News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by kungito on Sunday October 25, 2020 @01:49PM (#24888266)
Are Bing and DDG using those algorithms? Because every 6-8 months I give one of them a try and they are horrible. First I force myself a week of no falling back to Google when I cannot find anything and then slowly I just give up again. Did they misunderstand something elementary?
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by weareallcowards on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:43PM (#24888736)
I've used DDG search exclusively for about 9 months now, and I've never used the !g flag. Comments like this completely baffle me.

In my anecdotal experience, it's every bit as good as google, and I simply did not notice a difference in the results when I switched.

It must be down to what people search for, or maybe how heavily Google has customized their personal results to fit their behaviors. I mostly use web searches for looking up technical documentation, and 5-second tasks like weather forecasts and unit conversions.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Frost1x on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:53PM (#24888842)
I've used DDG for over a year now almost exclusively and while I agree it isn't by any definition horrible, sometimes when I know enough key descriptors for something I'm searching for but continually fail to find it on DDG, I fall back to Google with the same query and find what I'm looking for.

This has happened probably a handful of times but enough times that I would have been stuck in the water without Google, unfortunately. Only one of those handful of cases was significant (I needed that information for work, not a simple curious search) but Google saved the day.

Some of it may be due to years of growing accustomed to building searches subconsciously around Google which is unfair to DDG, but it's hard to say definitively.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by freediver on Sunday October 25, 2020 @10:13PM (#24892213)
There are at least three types of searches where Google is still the 'king' over Bing.

1. Index size - Google spider visits more places than Bing spider. This is why Google delivers better results for compiler error strings, serial numbers etc.

Query examples where Bing/DDG completely miss the mark:

SA1DP2CF - a serial number

s2 034 253 033 C - audi rs2 exhaust manifold part no

Denninger Str. 96, 81925 München, Germany - what is on this location?

2. Intent/Semantic

Query examples:

tesla 00001 - who owns first tesla? Bing is completely lost

original elite alien name - looking for thargoids, Google tells me that right away, DDG #8

3. Localized

Query example: hiking trails - Google gives me relevant local results based on my location (IP based), DDG doesn't (although it is aware of my IP-based location in the same way)

Getting these right is incredibly hard as you literally need Google size infrastructure to get this right, which even Bing doesn't have.

Second thing that is hard to catch up for any Google competitor is the rest of Google infrastructure users rely on - Browser, Email, Meet, Docs, Youtube, Android, Drive... Even if you get the search right but the user has to go back to Google for the rest of services, Google has a chance to get the user back.

IMO attacking Google starts with developing a product that does not insult user's intelligence, is innovative and does things Google can't, explores different business models (as ads inevitably lead to conflict of interest - optimize for user experience or advertising revenue?) and offers infrastructure that displaces (at least some) Google services.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by bsder on Sunday October 25, 2020 @06:26PM (#24890577)
Here's a search with big differences between DDG and Google:

"kicad convert wxpoint to millimeters"

Note how many "Autocad" entries clutter the DDG results. Google gets kicad in every single entry on the first page.

My biggest frustration with search engines is "I gave you the terms so USE THEM. Don't be helpful and omit terms you think aren't relevant."

I still miss AltaVista's interactive cluster diagrams where you could see the web of links and pick the relevant one.

If DDG simply implemented that single feature, I would never go back to Google.

The problem is that, like Microsoft in the 90's, Google will simply copy your feature if it takes off. So, there is no point in innovating in a visible way in search. That's the problem with a monopoly.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by chris_f on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:22PM (#24891057)
>If DDG simply implemented that single feature, I would never go back to Google.

Here you go. #2 on the list.

https://www.runnaroo.com/blog/the-search-engine-hacker-news-...

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by utopcell on Monday October 26, 2020 @02:23AM (#24893293)
This says it is serving google results: https://www.runnaroo.com/about Is that accurate ?
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by chris_f on Monday October 26, 2020 @08:26AM (#24895363)
Yes, Google is the source for organic web page results (similar to how DDG uses Bing). There are currently about 60 other sources for the vertical specific results.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by bsder on Sunday October 25, 2020 @08:34PM (#24891570)
I don't see an interactive cluster diagram, but those search results are actually pretty good.

Thanks for this. I'll flip it to my default search for a while and see how it goes.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by chris_f on Monday October 26, 2020 @08:28AM (#24895391)
Sorry, you're right I misread your comment. I was referring to the section about respecting the terms you want to be searched.

I know Swisscows and Carrot2 both do some topic clustering, maybe those would be interesting as well.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by BRedSox on Sunday October 25, 2020 @09:06PM (#24891812)
Interesting. That’s the first I’m seeing of it.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by xondono on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:37PM (#24889211)
In my experience, it depends on what you are looking.

If you are searching technical info like pdf manuals, datasheets, etc.. I find DDG works better than Google, because most companies aren’t buying to be first result, so the manuals show up first.

If you are looking for Stack Overflow type of content “how to config X on linux using Y”. The !g flag becomes handy.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by FpUser on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:42PM (#24890155)
>"I mostly use web searches for looking up technical documentation, and 5-second tasks like weather forecasts and unit conversions."

This is what I do as well but regarding results on technical info I consider DDG/BING/Whatever way inferior to Google.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by whimsicalism on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:08PM (#24888972)
Sometimes I need the "!g" for Google's personalization.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by srtjstjsj on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:44PM (#24889287)
Apropos, I searched "ddg bang patten" and got garbage results, so I added "!g" and Google found DDG's own page on bang patterns.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by mikem170 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:00PM (#24889847)
I ran the same searches and got the info as the #4 result in DDG and the #1 result in Google.

Disclaimer: I switched to DDG and only very infrequently need to resort to google. I happier not being tracked.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by dredmorbius on Monday October 26, 2020 @08:39AM (#24895472)
!bang
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by heavyset_go on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:11PM (#24888486)
Bing and DDG don't fall prey to being inundated by SEO blog spam like Google does.

Either way, I use Searx[1], which is a search engine aggregator that you can self-host or use one of the public instances[2].

[1] https://github.com/searx/searx

[2] https://searx.space/

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by pureliquidhw on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:24PM (#24888595)
I don't think this is true anymore. DDG results have declined significantly as they have become more mainstream.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by curryst on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:27PM (#24889614)
I'm curious if there's data to back that up.

I would be unsurprised if it's true. The reality that DDG is going to have is that search is almost inherently personal, as an artifact of the imprecision of language and the lack of surrounding context. It applies to some searches more than others, but something like "what is vanilla?" Has a whole variety of answers. What is the substance vanilla? What is made out of vanilla? There's probably 80 different software frameworks that use vanilla in the name. Who knows how many companies have vanilla in their name. Oh, or it could be that you mistyped Manilla, which has its own set of results.

Personalization let's you cut down on that. Maybe this person searches for Python stuff a lot, so there's a good chance the frameworks are what they're looking for. Or, the inverse, this person looks up recipes all the time, they probably know what vanilla is so don't show a full page of "this is where vanilla comes from" results.

Lacking that context, they have to assume the same context for everyone, so either everybody gets a full page of web frameworks or everyone gets a full page of frameworks; DDG has no way to tell which you're probably more interested in.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by heavyset_go on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:32PM (#24889648)
That hasn't been my experience. At least for my searches, DDG has significantly improved over the last couple of years.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by pureliquidhw on Monday October 26, 2020 @11:12AM (#24897013)
DDG was mediocre for awhile then was amazing for a year or so in late 2018-mid 2019. Then as adoption grew and SEO teams saw more and more traffic through DDG, the results for non-SEO'd sites dropped dramatically. Still better than google in principle, but no longer in practice. I probably g!'d 10 times in that golden age, now I end up searching with google every day.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by dariusj18 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:35PM (#24888672)
It seems to me that the efforts blogs go through to beat google make it that much harder for other search engines to create good results as well.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by dragonwriter on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:43PM (#24888741)
> Bing and DDG don't fall prey to being inundated by SEO blog spam like Google does.

Yeah, if you aren't used enough, it's not worth trying to target you for manipulation. All that really demonstrates is (1) they use different algorithms than Google, so optimizing against Google's algorithm doesn't work on them, and (2) they aren't used enough to be worth gaming separately.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Grimm1 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @06:30PM (#24890634)
DDG is a billion dollar company, someone's using them :P
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by geogra4 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:41PM (#24888727)
Yeah my experience once I switched from Google to bing and ddg is that for everyday items search is much better because it's not inundated with blog spam. I only go back to Google when doing technical/code searches as it still seems to be a bit better on those.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by freehunter on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:02PM (#24890892)
One reason monopolies are considered bad is because they set the barriers to entry too high for competitors. I hear the “but Google is just better” argument a lot and sure they are. Google search is better because they pay other companies to hamstring Google’s competitors. That’s the whole point of this anti-trust investigation. Google has made themselves the best not necessarily by actually being the best, but by paying other companies to hold Google’s competitors down. They pay to make sure their competitors are worse, not that they are better.

You and me, as consumers, shouldn’t be forced to use a worse product just to try to balance the market, because we can’t compete with Google either. That’s the point of anti-trust regulations.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Exmoor on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:30PM (#24888636)
I've read this type of comment a few times on HN and always find it interesting. I've been using Bing for probably 10 years on desktop and Google on my phone (because Android). Generally I've found that I prefer the Bing results to the Google results more often than Bing. I've honestly had the opposite experience (frustrated with Google results, so I switch to Bing) so I wonder how much of it is based on subconscious assumptions about which we assume is better?

I'm sure there's some site the obfuscates results and could probably answer the question a little more scientifically.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by fastball on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:45PM (#24889297)
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think it's subconscious bias in my case of preferring Google to all others.

My process: think of something I want to find, think of all the keywords I can, type them into the search engine.

Google helps me find what I'm looking for faster than Bing or DDG.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by lanstin on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:22PM (#24889993)
I think given a given search algorithm there is an art to searching effectively with that algorithm. For example for a long time you’d search based on the words you expect in an answer to the question. As Google got more into the “reading the search query as a question” mode you had to shift a bit to framing the query with words from a question that would typically be asked to get the search results. I suspect some of the friction between switching search providers is that we unconsciously get tuned to what terms to use to get the answers we want.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by tobr on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:05PM (#24888403)
DDG really isn’t horrible anymore. It’s weaker than Google in some areas, stronger in others. I stopped reflexively adding `!g` to my searches some time ago.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by dybber on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:32PM (#24888651)
Depends on the country you’re in, DDG still doesn’t give meaningful results for most danish queries is my impression after 6 months of use.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by tobr on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:11PM (#24889908)
Yes, local searches (if that’s what you mean) would be one of its weak points.

On the other hand, there are often various good local search providers who have bangs that you can use directly, with better SERPs than Google for the relevant queries.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Grimm1 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:09PM (#24888467)
Turn off all the data collection in Google and personalization from it and compare the results. They go down in quality considerably in my experience.

Even with those features on I find constantly outdated information these days.

Yup that article from 2012 Techcrunch with the broken links is really helping me Google.

Disclosure: Currently running an alternative search engine. However I legitimately don't like Google search or Google's practices in the search market, so much so it actually prompted us to throw our hat in the ring.

Edit: I just made the search again, "Techcrunch submission form" The first result for me is from 2006, not 2012, https://techcrunch.com/2006/02/01/how-to-submit-your-company...

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by dragonwriter on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:48PM (#24888778)
> Turn off all the data collection in Google and personalization from it and compare the results.

Yeah, Google has overtly for, IIRC, about a decade said they are focussing search improvements on personal and even predictive search, so, sure, disable that and the quality goes down.

But that just illustrates that, while there is an obvious advertising incentive for data collection, it actually is relevant to delivering useful search results.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Grimm1 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:59PM (#24888898)
I don't disagree that personalization is important, I disagree with the methods Google employs to collect that data and then that they also use it against the user on the advertising side. So yeah, Google does well by trampling all over ethics and privacy.

[0]Only 22% of consumers say they are okay with having their information collected indiscriminately by websites to provide a better experience.

Which means by that metric google abuses 88% of it's users unless they go through the means to turn the features off.

Informed consent, access and ownership are all pillars a modern site experience should have when it comes to data collection -- Google fails here and so does DDG in the opposite direction by just never asking which means they can't do any personalization.

The winner here is going to be someone who can provide the better ethical and functional experience. I firmly believe in the next 15 years we will see litigation in the US around data privacy just using California as the canary and Europe recently voted to get even stricter than the GDPR.

[0]https://www.privacymonitor.com/articles/privacy-guide/

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by nl on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:24PM (#24891077)
> [0]Only 22% of consumers say they are okay with having their information collected indiscriminately by websites to provide a better experience.

That isn't a quote from the referenced link. The quote is "Only 22 percent of consumers agreed that they would be willing to hand over personal data to improve experiences." - which is quite a different thing.

I'm not happy to hand over personal data to improve experiences. But I'm very happy for Google to track what searches I do to improve their results.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Grimm1 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:31PM (#24891130)
Uhhhhh but you hand over way more if you use google services.

Your right it's not a quote I didn't quote it, notice the lack of quotes. I'm also not sure how you are splitting hairs over "information collected indiscriminately" which would be a superset including personal data.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Grimm1 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:36PM (#24891185)
Like maybe it's not clear but google turns around and uses your information in search for ad targeting as well. You don't just improve search which would be largely innocuous but that's not their business.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by nl on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:19PM (#24891027)
> "Techcrunch submission form"

I get https://techcrunch.com/2019/11/20/submit-a-guest-post-to-ext... as the first link

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Grimm1 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:22PM (#24891054)
Happy to share a screenshot if you'd like :)
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by nl on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:26PM (#24891086)
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Grimm1 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:31PM (#24891140)
https://imgur.com/a/dmdJsS1 and there's mine. Google tends to give me crap results though. Seems your experience is different :P
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by jmnicolas on Monday October 26, 2020 @06:57AM (#24894777)
> Turn off all the data collection in Google and personalization from it and compare the results. They go down in quality considerably in my experience.

Absolutely. I switched from Google to DDG and Qwant a few weeks ago and was surprised that I didn't see much differences.

But after discussing it with colleagues that were switching back to Google it became apparent that it was because I was siloing Google to its own browser, erasing cookies etc that made it as "inefficient" as the other search engines.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by mlazos on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:59PM (#24888897)
I actually started using edge at work (I work at ms) and I don’t find bing to be too bad, most searches I go to google for I don’t find a good answer there either. Given they are sometimes very obscure c++ questions. For everyday use though I find them both to be very similar
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by rhino369 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @10:21PM (#24892272)
I’ve never had a problem with bing. Their video and image searching seem better.