point. The AppStore rules are unsustainable for people that volunteer their time and expertise for free like the developers of iSH.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by cbsmith on Sunday November 08, 2020 @04:26PM (#25029213)
Some developers have made half a trillion. Others have lost probably a lot more.

The problem with a closed ecosystem that capriciously removed apps isn't that you can't make money. It's effectively protectionism, with those allowed inside the walled garden having less competition and therefore an easier time taking profits.

The problem is the risk.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by zepto on Sunday November 08, 2020 @08:56PM (#25030722)
Except it isn’t actually capricious.

It’s really pretty obvious what kinds of thing Apple shuts down.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by cbsmith on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @12:43AM (#25043108)
The enforcement is capricious.

I can't tell you how many conversations I've been involved in where there was discussion of, "yeah, but what are the chances this makes it through the AppStore?" and the answer is almost never 0% or 100%.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by zepto on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @01:37PM (#25049408)
Almost all apps are not in his category.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by cbsmith on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @07:34PM (#25064820)
That's kind of my point. There's a lot of apps that never get built because no one can justify taking the risk.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by teruakohatu on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:24PM (#25028662)
> Maybe it's because the very rules you say developers hate are the ones users find appealing.

Users may not know or care, but it is a stretch to say it is appealing to power users that they cannot run ish. It is not appealing to regular users that they can't buy books from within the Kindle app. Etc. Etc.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by Veen on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:28PM (#25028699)
Power users who want to run a Linux environment on their phone are a minute fraction of the iOS user base. I don’t think Apple is interested in serving every possible user, and they’re probably quite content to let people who need this type of feature find it on a different platform.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by irrational on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:36PM (#25028762)
I’m an iOS user and a kindle user. Having to go to another place to purchase kindle books doesn’t bother me. But it is mostly about how often I do it. If I was purchasing books every hour it would really bother me. But I only purchase books once a month or less. So it’s not a big deal for me.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by neop1x on Monday November 09, 2020 @05:45AM (#25033409)
I am KOReader user on rooted Kobo and LineageOS Android. I can read many file formats without the fear that books will stop working [1] one day.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48829661

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by irrational on Monday November 09, 2020 @11:59AM (#25036823)
I never read a book more than once. Life is short and there are too many books to get through.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by threeseed on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:27PM (#25028693)
Amazon chose not to allow users to buy books from the app. Apple is not stopping them.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by miles on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:39PM (#25028782)
> Amazon chose not to allow users to buy books from the app. Apple is not stopping them.

Internal emails show how an Amazon ad prompted Steve Jobs and Phil Schiller to block in-app purchases of Kindle books on iOS https://9to5mac.com/2020/07/30/internal-emails-show-how-an-a...

Why You Can't Buy Books from the Kindle app on iPhone or iPad in 2018 https://www.techspot.com/article/1597-how-to-buy-kindle-book...

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by my123 on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:33PM (#25028734)
In quite some countries, book pricing is fixed by the publisher and cannot vary between websites according to the law. If AAPL takes a 30% margin, the whole model cannot work and you are much better off not selling anything.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by threeseed on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:44PM (#25028827)
I fail to see what the relationship between the publisher and the seller has to do with Apple.

Because in case you're not aware Amazon isn't some mom and pop store. It has enough clout to negotiate terms with publishers.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by hk__2 on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:54PM (#25028922)
> Because in case you're not aware Amazon isn't some mom and pop store. It has enough clout to negotiate terms with publishers.

Not everywhere, as GP wrote. In France, the price of a book is fixed: it sells the same price whether you’re Amazon or a small bookstore (you’re allowed to offer a 5% reduction max).

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by amenod on Sunday November 08, 2020 @04:27PM (#25029224)
True, but the amount the publisher gets is negotiable.

Not saying that 30% is acceptable, of course - I have no idea what the margins on books are.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by RHSeeger on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:32PM (#25028720)
That is disingenuous, at best. Apple takes a large percentage on purchases through the phone, so Amazon doesn't allow the purchase through it. It's not an arbitrary decision on their end.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by jeremy_wiebe on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:40PM (#25028787)
My understanding is that Amazon also takes their chunk of flesh from book publishers/authors. Honest question then: how is that different? You can publish a book but if you aren’t on Amazon you drastically limit your exposure to potential readers.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by lmm on Sunday November 08, 2020 @09:05PM (#25030772)
Amazon doesn't block customers from buying books from elsewhere and reading them on Amazon devices. It's fiddlier than buying through the integrated Amazon store, but it's a fully supported way of using your Amazon device.

I'm not aware of them blocking sellers from listing books on Amazon and also at a lower price elsewhere (though it wouldn't surprise me if they did), and they certainly don't block sellers from telling their customers how much Amazon's cut is.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by II2II on Sunday November 08, 2020 @04:19PM (#25029164)
You do run into a bit of a problem though: Amazon wants their cut, Apple wants their cut, the credit card company wants their cut, the publisher wants their cut, and there are likely others in the chain as well. That's not to say that each party doesn't deserve payment for their services, but there does have to be some limitations on how much they can take.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by philistine on Sunday November 08, 2020 @04:51PM (#25029422)
And that limit should reflect how involved they are in the existence of the product. Is a credit card company intrinsically vital to the existence of a book? No. Then their cap should be reasonably low, like in Europe.

Is Apple intrinsically vital to the existence of an ebook?

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by nathias on Sunday November 08, 2020 @03:50PM (#25028894)
Curious, people complain about the monopoly, yet they still purchase from monopoly.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by ratww on Sunday November 08, 2020 @05:06PM (#25029536)
The people complaining are developers, while the ones purchasing and defending it are users or are doing so from the point of view of users.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by zepto on Sunday November 08, 2020 @08:57PM (#25030727)
Developers don’t have to purchase Apple products or develop for Apple products either.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by arvinsim on Sunday November 08, 2020 @09:23PM (#25030839)
What? You need an Apple machine to use Xcode.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by zepto on Sunday November 08, 2020 @09:26PM (#25030857)
Why would you buy one if you don’t like Apple?
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by saagarjha on Monday November 09, 2020 @05:00AM (#25033170)
People can complain about things and still prefer them. Just like you may dislike that your spouse cleans the dishes poorly, but you aren't going to switch to someone else for that reason.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by int_19h on Monday November 09, 2020 @04:51AM (#25033123)
That's kinda how monopolies work, and why trust-busting laws were first devised.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by nathias on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @05:08AM (#25044308)
which was my point
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by young_unixer on Sunday November 08, 2020 @04:43PM (#25029353)
Most software developers in HN are not in it only for the money.

Software is an essential part of our modern life: transport, communication, manufacture, finance, etc. depend on software.

At least in those areas, we need reliable software and we need device owners to have control over their devices. We need to have a good software infrastructure if we want to progress as a species.

The current software landscape is bad, and Apple is actively trying to make it worse.

If Apple made game consoles, it would be OK, because game consoles are not essential to our society, but smartphones have become essential to our personal lives.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by smolder on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:32AM (#25035173)
That last point is a big problem. When we require people to have smart phones then there is no more privacy from government surveillance. Their authority becomes more absolute, and any fear of populist upheaval is gone.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by gverrilla on Monday November 09, 2020 @12:08AM (#25031644)
why do you think game consoles are not essential to our society?
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by young_unixer on Monday November 09, 2020 @03:19PM (#25039396)
If tomorrow we wake up unable to play video games, we would be kinda disappointed, but our life would keep going normally (unless you're a game developer).

If we wake up unable to access banking, communication or transport, our life would be more or less ruined, for everyone.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by gverrilla on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @03:06PM (#25051104)
I think a lot would actually change if we had no videogames. I'm pretty sure suicides and crimes related to mental health would increase. But it's only my opinion - I'm not a researcher.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by smolder on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:39AM (#25035242)
They don't do anything essential. You could replace them with jigsaw puzzles and we'd be fine and likely better off in many ways, because that's less addictive and less resource intensive, too. We just wouldn't have as much fun.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by jariel on Sunday November 08, 2020 @04:54PM (#25029445)
"Maybe it's because the very rules you say developers hate are the ones users find appealing."

This is fairly easily disprovable by the mere existence of Android - which has a healthy app market place, tons of great apps and is for all intents and purposes, just as secure.

Google Play does a fine job of promoting good apps, keeping bad ones out, and I can still go 'off network' and download my IT app or whatever that doesn't conform to Google Play rules.

There are no material negative side effects.

If Apple adjusted their policy to match that of Google, users would have more choice, and be better off.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by josephcsible on Sunday November 08, 2020 @06:40PM (#25030126)
Be careful: the Play Store has a bunch of problems too and is in some ways almost as bad as Apple's App Store. The real reason that Android is better than iOS is that you can sideload apps from third-party sources.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by catlifeonmars on Sunday November 08, 2020 @05:40PM (#25029778)
I think it’s more likely that Apple users are self selected to prefer the Apple App Store model, similar to the way Android users are self selected. The mere existence of those two markets doesn’t really tell us conclusively what users prefer. You would need to control for other factors, such as user income, demographics, etc etc.
Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by jariel on Sunday November 08, 2020 @07:31PM (#25030373)
It's borderline 'conclusive' because there is literally no material difference between 'security' on either system, ergo, it cannot be a material choice for 'selection'. Only the 'appearance' thereof.

Moreover, I really don't think Apple users in any conscious way are into this - I have never in my life heard a single user hint at this.

If you were to ask Apple users 'If you could have a bunch more apps right now, that you do not have because of Apple's closed model, and that having those apps would in no way affect the security or integrity of your device' - would they say yes?

Of course they would.

This is getting absurd - the 'restrictions' on Apple, while based on some degree of legitimacy, are also, unambiguously a vector for them to pursue leveraging the control they have on their platform to make money.

This isn't conspiratorial, my gosh, this is exactly the kind of position every business wants to be in, it's like the 'whole point'. They can milk their dominance and suck profits out of adjacent sectors and cover it with some other related policy? It's 'business gold'.

Re:About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store by lern_too_spel on Sunday November 08, 2020 @04:28PM (#25029228)
Eventually users will figure out, and they'll figure out faster if the tech literate tell them.

As an example of one of many things that are much worse on iOS, I share pictures of friends' and relatives' kids with them automatically via Google Photos. All but one of my relatives also use Android, and this works perfectly. One uses iOS, which doesn't allow background uploads, so I get pictures from them months after the event when they happen to have Google Photos open to reminisce, which is annoying for the rest of us, but a potential privacy invasion for them because we all know when they're looking at their old photos.

For people who use the phone features a lot, the inability of iOS devices to conveniently use Google Voice and similar proxies is a nonstarter.

For gamers, the inability of iOS to support Steam Link and Geforce Now is a nonstarter.

For people who value privacy, the inability to install apps or get your location without telling Apple is a nonstarter.

These are all due to Apple's policies. The hardware itself is nice, but because of all the restrictions, it isn't very useful.