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Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by commandlinefan on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @09:55AM (#24627829)
> You can reduce poverty by giving people money

... until you run out.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by LargeWu on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:27AM (#24628230)
Let's look at this a different way. How many people dealing drugs are doing so because they feel they don't have better prospects. How much does drug abuse cost society?

If society took the money they put towards policing, treatment, etc., and prevented that problem in the first place by just giving cash handouts, could it save both money and suffering?

I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure just reflexively looking at top-line costs isn't the way to improve society.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by nitrogen on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:32PM (#24629877)
The only ex-dealer I've met was doing it because he could make $800 in an hour in semirural southern California. It's hard to convince someone making easy, risky money to switch to making less, hard, but sure money
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by dsr_ on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:46PM (#24630058)
A government can make it harder, increase the risk, or lower the profitability.

For example, if you register heroin addicts and supply them with clean heroin on a regular basis, you destroy the market for heroin.

If you legalize and regulate cocaine like tobacco, you can destroy billions of dollars worth of criminal activity.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by phone8675309 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @06:02PM (#24633560)
The for-profit prison industry, who use incarcerated people as labor for pennies an hour, has enough political sway in this country that I have reluctantly accepted that these reforms are essentially never going to happen in my lifetime.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by asdff on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @08:50PM (#24634758)
In places like Alabama prisoners aren't always paid. Slavery still exists as a punishment in this country.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by retrac on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:13AM (#24628049)
That's assuming there's no return on the investment, of course.

One of the strongest arguments for heavy foreign aid and development in my opinion is the squandered human potential. The man or woman who could be the next Einstein may well be tending a cassava field right now. That's our loss as well as theirs.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by DINKDINK on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:44PM (#24630025)
>That's assuming there's no return on the investment, of course.

Was there an assertion that there isn't a return on investment? Asserting that the inevitable outcome of rampant income redistribution is systemic collapse is compatible with "investment in personnel has returns"

Forcing the most productive workers to subsidize the consumption of unprofitable workers always leads to failure. "How am I to eat when I only grow 10kg of wheat a year but need to eat 11kg? We should use the state's violence to take 1kg from the farmer who grows 20kg and eats 12kg, Now I can grow 13kg of wheat for every 12kg I eat! A net gain in production!"

It's a misallocation of capital, simultaneously (the apparent) investing in the more profitable producer would have been better and (the non apparent) that deluding the worker into believing farming 13kg of wheat for every 12kg increases the price of the input goods and input labor for other industries.

Marxist Communism's argument is essentially: "While capitalism's losses are privatized, the fact that the profits are also privatized causes everyone to suffer. Instead of allow bricolage economics, the state's central planners will be to sole source of investment and sole consumer. Profits will be nationalized but losses will also be nationalized."

Having that state be the sole investor in an economic -- a monopoly on entrepreneurship -- dooms it to failure. It does not mean "investments [even centrally planned ones] don't returns"

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:48AM (#24629255)
> The man or woman who could be the next Einstein may well be tending a cassava field right now.

Probably not. Einstein was not a solitary genius. He lived in a culture and society that placed high value on learning and especially math.

He was also in communication with some very gifted people such as Emmy Noether who actually discovered the mathematical foundation for much of his work.

Srinivasan Ramanujan on the other hand is a much better example of finding someone who had super human abilities in an unexpected place.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by nitrogen on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:33PM (#24629900)
He lived in a culture and society that placed high value on learning and especially math.

Thus the aid, to attempt to create that society.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by vsareto on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:23AM (#24628174)
>... until you run out.

Hm, maybe we should chill on these COVID bailouts then

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by nicoffeine on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:06AM (#24628703)
This is a tired line that needs to die. It was popularized by Thatcher in 1976.

Take a look at Norway's finances from that date until today.[1]

Norway decided that the profits from natural resources belonged to every citizen of Norway, not just the companies that landed the leases. The profits were invested in infrastructure, including education, and conservatively invested in external markets as a hedge to internal economic crises. The results speak for themselves.[2]

America has more natural resources, more workers, more opportunities to make sensible economic decisions that provide for the well being of everyone. Instead we have an oligarchy that write laws to benefit themselves. The claims that it won't work here because market socialism "doesn't work", or because America is "too different" are pure bullshit.

[1] https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NOR/norway/gdp-per-cap...

[2] http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/norway/

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by Apocryphon on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:46PM (#24630052)
The Fed disagrees.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by gonzo41 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:32AM (#24628290)
Well if you're American. You've got this big military costing you heaps that could probably have some fat trimmed of it. 1 less JSF would feed and cloth and house a lot of homeless.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by 0xffff2 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:46AM (#24628445)
If you're the American Federal government, you don't need to trim military spending. You can just print more money. We've been doing it for quite a while now with hardly any ill effect.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by gonzo41 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:56AM (#24628573)
Oh I totally agree, money's only really 'real' on the small scale. When you're able to wield the authority and sovereignty to make you're own central bank. That's when money becomes a policy tool. Hence why central bankers hate bitcoin.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by kyuudou on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:02AM (#24628656)
> hardly any ill effect.

Surely you're being sarcastic? There's this minor issue of inflation which results in constantly paying more $ for the same goods.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by 0xffff2 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:07AM (#24628708)
We've been printing money hand over fist since 2008. Inflation has been been normal. Classical economics no longer correctly models reality.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by noworriesnate on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:14PM (#24629634)
No it's still accurate. The idea of classical economics here is that when the money supply in circulation increases and the total goods for sale stay the same, prices increase as well. What we're seeing is that because the USD is the world's exchange currency, it is a good way for foreigners to store wealth. So all these dollars end up locked away overseas which means that the money supply in circulation doesn't expand.

Of course, the US can only play this game so long before we devalue our currency enough that it's worth it for the world to switch to another currency. And when that happens, the USD will no longer be a good store of value, which means all those dollars will come flooding back. And we'll experience decades of inflation in a very short period of time, with disastrous consequences.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by Apocryphon on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:50PM (#24630099)
Are there even viable alternatives right now? The Euro? RMB? Bitcoin? Because if there aren’t any, then the whole world is forced to play along.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by bdamm on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:14PM (#24629636)
Or maybe it is still there, growing like a cancer while we plow on with the blinders. 12 years is not really a long time in terms of monetary policy.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by kyuudou on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @01:16PM (#24630404)
Depends on who you ask. I track things like food staples the value of which to humanity stays about the same e.g. eggs, milk, bread... Shadowstats[1] is an alternative view of CPI etc.

1: http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by DINKDINK on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:14PM (#24629638)
>Inflation has been been normal

Inflation's been normal? Maybe we don't share the same reality. Let's continue with the USA, which previous commenters have be referencing.

The median price of a US home has gone up 45% [1] since 2008 when The Fed started "printing money hand over fist". Did the quality of all homes suddenly go up by 45% in lockstep? I would doubt that. It could be that all people started to be more productive simultaneously, and despite an aversion to paying a premium on housing, the price increase is merely a symptom of a supply-restricted market -- and yet Median incomes (household, individual) only increased (26%[2],28%[3]).

The US is experiencing at least 13% and practically 45% asset-price inflation over the period you referenced. I would hardly say that's "normal". It's the sign of a dying currency -- one that cannot maintain its long term purchasing power. [4]

>Classical economics no longer correctly models reality.

Economics is not physics -- it's an intangible process of action, human action. One cannot make an economic model of the utility I get from the sloth of laying in a field on a warm day, even if it means I'll be less robust against a winter storm. "Ce qu'on voit et ce qu'on ne voit pas" and TNSTAAFL still hold despite what the central planners decree.

[1] https://dqydj.com/historical-home-prices/ [2] https://dqydj.com/household-income-by-year/ [3] https://dqydj.com/individual-income-by-year/

[4] Living in a home is a consumptive act: Using land, material, past labor for one's enjoyment. It is not "investing". One may try to reduce the costs of that consumption by buying the house etc.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @04:44PM (#24632753)
> Inflation's been normal?

Actually, inflation has been very low.

> The median price of a US home has gone up 45%

The median sale price of existing homes has gone up 45%. Without knowing the profile of homes sold, it's hard to say what it means. It could just be that turnover has accelerated at the higher end of the market, or slowed at the lower end, or both (which would be consistent with basically everything I've seen about the real estate market since 2008, both in terms of direct reports and indirect influences—better lending terms but stricter qualifications to get a loan at all, for instance.)

> The US is experiencing at least 13% and practically 45% asset-price inflation over the period you referenced.

Asset-price inflation isn’t what the unqualified term inflation refers to, and aside for the fact that money supply can drive both, is otherwise driven by different forces to general inflation (both in terms of distributional and behavioral drivers.)

> I would hardly say that's "normal".

Why not? Certainly the home price measure you've chosen went up a lot less in the 12 years from the trough in 2008 that you measured from than it did in the 12 years leading up to the peak just before the downturn. Even ignoring the question of whether it's a relevant measure, by what standard is it unusually high?

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by pnutjam on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @01:21PM (#24630470)
Hmmm. I wonder if tax policy has anything to do with this, or the way wealthy people can shelter money in a residence. I wonder if lack of savings interest is a big driver...

In short, your analysis is grade school level.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by DINKDINK on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @02:49PM (#24631482)
>your analysis is grade school level

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't analyze anything. My goal was to assert: Inflation is present in the US economy, Home prices as an example; and to provide some relative bounds on what that rate might be.

>I wonder if tax policy has anything to do with this

What's you thesis of the tax policy changes that occurred in the past 12 years that caused asset-price inflation?

>way wealthy people can shelter money in a residence

How are "wealthy people" "sheltering money" in the bottom 50% of all home prices -- those homes who prices would need to change to change the median price?

>lack of savings interest is a big driver

The opportunity of high, investment returns doesn't reduce the prices of the goods we need to buy to exist.

If I was to actually provide some analysis for the price increases, I'd posit: Downward, interest-rate manipulation by central banks has caused systemic-wide credit expansion. The new money that results from this policy affects economic of all goods but most severely inelastic goods -- such as houses and in markets that receive artificial economic intervention from central planners (in the US, the housing market is a prime example).

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by pnutjam on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @12:07PM (#24640249)
Assets that don't increase in value are "losing money", per economic theory. Homes are a low interest money sink. You can buy a home, hold it and get a decent return on your money. You can also mortgage the home at low interest, and gamble that money for higher interest in stocks, etc. You can use rental income to offset your mortgage costs.

This is a perfect storm for pushing up costs and denying lower income Americans the ability to pay rent and buy homes.

citations: https://blogs.cornell.edu/cradle/2019/02/11/what-the-federal...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/advisor/2020/07/28/fed-policy-h...

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by kyuudou on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @01:18PM (#24630423)
I very much agree with DINKDINK's comments.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by kyuudou on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @01:13PM (#24630358)
Inflation is not "normal" to me. It is theft by dilution to encourage "velocity". As long as it's a reality I have to constantly search for ways not to grow my wealth but to even simply maintain what I've worked for. It encourages unrealistic economic growth which is not environmentally sustainable in the long term. And IMO it's immoral.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by bioinformatics on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:07AM (#24627965)
When everything is free, nothing is. Some people have no understanding that infinite money doesn't mean infinite problems in the end. At some point in time, someone will pay the bill.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by shakezula on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:10AM (#24628001)
Yeah but no one is saying to give people infinite money? Poverty is expensive, and it’s cheaper in the medium term to house homeless for free and get them on track to paying taxes again than to let them run up hospital bills for preventable injuries or illnesses.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:12AM (#24628027)
A central bank with the authority over a reserve currency never runs out. We (the US Fed, specifically) incinerated $3 trillion in USD value in response to COVID. We've borrowed and continue to service trillions in debt for useless decades+ wars. We can afford it (because it's cheaper to pay for these things upfront, before they're more expensive down the road), and those who say we can't use that as an excuse to avoid the uncomfortable conversation about why they don't want to pay for it.

Providing the homeless with housing reduces social service and ER costs [1]. Paying for IUDs and other forms of long term birth control reduces unwanted pregnancies [2]. These are just two examples, but the thesis is sound: spend now, get ahead of the curve, and have less spend need in the future. Instead of technical debt, this is policy debt, which leads to actual debt.

[1] https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chroni...

[2] https://powertodecide.org/what-we-do/information/national-st...

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by RHSeeger on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:15AM (#24628075)
Assuming you just print unlimited amounts of money because it convenient, how do you deal with the inflation that comes with that?
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by jcranmer on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:17AM (#24628095)
At some point, the inflation does become a problem. But notice how it hasn't yet? Take a look at Japan, which has printed an awful lot of money and yet inflation is still hard to come by.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:21AM (#24628148)
> notice how it hasn't yet?

We've been pumping new money into financial channels. A UBI would pump it into real channels.

That said, this article is about a municipal program. Cities don't print money. They transfer it from some groups to others.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by RHSeeger on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:42AM (#24628398)
The comment I was responding to was about the central bank.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:47AM (#24628461)
I don't see the need to plan for inflation until a future point arrives that demonstrates there might be inflation. Looking at evidence from developed countries and their central banks, they are unable to generate an appreciable amount of inflation from monetary policy (significant quantitive easing operations). Maybe generous fiscal policy causes it (UBI, "helicopter money", and the like), it just seems a bit disingenuous to argue what we'll do about a hurdle that seems unlikely to present itself (many developed country central banks are near zero, at zero [ZIPR], or below zero interest rates [NIRP] [1] [2] and you're still not generating inflation [3] so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).

Spain is experimenting with something not quite UBI [4] (but close enough for this comment I will refer to it as such), and their inflation rate is currently negative [5]. Something to follow.

EDIT: jcranmer said it better in a sibling comment ("To me, it seems a case of economists clinging to models that predict the opposite of reality, and it contributes to my general impression that economists prefer mathematical models even if their correlation to reality is poor.") [6].

[1] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/chart-the-downward-spiral-i...

[2] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/...

[3] https://voxeu.org/article/great-disinflation-emerging-and-de...

[4] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01993-3

[5] https://tradingeconomics.com/spain/inflation-cpi

[6] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24629128

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by notahacker on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:52PM (#24630125)
> Looking at evidence from developed countries and their central banks, they are unable to generate an appreciable amount of inflation from monetary policy (significant quantitive easing operations)

Since QE operations were not designed to produce inflation (and were arguably designed specifically to not produce consumer price inflation), this isn't exactly surprising. They did, however, affect prices of the assets the government bought up as predicted.

Suffice to say, there's a massive difference between monetary expansions in a time of deep recession - economic policy orthodoxy since Keynes - and the assumption that inflation isn't a thing in developed countries.

It's much the same as a startup can pay for stuff by emitting more equity: pay for the right stuff and the value of the company might actually rise and there are many examples of valuations leaping afterwards, but you can't just assume these examples and the infinite divisibility of the cap table means no startup needs to worry about dilution or impact on future valuations.

> Spain is experimenting with something not quite UBI [4] (but close enough for this comment I will refer to it as such), and their inflation rate is currently negative [5]. Something to follow.

Spain reforming its benefits system to create a new payout to 5% off its population to be funded by debt and taxes isn't remotely similar to Spain reforming its benefits system to pay its entire population newly printed money, so the fact the former has little immediately evident inflationary impact in the middle of Covid tells us very little about the latter.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by RHSeeger on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:04AM (#24628680)
Given the nearly unlimited number of places one can find explanations of why printing more money causes inflation, I think it's reasonable to assume that, at worst, it _can_ do so. As such, throwing caution to the wind and just printing as much money as you need because "it wasn't a problem in <that country>" seems risky.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by jcranmer on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @11:38AM (#24629128)
When you have a model that says something should happen under certain conditions, and every practical instantiation of those conditions have failed to cause the predicted effects, perhaps your model is wrong.

I'm reminded of the Phillips curve which relates inflation and unemployment. If you graph these data points for the 1950s and the 1960s, you do get a great correlation. But extend the graph to the 1970s and the 1980s and the data instead looks a lot more like a random scatterplot. Yet the concept is important enough to be covered in Economics 101 textbooks. To me, it seems a case of economists clinging to models that predict the opposite of reality, and it contributes to my general impression that economists prefer mathematical models even if their correlation to reality is poor.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by unishark on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @01:14PM (#24630377)
What in tiny experiments like the article's? Inflation and even hyperinflation have occurred many times in many places in the last century. In Venezuela the inflation rate is something like 2000 percent. It's not just theory. Even the US had double digit inflation when I was in school. We were taught things about the time value of money (using numbers like 8 percent interest rates) that seem nuts now.

As for interpreting trends unwisely, isn't that what you're doing by noting a lack of inflation and arguing therefore that fundamentals don't matter. Common sense says if you give out more cash, people can bid up prices higher. There are undoubtedly variables not accounted for in all economic models. As the statisticians say, "all models are wrong". But those unknown variables can turn on you too. Every bubble consists of people ignoring fundamentals because they don't fit the recent curve, then getting burned when it crashes.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by bdamm on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:17PM (#24629679)
Or, the model is right, but the system is being gamed in a way that isn't clear to us in the public. Then when we find out what the game is it'll be too late.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by tptacek on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:40PM (#24629982)
Aren't you worried that there's really no model that you can't support with that logic, no matter how dumb it might be?
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by lmm on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:26PM (#24635152)
You have to actually examine the specifics of the issue and see whether the measures actually reflect the reality. But in this specific case there's a pretty strong case that what's broken down is not the relationship between how many people are able to find work and the rate of inflation, but the relationship between how many people are able to find work and the "unemployment rate".
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by bdamm on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @03:31PM (#24631928)
Yes. It comes with the territory of realizing that there are actors gaming the biggest systems around, and part of the game is building support for those gaming the system, without knowing which segments of our society are participating.
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by notahacker on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @12:56PM (#24630171)
I'm more worried about the implicit economics textbooks cover how an old model was falsified in the 1970s, therefore we should assume every other economic model is also false argument he was responding to...
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by nitrogen on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @01:32PM (#24630623)
Have the metrics used by models changed? E.g. can you hypothetically define away inflation by excluding property prices from the basket?
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by freedomben on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:21AM (#24628141)
FYI to people trying to follow, this is MMT, Modern Monetary Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory
Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by shireboy on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:53AM (#24628538)
I'm admittedly skeptical of MMT, but turning that argument around, IF it were true that the US can never run out of money, then why worry at all about the cost of things? Why not just print 100% of the money to provide 100% of the things people want?

WRT providing homeless with housing and birth control specifically, I think a very strong argument can be made that a government agency is not the best provider of that service. Why wait for a slow, inefficient bureaucracy to waste a bunch of the money and time on admin costs? Every athlete and actress telling us from their multi-million-dollar homes we need to help the homeless could pool their excess money in a non-profit trust and just do it. They would help way more people with way less effort. People unable to do so need not be coerced through the tax system into participating in a less efficient program.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by lmm on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @10:42PM (#24635212)
> IF it were true that the US can never run out of money, then why worry at all about the cost of things? Why not just print 100% of the money to provide 100% of the things people want?

The point of MMT is not that it's impossible to cause inflation, but that printing money and investing it in the national interest doesn't, for the same reason that issuing shares doesn't reduce a company's stock price if those shares are being issued in exchange for a capital investment. We shouldn't print money to fund consumption, but we should be happy to print money to pay for infrastructure, healthcare, research - anything that's ultimately going to return more money to the economy than it costs.

> WRT providing homeless with housing and birth control specifically, I think a very strong argument can be made that a government agency is not the best provider of that service. Why wait for a slow, inefficient bureaucracy to waste a bunch of the money and time on admin costs?

Why do you believe that a government is more likely to be a slow inefficient bureaucracy than a private NGO or whatever it is that you're suggesting?

> People unable to do so need not be coerced through the tax system into participating in a less efficient program.

No-one with that kind of money is "unable" to pay their fair share of taxes. They choose not to.

It's the same as everyone paying their share of a dinner. If one person skipped out, everyone else could probably cover their meal without really noticing. But everyone would object to doing that, because no-one wants to feel like a sucker.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by shireboy on Friday October 02, 2020 @10:46AM (#24663149)
I may question MMT premise, but the comment I was replying to said "central bank with the authority over a reserve currency never runs out". Here, you qualify that a little more to say "central bank with the authority over a reserve currency never runs out... as long as they spend it on infrastructure, not consumption". A little more palatable, but I would still question whether any given thing is "going to return more money to the economy than it costs". Any savvy investor knows such "sure bets" are usually scams. The real problem is we don't know what the return on, say, a bridge to nowhere, study of cow farts, or blanket no-strings-attached UBI is, or what the unintended consequences or opportunity cost of such investments is. So we should experiment, but I don't see true, objective, double blind experiments being done in most of these UBI experiments, or real attention to the downsides. Just some hand-waving "meh, don't worry about the deficit or inflation, it'll pay for itself", without real evidence. Also, who defines what is "infrastructure"? Is oil exploration "infrastructure"? Google and Facebook? Too-big-to-fail financial companies? Government officials kids and friends?

> Why do you believe that a government is more likely to be a slow inefficient bureaucracy than a private NGO or whatever it is that you're suggesting? Because I've worked with government organizations. A large chunk of the employees lack motivation for what they are doing. Arcane employment rules mean you can't fire people who are dead weight, or pay the well-performing people based on merit. NGOs and private sector have other motivations that usually (not always) makes for more efficiency. One has only to go to their local DMV to see this. And of course, it's a spectrum. Most reasonable people see merits in some government programs, and some private. Where to draw those lines vary.

>It's the same as everyone paying their share of a dinner.

I think a better analogy is a group where half want to go to a really expensive lavish restaurant (UBI+Universal Healthcare+Free Housing), and the other half want to go to a local pub (safety nets, small government, private charity). They could fight over which place to go, or, just each go to their own place. No need for the expensive dinners to insist the pub-goers go with them, or for the pub-goers to begrudge the restaurant-goers their meal. The "unable" I referred to were poor-to-middle class. I'm saying a middle class person saving for her retirement and kids' education, need not be coerced by millionaire class actors and athletes into paying for UBI or other programs she doesn't think are wise investments. If the Screen Actors Guild members think UBI is so great, their first step could be to set up one with their own funds.

Re:Cities Experiment with Remedy for Poverty: Cash, No Strin... by lmm on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @04:40AM (#24706368)
> I think a better analogy is a group where half want to go to a really expensive lavish restaurant (UBI+Universal Healthcare+Free Housing), and the other half want to go to a local pub (safety nets, small government, private charity). They could fight over which place to go, or, just each go to their own place. No need for the expensive dinners to insist the pub-goers go with them, or for the pub-goers to begrudge the restaurant-goers their meal.

The benefits apply at country scale. So it's more like someone saying "well, I'll respect our voting and go to the fancy restaurant if that's what the rest of you want, but I'm only going to pay what a pub meal would have cost because I'd rather go to the pub" - i.e. a major dick move.