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Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by bob1029 on Friday October 09, 2020 @02:53PM (#24733131)
This headline is a bit hyperbolic, but the lack of a direct phone line to someone who can help is why I've moved on to other brokerages.

Robinhood worked well for bootstrapping my portfolio with free trades, but after a certain point it got big enough for me to worry about other factors like this.

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by cashewchoo on Friday October 09, 2020 @04:31PM (#24734120)
Charles Schwab has native english speaker support just a phone call away (with no waiting in the handful of times I've used them, so far). And they were the first of the non-robinhood retail brokerages to break rank and offer 0-commission equity trades.

Example: I accidentally deposited a check into my IRA once. I called and explained I wasn't sure what to do because 1) the check was post-tax money and 2) if I tried to fix it myself, would it count as an early withdrawal?.

The guy picked up almost immediately, said yep lemme transfer you, the <something> department has a button for that. I got transferred, still to a native english speaker, who sorted me out. A couple days later it was all fixed in my account. 10/10.

I do all my banking with them and if they offered a 2% cashback credit card, I'd move that to them too.

Speaking of which, Citi (I have the doublecash) has been dreadful - my card # got stolen once, and they sent the new credit cards to my old address (that I still - for a bit longer - owned, thankfully) even after I specifically stressed, and confirmed multiple times, that I was 300 miles away from the address and if they sent them there, they'd sit in my porch for 1-2 weeks before I could get to them, and I would also not have a credit card to use.

They reassure me, even getting a bit snippy at the end of the call, that they're sending them to the address I gave them (my parents' house) on the call. And since I'm such an important customer, they're overnighting the cards.

Sure enough, the next day, I check my security camera and see a dang cardboard envelope that says CITICARDS all over it sitting on my old porch 300 miles away.

So I call them up, explain that they did exactly what I asked them not to do, and if they could cancel those cards and try sending them again, because I don't have a credit card right now, and I'm trying to furnish and move into a new house and need to put about $10k of appliances purchases through the cards ASAP. They explain that, sorry, they need to wait a week or two (I was incensed and don't remember clearly at this point) before they can do anything.

Luckily a week later when I rolled up to finish cleaning the old house, the cards were still there, albeit a bit damp.

In the meantime I'd applied for a Blue Cash Preferred (which gets 6% cashback on instacart!) and they had it to me overnight and dropped it on the doorstep of my new house which was a new construction and not even in some systems yet as a valid address. Their support as been good so far, too, though I haven't had to call them but once so far.

(Thanks for coming to my TED talk.)

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by pb7 on Friday October 09, 2020 @05:40PM (#24734716)
I am also a huge fan of Schwab and would recommend them to anyone that is looking for a brokerage (and checking account with no ATM fees). For such an old (and one would think, stuck in their old ways) institution, they keep up quite well technologically and consumer relations wise. Their website and apps are updated thoughtfully and regularly. The very few times I have had to deal with customer service, it couldn't have gotten smoother or quicker. One time, it was my fault (infringed SEC trade settlement rules and got put on probation required by law) and a knowledgeable man called to very politely explain what had happened and to clear up any confusion going forward. You're not going to get that from Robinhood.
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by thewebcount on Friday October 09, 2020 @10:48PM (#24736368)
> For such an old (and one would think, stuck in their old ways) institution, they keep up quite well technologically and consumer relations wise.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree. While I never had any major problems with them, my company's 401k accounts used to be with them. At the time (this was about 5 years ago) you couldn't have a password longer than 8 characters and they didn't support 2 factor authentication. They had it, just not for your account. It was quite frustrating. Maybe they've finally wised up? But even so, that's hardly keeping up well with tech.

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by PhantomGremlin on Sunday October 11, 2020 @01:27PM (#24747456)
you couldn't have a password longer than 8 characters

It was even worse, if such a thing is possible. Passwords were case insensitive.

https://1password.community/discussion/60363/psa-schwab-now-...

There was an HN discussion about this, but the original article is now lost to the mists of time.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8783790

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by junar on Friday October 09, 2020 @10:10PM (#24736230)
FYI, Charles Schwab was founded in the 1970s, and they were one of the first discount brokerages created after financial deregulation allowed for low-cost trades.

https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/The-genesis-of-disco...

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by freetime2 on Friday October 09, 2020 @06:35PM (#24735125)
I love Schwab and agree their support has always been great. The one thing I wish they had is an automatic money market sweep for cash in my brokerage account. Right now any uninvested cash I have in that account earns me essentially nothing, and my understanding is that Schwab makes a pretty good profit from it.
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by PhantomGremlin on Sunday October 11, 2020 @01:34PM (#24747517)
At this time, because of ZIRP, a money market sweep is worthless in terms of earning interest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_interest-rate_policy

You are right that Schwab makes a pretty good profit from it. The way they do that is by lending "your" money to their margin customers and charging those people 7% or more while paying you pennies.

In a "margin" brokerage account, "your" money is merely a debt obligation of Schwab.

TD Ameritrade (and now I think Schwab) will sweep cash from your brokerage account into a real, genuine, bank account. But the interest rate is still almost nothing.

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by cashewchoo on Friday October 09, 2020 @04:33PM (#24734143)
I will add: one thing I don't like about schwab is their password/account security. They don't offer real 2FA, for instance.
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by dralley on Friday October 09, 2020 @05:16PM (#24734527)
A lot of the alternatives aren't much better. Fidelity for example would allow you to input your password as the numerical equivalent (think phone keypad - A, B or C map to "1" and so on). Which basically requires modifying your password before hashing it (and dramatically reducing entropy in the process).

I'm not sure if they still do this.

http://mattstockton.com/2013/03/20/my-bank-password-is-sort-...

I think I recall Vanguard having had something similar but I can't find it in searching, so perhaps not.

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by karlding on Friday October 09, 2020 @06:37PM (#24735136)
According to Fidelity's website [0] they still do so ("You'll be asked to enter your username and password using the keypad on your phone.").

I basically assume any financial institution that provides support for the old "telephone banking" methods via DTMF tones either stores your password in plaintext or a hashed version that reduces entropy. I'm honestly surprised hackers haven't gotten sophisticated enough to bruteforce these reduced entropy login passwords using a Twilio account.

[0] https://www.fidelity.com/customer-service/phone-numbers/over...

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by SaintGhurka on Friday October 09, 2020 @04:38PM (#24734198)
They do have it. They call it Two Step Verification and I found it in my account security settings.

Or is it not real 2FA somehow?

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by cashewchoo on Friday October 09, 2020 @04:46PM (#24734272)
it's email/sms/phone-based. I consider "real 2fa" to be authenticator-based. Not vulnerable to SIM hijacking.

The email one has different problems (what if my email's hacked too?)

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by callmekit on Friday October 09, 2020 @04:53PM (#24734322)
Schwab's 2FA is app or hardware token-based. https://www.schwab.com/help/two-factor-authentication
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by chrisan on Friday October 09, 2020 @05:07PM (#24734450)
In my account I am only getting the option for "Two-step Verification"

https://client.schwab.com/clientapps/access/securityCenter#/...

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by SaintGhurka on Friday October 09, 2020 @05:19PM (#24734548)
When you hit the "Always at Login" radio button, do you get the "Security Token" option?
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by chrisan on Friday October 09, 2020 @07:37PM (#24735482)
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by cashewchoo on Friday October 09, 2020 @05:11PM (#24734484)
Interesting. You seem to have to contact customer support to get it enabled.

And to enter it, you ... append it to your password?

I'm personally going to hold off on giving them the greenlight here.

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by rochester46 on Friday October 09, 2020 @05:53PM (#24734806)
I was able to enable it myself through the web interface, no contacting customer support required.

>And to enter it, you ... append it to your password?

Are you implying this is wrong somehow? It's a fairly common way to do 2FA and there's nothing wrong with it. On the backend, all it's doing is taking the input, substringing the final 6 characters and inputting that as the code, and then uses the remaining characters as the password input. It's essentially just a shortcut that allows you to log in with one click rather than having to enter your password, click submit, enter a code, then click submit again.

Per the FAQ, if you for some reason don't want to append it to your password, it'll send you to a normal "Enter your 2FA code" form like you're probably used to.

The main issue for me is that the 2FA is locked to using the Symantec VIP 2FA app, which is disappointing from a usability standpoint.

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by kibibyte on Friday October 09, 2020 @07:03PM (#24735302)
On its own, there's nothing inherently wrong with it, aside from it being a very awkward user experience.

But here's where it can go wrong, using ETrade as a specific example. ETrade appends the 2FA token to your password, but also enforces a password character limit. Yep, that means turning on 2FA reduces your password character limit. From what I hear, it has some surprising behavior if your password is already at the character limit and you turn on 2FA.

(Aside: ETrade has some very sketchy security practices, like apparently letting you use the 2FA token on its own to reset your password (according to a coworker), but that's another discussion.)

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by cashewchoo on Monday October 12, 2020 @09:35AM (#24754177)
FWIW, World of Warcraft has had a sublime 2FA solution for like a decade at this point. So when schwab has 1) weird UX around logging in and 2) you have to contact customer support to enable something that should be standard security functionality in 2020, then yeah, I'm going to hold off on endorsing their 2fa implementation.

FWIW I think 2) is the bigger sin here.

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by jrib on Saturday October 10, 2020 @09:47AM (#24738974)
You can optionally input it at the end of your password. If you don't then they will prompt you for it. The option to append it to your password when logging in saves you from having to fill out two input boxes.
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by kibibyte on Friday October 09, 2020 @06:55PM (#24735250)
For me, it sends me to a secondary login page that asks specifically for the Symantec VIP or hardware token. If they are appending it to the end of my password, it's not evident to me.
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by jrib on Saturday October 10, 2020 @09:45AM (#24738960)
They offer a physical token if you call and ask for it. They also offer the option of using some Symantec app as a second factor but I've never tried that.

https://www.schwab.com/help/two-factor-authentication

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by dmoy on Friday October 09, 2020 @06:59PM (#24735280)
The only US brokerage that offers real 2fa is vanguard (last I checked), and even they mess it up by allowing sms fallback.

It still will allow you to avoid phishing if you never use the sms fallback, but it does make you vulnerable to sim attacks of the variety "convince phone store rep to replace 'your' lost sim card"

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by jrib on Saturday October 10, 2020 @09:48AM (#24738981)
What makes Schwab's implementation with a hard token not "real"?
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by dmoy on Saturday October 10, 2020 @12:19PM (#24739939)
Because it's still trivially vulnerable to phishing

Any kind of otp/totp leaves you with too much risk

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by throw182982 on Friday October 09, 2020 @05:39PM (#24734711)
I use a Verisign (Symantec?) VIP token on my account. Several years ago they actually mailed me the key fob, later they let me give them my mobile token's serial number (generated by python-vipaccess) so I could use that instead.
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by dillondoyle on Friday October 09, 2020 @04:50PM (#24734296)
i LOVE schwab recommend their checking account to anyone. I also have a TCF account from my childhood and the difference is so stark.

Schwab has a US based super super helpful call center. They will talk to visa on your behalf and fix any problems immediately. They will go out of there way to be very nice and helpful. they've waived wire fees for me when they had very little reason to. So amazing.

You can't even get a human on the phone at TCF and they even recently got rid of local branch phone numbers you can't find it - which is insane.

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by rurp on Friday October 09, 2020 @05:45PM (#24734748)
I can second this. I had some technical issues with Fidelity[0] and Vanguard[1] and both support groups were absolutely useless. I switched to Schwab and it has been a breeze. Everything so far has been really smooth and the little bit I've had to interact with support they were on the ball.

[0]Transfers kept failing for no clear reason. [1]My account got into some sort of state where if I tried to login it said my account didn't exist, but when I tried to create a new one it said I already had an account.

Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by jessriedel on Friday October 09, 2020 @05:04PM (#24734424)
Strongly agree on Citi. I had an identical situation: I repeated multiple times that I needed the new card sent to a different address than I had on file, the person repeatedly assured me they would, and then they sent it to the address on file.
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by aojdwhsd on Friday October 09, 2020 @05:31PM (#24734659)
Citi's internal system for these credit cards sucks. The main application used for account management will tell the worker one thing and do another. Workarounds must be employed by the workers for many routine actions (or things like this happen).
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by toomuchtodo on Friday October 09, 2020 @04:38PM (#24734199)
Citi is horrendous.
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by JackFr on Friday October 09, 2020 @06:59PM (#24735274)
For non-credit card banking I’ve been with them 25 years and have never had a problem.
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by toomuchtodo on Friday October 09, 2020 @07:19PM (#24735393)
Can’t speak to their deposit account offerings (I use Chase, Schwab, and Fidelity for that), but my credit experiences with Citi were bad enough I switched to Amex exclusively for credit cards (Platinum and Gold charge cards, Schwab investor card, etc). Data point noted, many thanks.
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by pmiller2 on Friday October 09, 2020 @06:01PM (#24734855)
Speaking of support, one of the huge issues I had with Fidelity when I was with them was that after 2 PM Pacific (5 PM Eastern), there's literally nobody there who can actually do anything if something is messed up. This eventually lead to me moving my account to E*Trade, where my company's stock plan accounts are hosted. Thankfully, that process was completely seamless, and I've had 0 problems so far, but I do wonder what would happen if I somehow discovered an issue at 3 PM that needed a timely resolution.
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by cortesoft on Friday October 09, 2020 @04:22PM (#24734034)
Also, the other brokerages have also moved to free trades, so it isn’t an advantage anymore.
Re:Robinhood Accounts Looted, No Customer Support by JackFr on Friday October 09, 2020 @06:55PM (#24735246)
It’s surprising with the level of scrutiny and regulation they're under that there isn’t a regulatory requirement for a minimal level of customer service.