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Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by schoolornot on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:09PM (#24611824)
What exactly is the national security risk with TikTok?
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by libraryatnight on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:14PM (#24611867)
Propaganda. You don't have to bother making troll farm accounts to spread misinformation and sow doubt when you control the platform and can create and drip content you want into peoples feeds, and you know what they like, you're already serving them an addictive stream of content based on their behaviors.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by Aperocky on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:38PM (#24612055)
I don't have tiktok but according to anecdotal evidence from family members who do, the propaganda you describe seemed to be people doing stupid things in their bathroom while getting hurt in the process.

You'd probably say 'potential' but just think about it, banning something for 'potential'. Is that where we are right now?

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by therealx on Monday September 28, 2020 @02:50AM (#24613668)
The problem is they could pull a Facebook and show certain content to change peoples moods intentionally. It's already proven possible. That said, I'm all for legislation against all social media companies.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by luckylion on Monday September 28, 2020 @03:47AM (#24614069)
Changing their mood would be one thing, though I doubt it'd work on TikTok as well as it might on FB, people go to TikTok for specific types of content. Propaganda would be quite another, TikTok's format doesn't seem to really work for that kind of content, it's short videos, not infographics and texts.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by libraryatnight on Monday September 28, 2020 @01:45AM (#24613333)
I didn't say it should be banned, just that I understand the threat.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by pastaking on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:31PM (#24611989)
Wouldn’t this be better handled by a more sophisticated solution like some kind of law or governance organization? Banning specific apps is like whack a mole. There will also be other countries with opposing ideological beliefs - we probably shouldn’t want to play whack a mole country by country either.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by bamboozled on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:57PM (#24612185)
This is my sentiment, is it's TikTok, it will be rebranded as DikDok next, then what? We block one app at a time?
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by abc-xyz on Monday September 28, 2020 @03:56AM (#24614125)
Why not? It’s basically the only app China have managed to make popular in USA. And they’ve had to blow billions on ads to do so.

I do believe it would be best to block all apps owned by the Chinese, but blocking them one by one would work as well, because it’s incredibly difficult and expensive to obtain the userbase that makes the app worth blocking.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by libraryatnight on Monday September 28, 2020 @01:49AM (#24613351)
I don't really know what to do about it, I just understand why one might be concerned. It's a wild world. I feel like banning things because they're a possible threat is a slippery slope.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by therealx on Monday September 28, 2020 @02:51AM (#24613675)
I agree, and we need something that's equal across the board which will try to handle domestic companies doing things like Facebooks mood experiments.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by nmfisher on Sunday September 27, 2020 @10:09PM (#24612255)
Will the US apply the same rules and ban Facebook, given actual evidence of Russian propaganda/misinformation during the last election?
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by heroprotagonist on Sunday September 27, 2020 @11:19PM (#24612646)
Look how that turned out with Fox News.

We gave an Australian US citizenship so he could get past the limit on foreign ownership of TV stations. He jumped right into bed with US political parties and has a chokehold on one of them by building itself, intentionally, as its media arm.

That said, I think the internet should be free for the most part. If we have to kick them out of the country and deprive them our markets then this should be done by law instead of by authoritarian decree. Google and Apple already have rules against apps that violate laws.

We had these laws and watered them down before because it would benefit a particular political party by putting an influence empire behind it. We just need to update and modernize the laws. Define specific things that are allowed and not allowed.

EG, GDPR-like privacy rules about not sending user data to Asia, with stiff penalties. Restrictions against allowing investment from individual and corporations (and subsidiaries) on a specific watch list, along with defined criteria for getting on that list. EG, Tencent's contending years ago to become the social credit provider for China to help manipulate populace behavior. I'd consider that a human right violation worthy of entry to a list after careful review.

Maybe if we had such things in place, the FBI wouldn't have had to wander around to all of the major US businesses a year or two ago, quietly begging them not to use Kaspersky because it was potentially sending data to Russia. They would either have not been on an approved vendor list due to their sanctions or they could provide sufficient evidence to get them on the list and then demand removal instead of beg for companies to do it voluntarily.

And if strengthening these laws means kicking out Fox News as well, so be it.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by UncleMeat on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:16PM (#24611880)
What makes TikTok different than literally any other website in this manner?
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by mtrpcic on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:23PM (#24611931)
...being controlled by the CCP is what makes it different. All of these sites/apps have the ability to shove propaganda in the faces of millions of people, only one of them is run by a government.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by xvector on Sunday September 27, 2020 @10:11PM (#24612270)
> only one of them is run by a government.

And the rest are run by the ultra-rich. They care about the interests of the Americans not much more than the CCP.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by aggronn on Monday September 28, 2020 @12:52AM (#24613087)
Taking this as true, are you suggesting we should have, instead of our (expanding on what I think you're saying) "non-democratic capitalist ologopoly", have our important companies and institutions be run the by the CCP?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Work to improve our system rather than using our failures to normalize CCP oppression and violence.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by Talanes on Monday September 28, 2020 @01:38AM (#24613305)
If the point is to send a message about normalizing the CCP, then Apple's gotta go too.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by aggronn on Monday September 28, 2020 @11:59AM (#24618065)
Yes, there's a lot we need to be doing to put pressure on the CCP that we aren't currently doing, and it also doesn't need to be binary. There's a difference between Apple doing business in China, and a Chinese company doing business in the US. China has considerable influence on Apple, but not as much as it does on TikTok. Tim Cook's family isn't at risk of jail if he criticizes the CCP.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by stjohnswarts on Monday September 28, 2020 @12:50AM (#24613082)
The bigger thing is them dragnetting 100 million Americans for data like interests, conversations, contacts, location, private videos, etc. Not to much potential for pushing backdoors into to target individuals.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by p1necone on Monday September 28, 2020 @04:53AM (#24614490)
There are a lot of Chinese companies that do business in the USA, why is Tik Tok special?
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by UncleMeat on Monday September 28, 2020 @03:09PM (#24620190)
Surely there are other websites like this. Bytedance isn't the only chinese company that exists. Should my browser not allow me to visit those websites?
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by FpUser on Sunday September 27, 2020 @10:09PM (#24612257)
And what prohibits any three letter agency hiring some intermediary and do the same thing on Facebook for example?
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by pessimizer on Sunday September 27, 2020 @10:37PM (#24612410)
> hiring some intermediaries

There's absolutely no need. Facebook cooperates with three-letter agencies, and we expect them to.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by FpUser on Sunday September 27, 2020 @11:07PM (#24612588)
You seriously think that if one of those decided to influence election (for a greater good of course) you would expect direct cooperation of FB in the matter?

I'd think that the guilty party should be prosecuted for doing things like that.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by stjohnswarts on Monday September 28, 2020 @12:54AM (#24613094)
He's talking about handing over information, not launching a "elect the next Manchurian candidate" campaign run by the NSA.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by FpUser on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:30AM (#24615119)
Then he'd completely missed my original point that was about practical inability to prevent that exact scenario - "elect the next Manchurian candidate campaign run by the NSA". I do not think juducial review will enter the picture here. I am not sure what practical legal mechanism is available to prevent such scenario. I guess it would run the risk of being exposed by some whistleblower but with the latest developments in the area the chances are that it wont.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by jacobush on Monday September 28, 2020 @10:55AM (#24617279)
At this point I have doubts about who employs the Manchurian candidates in the first place, people behind the big companies or the three letter agencies. There are revolving doors between them.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by drak0n1c on Sunday September 27, 2020 @10:01PM (#24612202)
Deliberately curated recommendation algorithms to maximize negative perceptions could conceivably be worse than those that do such accidentally.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by guywhocodes on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:23PM (#24611926)
None really, the next Chinese successful "social media" platform will face the same treatment
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by xvector on Sunday September 27, 2020 @10:06PM (#24612234)
No different than MSM owners in the US using propaganda to manipulate hundreds of millions of Americans to their own ways.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by russli1993 on Monday September 28, 2020 @12:13AM (#24612887)
And i just saw an anti-China anti-ccp video on tiktok yesterday. A number of them last week. I saw pro Hong Kong Independence video too. If the ccp is manipulating public opinion using tiktok, they are doing a terrible job at it. Bytedance is incorporated in Cayman islands. From a legal perspective it's not subjected to any Chinese laws, including the intelligence law. The tiktok subsidiary is not under Chinese law as well. The management of tiktok is all Americans. And Tiktok is run by American employees, there are 1500 of them. If Chinese government is forcing them to manipulate the algorithm in favor of Chinese, they would have said something in public by now. Also, 2 out of 4 board members of the company is none Chinese. American investor Sequoia and BlackRock owns 40% of the company. They obviously would know if the company is owned by the government right? They also know the day to day operations of the company and they would know if tiktok is being used by the Chinese government for propaganda purposes right?

Honestly, given the amount of smearing and disinformation about China and Chinese government in Western media, I can honestly say the ccp is super weak at doing any kind of PR messaging. Half the world still believes the coronavirus is manufacturered by the Wuhan lab and is released to world as a bio weapon. Even when scientists have repeatedly debunked it as a conspiracy theory. It's almost as if ccp isn't even trying at controlling the public opinion. Just let the rumors fly wild. Back in April, I have seen so many videos about this conspiracy theory on Tiktok. Meanwhile, look at how fox news, PragerU and other conservative media are blaming China and defending Trump for things US scientists, public health experts and policy makers have called him on. Look at how they have attacked Dem cities and Dem leaders while promoting themselves as the just and righteous. This looks more like manipulating public opinion and pushing out propaganda to me.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by pier25 on Sunday September 27, 2020 @10:09PM (#24612258)
So like Youtube or Facebook?
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by crumbshot on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:22PM (#24611924)
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by IfOnlyYouKnew on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:29PM (#24611977)
You may be right (and the publicity alone would be sufficcient for this thin-skinned lunatic), but... doesn't that story rest on somewhat tenuous logic?

I. e. they claim to have reserved far more tickets than capacity would allow to attend. But that seems to demonstrate that tickets weren't limited by capacity. So how did their action prevent other people from getting tickets?

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by gpm on Monday September 28, 2020 @03:51AM (#24614091)
Blackmail material gathered from it.

Various forms of location data gathered from it, e.g. the location of any member of the military that uses it.

Launching pad for zero days if China feels the need to root someones (or many someones) phones.

Massive social graph, massive amounts of behavioral data. Useful, for doing things like identifying who was likely recruited by a spy agency or identifying potential assets that can be turned.

Potential to pressure speech that China prefers, e.g. by rewarding popular creators with money only if they don't say things China likes, or by decreasing the reach of people who say things China dislikes.

Potential for foreign control of the general trends of content people see. E.g. tweaking the algorithm so "it just happens" to suppress the potential to suppress topics china would prefer we didn't talk about (e.g. their "re-education" camps) or to boost topics they would prefer we did (likely things like political infighting).

Most of these involve various levels of overtness. Many of them it probably only makes sense to start doing once you've captured the market (right now it's more important to onboard more people than to push a message). But I would view all of them as real threats if I was the US government.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by slimsag on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:12PM (#24611852)
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by 082349872349872 on Monday September 28, 2020 @09:57AM (#24616622)
Given that the oldest item on that list is 1993, I'm going to say they were all written by newbies.

(my current bibliography only goes back to 1919, but a historical survey in a mid-century work came up with biblical examples of information warfare.)

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by mike503 on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:10PM (#24611841)
They’ll know all the social media patterns and likes of 14 year olds!
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by triceratops on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:13PM (#24611864)
14 year olds grow up eventually and occupy important positions in society - judges, lawmakers, businesspeople and the like.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dapids on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:13PM (#24611865)
And that is somehow acceptable?
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by sheeshkebab on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:22PM (#24611922)
An incident in 2020 where TikTok users apparently tanked some Trump campaign rally probably is a bit more practical preview what controlling recommendations and likes could let CCP do (eventually... if they were not involved this time around) https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-trump-rally-...
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by rgbrenner on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:32PM (#24611997)
I went to an Obama rally when he was running and just showed up.. no tickets. Got all the way to the front of the crowd. Another option is to charge a nominal fee for a ticket.

Trump's problem was that he wanted to hand out free tickets over the internet. Just don't do that.. problem solved.

If that's the limit of TikTok's power.. then I think we're going to be ok.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by bravo22 on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:13PM (#24611860)
Or they can push narratives and stories to manipulate their audience? If the main search engine in a country was controlled by a foreign entity that would be cause for concern.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by YarickR2 on Sunday September 27, 2020 @11:29PM (#24612702)
Like.. IDK...Google ?
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by bravo22 on Monday September 28, 2020 @01:23PM (#24619044)
Exactly.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by ekianjo on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:58PM (#24612187)
What exactly is the risk of a single channel of information controlled by one of the worst governments on Earth, massively used by younger people who are in the age of voting?

Are you sure you need an explanation?

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by xvector on Sunday September 27, 2020 @10:14PM (#24612284)
> a single channel of information

You mean one channel out of hundreds?

> controlled by one of the worst governments on Earth,

As opposed to our current channels of information, that are controlled by billionaires that also couldn’t care less about Americans?

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by LK83 on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:27PM (#24611966)
I think they are just angry that TikTok users trolled the Trump Tulsa Rally.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by _jahh on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:18PM (#24611895)
child forces parent to install tiktok so they can watch memes, parent works anywhere sensitive TT pwns that phone
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by jtdev on Sunday September 27, 2020 @09:13PM (#24611859)
Mass behavioral data exfiltration... mass biometric data exfiltration (faces)... censorship of those critical of CCP within the U.S... psychological persuasion of the masses... etc., etc.