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Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by patrec on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @03:43AM (#24564168)
Do you see any realistic chance of this happening? Generally if a company is captured by a parasitic leadership sucking it dry, that's it, right? Is there anyone on the board whose interests are more aligned with keeping Mozilla alive (probably hard to do at this point) than feasting on it whilst there is still something left to feast on? Presumably you'd need a few such people.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @03:47AM (#24564191)
It is a problem that she is both on the board and CEO, which effectively makes her impossible to hold to account unless the board members that want her out would resign if she does not want to make way. That would be a major statement and would put the remaining board members on notice.

The board typically does not get compensated the way the CEO does so they are usually not in a position to 'suck it dry', on top of that they have some responsibilities and if they don't act in the best interest of the company they might be found to be personally liable depending on the jurisdiction and the details regarding their responsibilities.

I should study that to see if there is any way to solve it but frankly, even though FireFox has been my daily driver since about forever I don't see a happy ending here.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by culturestate on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @05:08AM (#24564752)
> It is a problem that she is both on the board and CEO, which effectively makes her impossible to hold to account

Is this really a problem? The CEO is often a director, and even as chairwoman I doubt anything in the bylaws prevents the board at large from removing her if they wanted to.

Instead, it seems like the board itself is the issue, since they allowed Mozilla to stray so far from its core mission.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jeltz on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @07:31AM (#24565710)
Is that common in the US? Because here in Sweden it is regarded as bad practice for medium sized companies and up. The CEO is almost never part of the board here except for in tiny companies.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by rectang on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @09:46AM (#24566982)
I served on the board of the Apache Software Foundation for a year and everything about the experience convinced me that it is desirable for the board to be completely separate from the corporate officers.

In fact, I have seen this very debate play out in real life. We appointed a new President of the ASF during my term. That person had been a Director, but when they became President they stepped down from the Board.

For a non-profit charity that relies on volunteers, perfect separation is not always feasible, and especially in the early years when the ASF was smaller the President was often a Board member. But although I can't speak for anybody but myself, I believe that the ASF is likely to continue with an informal tradition of separating Board from Officers for the indefinite future.

A similar cultural change ought to be possible at Mozilla — and perhaps elsewhere.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by culturestate on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @10:56AM (#24567843)
Yes, having one or more executive directors is standard operating procedure for public companies in the US. Tim Cook, Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, et al sit on their respective boards.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by rrrazdan on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @10:13AM (#24567299)
Indian here. Extremely common for the CEO to be part of the board. In fact the CEO equivalent "Executive head of company" designation in India before globalization made use of CEO fashionable was 'Managing Director'.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by theSuda on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @11:01AM (#24567924)
Yeah I remember that. While growing up in 90's and even early 2000's, I always heard praises of someone reaching post of MD. The term CEO became common later.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by Conan_Kudo on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @12:01PM (#24568553)
That terminology is still used in the United States for certain classes of corporations, but they're pretty rare these days.

The legal world has "managing partner" as the equivalent for LLPs.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by culturestate on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @12:11PM (#24568632)
There are still plenty of MDs in the world, but these days it's mostly used in finance and consulting to represent the first layer of leadership below the c-suite.

It can vary, though; e.g. Kevin Sneader is the de facto CEO of McKinsey, but his official title is Global Managing Partner and his predecessor used Managing Director.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by arethuza on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @07:41AM (#24565802)
Definitely the normal thing in the UK for companies of all sizes for the CEO to be an executive director and therefore to sit on the board of directors.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by evancox100 on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @07:40AM (#24565788)
Extremely common, not frowned upon at all here
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by importantbrian on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @12:25PM (#24568759)
It's so common here that I never even considered the possibility of having a CEO who wasn't also a member of the board. It's pretty common for them to also be chairman of the board. Especially for founder CEOs.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jariel on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @01:07PM (#24569299)
If the CEO is a majority or major shareholder, they will be on the board, point blank.

If they are not, the roles should be separate.

Their patron should rectify this, but it's possible they don't care.

The 'plan' may be to kill Firefox.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @05:10AM (#24564762)
stay/stray.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by culturestate on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @05:24AM (#24564841)
Cheers. MacBook keyboard strikes again.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by mschuster91 on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @09:23AM (#24566729)
A bit offtopic, but I really really recommend the 16-inch MBP. That's what I call a keyboard, not the 15-inch crap.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by culturestate on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @10:50AM (#24567755)
This one went nearly 3 years before it had a problem, but as soon as one key started acting up the rest of the row quickly followed. I'll trade up for the latest model (with the touch bar, which I actually like, and physical escape key) the next time I can afford to be unproductive for a couple days.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by AMC11 on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @12:09PM (#24568614)
What year/model is it? You might be eligible for the Keyboard Service Program (https://support.apple.com/en-ca/keyboard-service-program-for...).
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by culturestate on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @12:22PM (#24568736)
I am eligible (and it's still under AppleCare) but I want to swap anyway for the updated touch bar layout.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by ilrwbwrkhv on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @09:42AM (#24566946)
What about the new Macbook pro 13 inch?
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by chipotle_coyote on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @11:36AM (#24568278)
They're all identical keyboards -- AFAIK, literally -- so if you like it on one (or don't like it on one!), it'll apply to the rest. I have a 2020 MacBook Air and think it's one of the best laptop keyboards I've used in a long time. (And it makes me really hate going back to the butterfly keyboard on my work laptop, even though I found it okay to type on previously. I actually never had any dead keys on it, or on a previous work laptop with butterfly keys, or on a personal MBP 13" that the Air replaced.)
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by mschuster91 on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @09:54AM (#24567059)
Don't have experiences with it, that's too small for me, sorry.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by patrec on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @05:45AM (#24565002)
Well, concerning the sucking dry: maybe I'm overly cynical but I wonder if being on the mozilla board is not a nice sinecure (so high effective hourly wage, even if the yearly compensation is not egregious) with a massive CV boost: none of the people I can see on the board of either the corp or the foundation, with the exception of Brian Behlendorf (and I had to look him up) seem to have much name recognition and being on the board of Mozilla might well be the most high profile thing they'll ever do.

Given that, as you seem to agree, Mozilla is probably doomed now no matter what, why would they deprive themselves of these benefits (and possible future similar gigs!) sooner rather than later? It seems extremely unlikely to me the mismanagement is rising to the level of personal liability.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @05:48AM (#24565026)
> It seems extremely unlikely to me the mismanagement is rising to the level of personal liability.

Agreed. But the CEOs statement here is very peculiar and might actually rise to that level, the board not taking action in turn might just make them culpable.

It is a very dumb statement, especially for a lawyer, to make.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by patrec on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @06:52AM (#24565410)
You mean the "competitive roles elsewhere were paying about 5 times as much. That's too big a discount to ask people and their families to commit to"? It's pretty funny, especially the word "competitive"? I assume the bit you could see landing her in hot water are the three words "and their families"?
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @06:59AM (#24565454)
Yes, because if and when Mozilla goes belly up and the CEO has been found to enrich herself with this as her motivation for continuing to raid the till when it was clear that Mozilla was in trouble then you don't want to have stuff like that on the record.

The Martha Stewart case revolved around a similar minor (for her) issue, $45K loss avoided but it landed her in jail. Rich people make stupid mistakes too, whether this is one of those remains to be seen (I think it will pass) even so, it isn't smart when your company is on a multi-year downslide.

It's not good optics.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by moron4hire on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:40AM (#24566293)
The part that Stewart did time for was the lying to federal investigators.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:43AM (#24566309)
Yes, if not for that she would have likely walked. Even so, it further illustrates that minor tricks can have a big effect in the right context. I'm pretty sure that Stewart didn't think about the possible consequences when she did that. Must be weird to sit that high and fall so low.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by indymike on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @10:16AM (#24567327)
One of the best and hardest things to do for anything with a board of directors is to establish that EVERY BOARD MEETING starts with a vote on one simple question: "Shall the CEO/Executive Director be retained?" Every company, not for profit or even tiny club that makes this the big question performs it's mission well. Those that don't, well, you get a lot more politics.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @11:31AM (#24568222)
I love that idea, it formalizes the board taking responsibility for the continued performance of the CEO, and it may also warn a CEO that the board that hired them is about to flip before it is too late.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by indymike on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @11:40AM (#24568318)
Accountability is underrated, and I've been in more than one meeting where there was a surprise no vote from a couple of board members. The result was that problems got fixed quickly.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by warbaker on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @01:09PM (#24569323)
Imagine if, every quarter, a committee voted on whether you keep your job.

Does this make you more or less willing to take risks? More or less focused? Does this decrease or increase the amount of attention you give to "optics" and politics?

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by indymike on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @04:33PM (#24571652)
This doesn't bother me in the least. A CEO's boss is the board of directors, period. Every board meeting is a review on the performance of the organization, and therefore the CEO. Most employees do not roll up to a committee, and their review is usually with a supervisor. The board meeting is no different.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by mantap on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @02:41PM (#24570414)
Perhaps if you can't deal with that small pressure you shouldn't be a CEO. When things get bad it's going to be a lot more pressure than that.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by KingOfCoders on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @03:53AM (#24564231)
It's not just the leadership at Firefox. FF has been hijacked by a bunch of people who have no interest in the browser and sucked it dry while it went down. Sad for the people at Mozilla who cared about the browser and wrote the code.

As an FF user I hope Mozilla does a turn around, gets back its engineering culture and focuses on delivering the best - and most secure and private - browser in the market.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by andrewgioia on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:12AM (#24566040)
If you have a link or other details I’m interested in who you’re referring to that hijacked/influenced development. I’ve never heard that and am really curious. I too really hope they can turn it around but sadly have been less and less hopeful.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by dayjobpork on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:32AM (#24566213)
Possibly taking one of the best parts of Firefox, the addons, and replacing it with a system that doesn't bother to support many of the most popular addons.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by IainIreland on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @11:45AM (#24568388)
An opposing point of view, from somebody at Mozilla who cared about the browser and wrote the code: https://yoric.github.io/post/why-did-mozilla-remove-xul-addo...
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by FeepingCreature on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:52AM (#24566389)
The sad part is -- I genuinely believe they were trying to do the right thing with that.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by kevin_thibedeau on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @10:08AM (#24567231)
Slavishly copying Google's plans to nerf the addon interface isn't "the right thing". Thankfully, Google has gone too far by crippling ad blockers and Firefox is unlikely to fall on that sword.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by Imaiomus on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:51AM (#24566369)
To me its the nokia-ms move
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by ksec on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:46AM (#24566333)
While I definitely agree with changing leadership. I dont think she can be described as parasitic leadership.

She is incompetent, but I dont think she has the intention to drive Mozilla to the ground. After all she co-founded the Mozilla Project, and was the Chairwoman for a long time, long before she was named the CEO.

Why did they not find someone else to be CEO is beyond me though.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by zobzu on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @12:56PM (#24569155)
I suspect she's been in there for a very long time, is tired, and just want to cash out. She sees her friends working for the likes of Google who made 50+ millions during certain years and see her small 2.5M as nothing.

She's a lawyer. She got the Mozilla deal out of Netscape and AOL. That's the highlight of her career and what she's good at too - that and public speaking. For what it's worth she even recognized this in the past and stepped down as CEO before - but stayed as Chairwoman of course and kept getting the salary.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by patrec on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @02:59PM (#24570608)
I really don't really see how her actions can be interpreted in any other light. If she were just incompetent, she would not so blatantly enrich herself all the while laying off hundreds of staff, many undoubtedly more deserving. Did you read their revolting PR statement?
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by behnamoh on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @09:47AM (#24566992)
Remember Stephen Elop, former CEO of Nokia? He did an awesome job in reducing Nokia's marketshare (and hence, its market capital) to make the company ready to be acquired by his mother company, Microsoft, at a very low price (cheaper than just one app—WhatsApp which was sold to Facebook).

Or remember Yahoo! CEO Marissa Mayer? She also did a great job at making the company ready to be sold out to Verizon at low price.

These CEOs know what they're doing. They take care of their personal interests and steal companies for the tech giants.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by ksec on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @10:15AM (#24567318)
Oh no.

While I am absolutely pissed ( to say the least ) that Nokia was sold to Microsoft and Yahoo couldn't turn its ship around. I dont think both CEO were doing in their own interest or another companies interest.

Nokia refused to use Android. ( Which was what really killed Nokia ) That was only two possible outcome, either go full force with Symbian or partner with Microsoft. I mean there are so many wrong with Nokia even before Elop joined nothing much could have been done. It turns out the penalty for completely dismissing iPhone and Smartphone was death for their phone division. ( Currently the Nokia Smartphone are manufactured by a JV formed by former Nokia employees and Foxconn, with the name licensed from Nokia )

Elop did however completely neglect the importance of Carrier / Network Infrastructure segment, although arguably Ericsson wasn't competing much and Huawei didn't show up on their radar. ( Yet )

Marissa was trying very hard to recreate Google within Yahoo. She was absolutely executing it. But it is one of those example where I put the argument against execution eats strategy for breakfast.

It is not one OR the other. You need both. The equation times both together. When you have a strategy which trends towards zero or even negative, it doesn't matter how well you execute it.

In the end she failed. The strategy was wrong from the start. I actually thought the other CEO candidate's vision of turning Yahoo in to an Online Media Companies suits Yahoo better. But Marissa got the job, and the rest is history.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by chipotle_coyote on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @11:52AM (#24568463)
As someone who was at Nokia when Elop became CEO and had some (very limited) view into the goings on, as the kids say: "yes, this, +1".

Circa 2010, Symbian was clearly uncompetitive and MeeGo was far behind schedule. There was a fairly ambitious plan to build a new UI framework in Qt that ran on both Symbian and MeeGo -- the Nokia N9 used this with Harmattan, which internally I don't think we ever referred to as MeeGo, IIRC! -- but I'm pretty sure when Elop arrived he took stock of things and thought, "My God, this MeeGo thing is Nokia's version of Apple's Copland project," and it's really hard to say he was wrong.

Looking back, it's really easy to say that he was wrong not to choose Android, but it was seriously considered. The problem was that Nokia insisted on two mutually exclusive conditions: they wanted to use a lot of Nokia-based services so the new devices still "felt Nokia," and they wanted to fully partner with Google and market the devices as Android. And Google wouldn't do it. If you want to call your device "Android (R)" then you use Google services; if you want to use your own, you have to do what Amazon did with the Fire devices. Google wouldn't make an exception for Nokia, but Microsoft -- who by that point had, at least internally, realized Windows Phone was seriously floundering -- would. And so they went with Microsoft.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by ufmace on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @12:13PM (#24568656)
Absolutely this. I was a Nokia/Symbian fan back when it actually was the industry best. The real problem was that iPhone and Android came around and started executing like 100x faster than Symbian ever did. Nokia was too used to working with software on a Symbian timeline, and it took them too long to see that their only options were to learn to execute on Symbian improvements at that speed (probably not practical), give up Symbian and adopt Android (becoming essentially a vassal of Google), or get buried.

They dawdled and ignored the problem for too long, and were left with selling to Microsoft and adopting their mobile OS as the only semi-plausible way to maintain a strong market position. Both Nokia and Microsoft's efforts ended up being too little, too late.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by Nursie on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @02:28PM (#24570269)
Nokia was pathological before Elop arrived, but it was still huge, and a huge name. There was more than enough time and money to turn it around. Instead he released his "burning platforms" memo that made everything worse.

From the outset it looked (from the outside) exactly like his goal was as described - torpedo the company and get it bought by Microsoft, returning to the mothership in the process.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by Spooky23 on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @12:57PM (#24569162)
It's easy to say this stuff looking in the rearview mirror. Nokia and BlackBerry saw their platforms as their moat that enabled the company. It wasn't obvious that Apple and Google would eat up the market.

Yahoo was similar in a way -- they built a whole array of services around identity way before Google did. Ultimately it didn't work out well for the company.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by albertzeyer on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @05:40AM (#24564960)
Firefox and co are open source projects. Couldn't you just create a new company, "Next-Mozilla" or so, and fork off the projects, install a new CEO, take over the developers? You would have to use a new branding, i.e. they cannot reuse the trademark, and they have to make sure that enough people (developers and users) will switch over. But with such bad press, this might not be too hard, if there is one focused attempt for this. Financing is another issue initially, but at some point they would get a similar Google deal. And otherwise, financing like Wikimedia or Internet Archive (mostly donations, right?).
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @05:41AM (#24564969)
How will you pay for this? Without critical mass you are not going anywhere. FireFox had critical mass, and lost. You won't be able to recover that position without some extremely deep pockets even if you start off from what is there today.

I am not convinced that even if Mozilla/FF got a competent CEO tomorrow and started executing 'just so' that they would be able to recover from their slide, a newcomer would have it harder.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by richardwhiuk on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:18AM (#24566090)
This is basically how Mozilla began, as Netscape died, right?
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by bwat49 on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:22AM (#24566119)
The browser market is so much different now though.

Firefox was originally competing against the pile of steaming garbage that was IE6.

Now they are competing against Chrome which is actually a good browser, and Chrome also has the advantage of having google behind it which can leverage their search/ad monopoly to push Chrome.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:26AM (#24566158)
> which can leverage their search/ad monopoly to push Chrome.

And which they have shamelessly done.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by runarberg on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @12:12PM (#24568642)
Wasn’t IE6 a great browser? The best even?

The way I’ve heard the story is that by the time of firefox, IE6 was still a really good browser, it had just stayed stagnant for a little too long, and bundled got with Microsoft’s monopolistic behavior.

I think there are more parallels between late IE6 and present day Chrome then you give credit for.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by bwat49 on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:23PM (#24584364)
maybe my memory is fuzzy, but I don't have a single fond memory of IE6. I remember it being a revelation how much better firefox was when I first switched back in the day.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by pera on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @12:17PM (#24568693)
Nobody but techies thought back then that IE6 was a "pile of steaming garbage". We are mostly in the same situation today in this regard.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by bwat49 on Thursday September 24, 2020 @06:22PM (#24584350)
Chrome is far better than IE6 ever was. Not even close to the same situation IMO.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:25AM (#24566157)
Pretty much. But they had not ridden Netscape that far down to the bottom just yet. Don't forget that the roots of Mozilla were seeded in 1998, the Mozilla foundation came 6 years later. Netscape was still hugely popular and FireFox took that popularity and ran with it.

To do this today, with a much more complex product would be no mean feat, back then a browser was a much simpler piece of software than it is today.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by WoodenChair on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @09:59AM (#24567113)
> Netscape was still hugely popular and FireFox took that popularity and ran with it.

Netscape was not “still hugely popular” when Firefox was created. IE market share was upwards of 90%.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by Tom4hawk on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @06:20AM (#24565229)
Steve Jobs was able to do that with Apple. There is no reason to believe that is not possible with Mozilla. Especially taking into consideration that Mozilla doesn't have to be profitable as a company. Being sustainable would be enough.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by srtjstjsj on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:46AM (#24566339)
All it takes is what, a $400M investment, but this time as a charitable gift instead of a profit-seeking venture?

Shuttleworth did that with Ubuntu and it's barely surviving.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @06:28AM (#24565274)
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by petra on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @02:00PM (#24569959)
Steve Jobs didn't do it alone, there was huge trend transforming all of the music industry, with piarted MP3's over P2P networks, and he rode it, and did so exceptionally well.

What trend should Firefox ride ? And how will it keep that project a secret for long enough, Given that it's all open-sourced ?

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by TedDoesntTalk on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @09:59AM (#24567115)
Except that Mitchell Baker != Steve Jobs ... even remotely
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by _emacsomancer_ on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @10:54AM (#24567823)
That's true - and we should be thankful for small mercies.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by trasz on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @05:56AM (#24565080)
They could try to convince Google to sponsor them instead.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @06:02AM (#24565108)
Chicken, egg.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by staticassertion on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @01:06PM (#24569276)
Google has done an incredible job of monetizing Chrome, I think it's a mistake to think that Firefox is somehow incapable of this.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by madmax96 on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @01:52PM (#24569868)
How has Google monetized Chrome?
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by staticassertion on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @03:20PM (#24570838)
Oh tons of ways. The fact that the default search engine is Google is the obvious one, but GSuite is huge for Google - they're competing directly with Dropbox, O365, etc. and GSuite heavily integrates with Chrome.

ChromeOS of course puts them in the OS market, and it's doing very well for a niche operating system - my entire company runs on ChromeOS in fact.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by username90 on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @02:26PM (#24570243)
It is monetized the same way as Firefox, the address bar by default goes to Google search which is really well monetized.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by zobzu on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @12:56PM (#24569159)
It's what Brave is, but it didn't use Firefox source code.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by seqizz on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:20AM (#24566109)
There is a possibility, doesn't matter how low, I like to think about: Group of people leaving Mozilla, forking the Firefox and creating another non-profit.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by Imaiomus on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:51AM (#24566382)
I hope for the blender foundation doing a browser
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by raxxorrax on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @09:15AM (#24566639)
Considering the amazing work they did recently, that sounds pretty awesome.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by pyb on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @05:44AM (#24564997)
Are there any examples of a company recovering from what you describe ? I don't know of any.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @05:48AM (#24565032)
Apple. Currently the most valuable company of all time.

And there are interesting parallels, Apple too was kept alive by their competitor as a fig leaf in light of anti-trust troubles.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by kinleyd on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @06:19AM (#24565225)
Apple was the ultimate outlier in that respect. It would be great if someone could pull this off for Mozilla. The odds are slim, but one can hope.

Edit: Cal Peterson's article clearly shows how we got here. Such a shame.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @06:37AM (#24565325)
If played smart Mozilla could be another. I have some ideas about how this could be achieved but Mozilla in its present day configuration would never be able to make any of them work so I'm curious to see if and how they will get out of their current predicament.

So far what I am seeing and hearing does not make me very hopeful.

FF will be my daily driver until they stop updating it, where FF does not work I very reluctantly use Chrome. I suspect that if and when FF dies Chrome will no longer be available for Linux because the main reason for offering it (as an alternative to FF) will be gone.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by Stratoscope on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @09:07AM (#24566543)
> I suspect that if and when FF dies Chrome will no longer be available for Linux because the main reason for offering it (as an alternative to FF) will be gone.

There is a bigger reason. Literally every software engineer at Google/Alphabet uses Linux, other than a very few exceptions (likely only a fraction of a percent).

Even if your laptop is a Mac or Windows machine, your source code access is exclusively on your Linux box in the office.

Google is a Linux shop. Regardless of their reputation for dropping products, Chrome on Linux isn't going away any time soon, for the simple reason that they need it internally.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @09:43AM (#24566949)
Excellent news. For now though, I sincerely hope that FF will somehow manage to stay alive, and that Mozilla will put all of their effort behind it.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by patrec on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @07:13AM (#24565539)
What makes you think Google will drop linux support? As far as I can tell it's in their interest to keep a (2nd class) linux version around: linux is no competitive threat to anything they do, a large fraction of their staff use linux machines, and leaving linux without any viable browser (killing it dead as a desktop and development platform) would concentrate a lot of money, smarts and political power into seeking alternatives that could pose a serious threat to Google.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @07:24AM (#24565649)
Precedent. Companies tend to spend effort to keep others at bay but as soon as they are no longer a threat they move their effort elsewhere. As long as FF has a viable territory Chrome will be there to compete with it.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by qzw on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @07:51AM (#24565870)
Since ChromeOS itself is just a stripped down flavor of Linux, they can hardly just drop Linux support. Unless they also give up on ChromeOS, which is unlikely but not impossible for Google.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:30AM (#24566200)
It would be trivial to stop supporting the linux version publicly while still allowing the ChromeOS one, it's not going to compile for regular linux if Google does not continue to put effort into that.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by srtjstjsj on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:48AM (#24566349)
It's a one person effort to adjust a few flags to port ChromeOS app to Linux.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:59AM (#24566474)
That's reassuring to know. I don't think I would want to give up linux as my daily driver OS and if there were no current browser for it that would be the end.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by fabrice_d on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @11:40AM (#24568323)
ChromeOS graphics stack is not based on Wayland or X11, so if Google decided to ditch Linux and only support ChromeOS, you would have to maintain the Linux graphics port. That may or may not be a one person effort.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by tyingq on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:53AM (#24566407)
I thought that was one of the drivers for Fuschia.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by readams on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:50AM (#24566362)
Google uses Chrome on Linux internally. Most Google employees use it on their main computers. There's also ChromeOS.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by nobody9999 on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @01:51PM (#24569862)
>FF will be my daily driver until they stop updating it, where FF does not work I very reluctantly use Chrome. I suspect that if and when FF dies Chrome will no longer be available for Linux because the main reason for offering it (as an alternative to FF) will be gone.

I also use FF as my daily driver. However, should FF become unsupported, I'll go with Palemoon[0] rather than Chrome.

In fact, there really isn't anything that could get me to use Chrome. I find its interfaces to be insulting to my intelligence and not at all friendly enough to the idea that I should never see ads or be tracked through my browser.

[0] https://www.palemoon.org/

Edit: Added link to Palemoon.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @03:11PM (#24570744)
Bookmarked.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by hoseja on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @06:55AM (#24565430)
There is also a possibility they will start updating it with adware, IMO they've come close already.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @07:00AM (#24565460)
Auto update strikes again. I'll react to that when it happens. One of the main reasons I use firefox is because I hate advertising, if there is one thing that would make me jump ship that would probably be it.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by tobr on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @07:32AM (#24565718)
> I have some ideas about how this could be achieved

Could you expand on this?

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @07:38AM (#24565772)
I did so in an earlier thread about Mozilla.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24121689

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by qppo on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @12:00PM (#24568534)
I don't think your ideas there result in more market share or a sustainable business model to support Firefox. Because fundamentally you're trying to shove a new value (privacy) down the throats of consumers who don't share it, they want functionality first.

I think the goal should be to make Firefox the sane default firstly for business and secondly for consumers. Business users care about privacy and security, yet Chrome and IE are the standard platforms for business webapps.

If you want an example of how misaligned those values are from reality, I need to use Chrome to talk to my doctor. Safari and Firefox aren't supported. That's entirely because Firefox doesn't do enough to make it the default platform for developers and by focusing on the wrong users.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by tobr on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:04AM (#24565974)
Those are good points, and it’s frustrating that they don’t seem to be in Mozilla’s focus, but do you really believe this could lead to an Apple-style comeback?
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:32AM (#24566219)
Well, I'd certainly hope so or I see myself as a Chrome user in a few years time and that's not the best possible future. I already have to for browser/midi stuff.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by kinleyd on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @07:50AM (#24565856)
Those ideas look solid. It will require the board to make some critical decisions and there has to be a person for the moment. Do we have the analog to Steve Jobs in this situation - Brendan Eich?
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:31AM (#24566209)
JWZ? That would be a fun turn-around, I think the bar/restaurant business is maybe not such a great spot to be in and it would be a nice return for him. For sure I'd trust him to do the right thing from a tech perspective.
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by srtjstjsj on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:50AM (#24566363)
JWZ quit tech years ago because he hates other programmers. He's not going back to Mozilla
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by ksec on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @08:51AM (#24566377)
>Apple was the ultimate outlier in that respect.

Yes and in Apple's case, no one could have pulled it off other than Steve Jobs.

So basically the answer to the original question is none, zero.

Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by syshum on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @09:24AM (#24566735)
Well if she were to post any kind of Right Leaning political views they would get rid of her pretty quick.... They have a history of that
Re:Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay goin... by dang on Wednesday September 23, 2020 @02:48PM (#24570494)
Please don't take HN threads into ideological flamewar. We've had to ask you this multiple times. This kind of provocation leads to discussion that is equal parts nasty and brain dead.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html