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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:14PM (#24584299)
But this type of reasoning went out the window, as soon as humans started killing dolphins in large numbers (see tuna nets), and the dolphins had no way to defend themselves or otherwise dissuade humans from doing that.

This is one of the big lessons in history. The civilizations that use their intelligence to make tools and weapons end up screwing civilizations that "muck about, having a good time".

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by Eyas on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:32PM (#24584445)
That's uncomfortably close to Eurocentric claims of superiority that point to their colonization and exploitation of other countries in the eighteenth, nineteenth, and twentieth century.

I don't necessarily buy it. A pacifist civilization might be "dominated" by a violent civilization, but they might still choose death over becoming violent themselves.

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by teucris on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:47PM (#24584582)
I agree with your post but it’s worth noting it does not apply to dolphins. Dolphins are not pacifists[0].

[0] http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160204-cute-and-cuddly-dolp...

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by kyuudou on Friday September 25, 2020 @05:20PM (#24594221)
They can be pretty brutal to sharks and themselves. Also on a more bizarre note they can get rather rape-y esp. on hallucinogens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prmx0lYBTko
Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by worldsayshi on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:48PM (#24584587)
I do not read that the previous poster meant that the superior one was morally superior. Only superior in terms of violent power.

You're not buying it but they're not selling it?

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by notahacker on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:52PM (#24584617)
The nets aren't a plot to subjugate the dolphins though; for the most part humans would rather not have dolphin bycatch. They're just something that dolphins haven't collectively figured out how to avoid.
Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by jychang on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:58PM (#24584656)
That’s like saying humans aren’t intelligent because they can’t avoid car accidents in the rain.

Even if you were super intelligent, i bet you’d get fucked up in a net if you had low visibility in the water, you were traveling at high speed, and you didn’t have opposable thumbs to untangle yourself.

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by notahacker on Thursday September 24, 2020 @07:28PM (#24584878)
If I was an sonar-equipped aquatic mammal that was also superintelligent, I'd expect generations of losses might have taught my civilization not to swim near boats.

(Unless we're positing that running the risk of being trawled is an essential part of mucking about and having fun, or a scientific experiment, or dolphins having enough imagination for some of them to speculate warnings about boats are a conspiracy to keep them from the best fish :D)

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by pilsetnieks on Thursday September 24, 2020 @07:40PM (#24584966)
Boats go where your food is. Avoid boats and you'll have to avoid the most plentiful food sources. Either starve or run the risk that you might stumble upon a boat and someone from your group might get tangled.
Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by jMyles on Thursday September 24, 2020 @08:37PM (#24585300)
> humans aren’t intelligent because they can’t avoid car accidents in the rain

A reasonable exhibit one for the presently observable limits on (at least collective) human intelligence.

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by IggleSniggle on Thursday September 24, 2020 @07:10PM (#24584742)
Where did anyone say anything about superiority? If anything, the implication is that the humans are stupid for not mucking about and having a good time, and that even though the dolphins may be “superior” in this regard, it’s a race to the bottom since the more violent species wipes out the fun-loving one.
Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by jmull on Thursday September 24, 2020 @07:11PM (#24584750)
Well, species success is measured in periods of time orders of magnitude larger than recorded human history.

It’s an open question whether our aggressive strategy will be successful past anything but the very short term. (Currently it’s not looking that good.)

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by nullc on Thursday September 24, 2020 @07:51PM (#24585033)
> (Currently it’s not looking that good.)

I dunno. There is a real, if dwindling and not that large, possibility that mankind breaks free of earth and establishes itself elsewhere.

You can't say that for any other species except perhaps some microscopic extremophiles.

It's only so easy to be cynical about this because of how close we are to something greater, because of how much we are poised to lose.

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by angst_ridden on Thursday September 24, 2020 @07:56PM (#24585062)
Exactly. There are species that have been successful for millions of years.

Modern humanity has certainly impacted the ecology dramatically over the past couple hundred-thousand, but calling us successful is premature. When we're as old as bluegreen algae (or hell, even Araucaria araucana), I'll happily revise my position.

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by fao_ on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:38PM (#24584494)
Aha, so when an interstellar empire comes around and fucks up our planet -- if not outright just sending an asteroid our way, it's justified because we are of a lower technological level?

The humans and proto-humans of the past weren't 'stupid'. And even if they were comparatively, 'stupidity' isn't a justification for committing harmful actions, degrading, or otherwise treating the recipient as lesser. This sounds like a philosophy that encourages "well I'm going to hurt you and it must be right because you can't stop me or dissuade me".

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by filoleg on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:58PM (#24584652)
> it's justified because we are of a lower technological level?

No, it isn't. Just like killing dolphins isn't justified. But it probably means that the interstellar empire in question is very likely to be more intelligent and/or advanced than us.

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by pdonis on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:44PM (#24584545)
> even if they were comparatively, 'stupidity' isn't a justification for committing harmful actions, degrading, or otherwise treating the recipient as lesser

I don't think the GP was saying it is. I think he was trying to look at it from the dolphins' point of view: he was proposing that the fact that they didn't use any of their intelligence (assuming they have it) to construct ways to defend themselves from other intelligent species, like humans, was a mistake on their part.

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by worldsayshi on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:50PM (#24584601)
Why are you assuming that previous poster aimed to justify that behaviour? I don't see that that was implied.
Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by summitsummit on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:22PM (#24584354)
what would be the next trump card above intelligence for survival/evolution/procreation/whatever the "goal" is?
Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by aeternum on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:32PM (#24584450)
I think the ability to 'reprogram' oneself. We are currently more or less stuck with the genetic code we receive at birth. A species which is able to modify their code at will would be incredibly adaptable and would likely surpass us very quickly.
Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by summitsummit on Friday September 25, 2020 @12:19AM (#24586548)
your comment reminds me of something that I secretly do which I personally used to think was kind of bizarre. when i stumble upon evidence or signs that a certain way of my thinking is incorrect, i like to confirm that suspicion and dedicate time to go into a meditative state where i take my findings and effectively attempt to reprogram my mental algorithms/principles. this takes anywhere from 15m to several hours depending on how fundamental and low level the change is. obviously, the perceived roi is immense.

for instance, this is how i converted from religion to atheism (arguably still a religion)... a product of my nurture that i decided to shed. other examples include my interaction model with others which included tenets such as curbing my decidedly unjustified high level of empathy for all others, controversial as it may be.

1. reprogram in the sense of mental models and thoughts or in a literal cells and atoms sense?

2. potentially depending on your definition and scope of `reprogram`, wouldn't that be a subset of intelligence, as opposed to something higher order or different?

3. what kind of behaviors/habits do you think humans (like you or I, not high-funded corporations) could employ now to get as close to achieving your second sentence as possible?

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by novok on Thursday September 24, 2020 @07:47PM (#24585007)
hey we might be there in a couple hundred years
Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by eternalban on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:49PM (#24584594)
Self knowledge and self control.
Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by armatav on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:29PM (#24584425)
Omnipotence. Or something approaching it.