News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by tootie on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:18AM (#24517070)
Both Muller report as well as the House and Senate investigations all concluded that Russia was the source. Assange's denials are about as credible as Roger Stone's denials.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by imphatic on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:23AM (#24517131)
This is what blows my mind. For a group of people who supposedly rely on institutional knowledge about topics like science and tech, suddenly on this topic its one guys claim against literally dozens of institutions counter claims.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by aero-glide on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:44AM (#24517405)
One could argue these institutions aren't "trustworthy". Myself, I really don't know where the truth lies. For example, WMDs in Iraq were also by institutions. They may have their own agenda (weather justified or not).
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by js2 on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:09AM (#24517730)
Bush was unwilling to trust the U.N. inspectors. The CIA had also thought that there were no weapons. Bush took this as evidence that Saddam was hiding weapons. Literally, on 9/12, Paul Wolfowitz asked for intelligence that Saddam had WMD and there wasn't any. With so much pressure from the top to find evidence for WMD, the CIA started to cave.

(Saddam had incentive to pretend he had WMD. He certainly didn't want Iran to know he didn't. He obviously didn't want inspectors inside his government buildings. But Bush and his team used Saddam's behavior as evidence he was hiding WMD, rather than the fact that he was hiding the lack of WMD.)

Once the CIA realized that war was inevitable, it went into cover-your-ass-mode and said Saddam might have chemical weapons so that US soldiers wouldn't go into Iraq with insufficient protection in-case there were chemical weapons after all.

Bush was unwilling to listen to counter-naratives. If Condi Rice or, more likely, Colin Powell had been willing to say "I don't think war is such a good idea" maybe it wouldn't have happened. But Bush surrounded himself with yes men. If Powell hadn't supported the war, likely he and his entire staff would have had to resign. If that had happened, Bush would have lost Tony Blair's support and with that, any international support. Bush probably would have at least thought twice about going to Iraq alone.

So in this case, it wasn't so much that the institutions weren't trustworthy, it's that they fell in line with pressure that started from Bush. It doesn't do any good to have experts at your disposal if you're not going to listen to any of them.

Source: Robert Draper's exhaustively researched book on how Iraq happened:

https://www.amazon.com/Start-War-Bush-Administration-America...

Interview with the author:

https://www.vox.com/2020/9/2/21417224/why-did-america-invade...

(Also, the U.S. media didn't do its job. The cynical side of me says there's money to be made in covering war. But probably, it was just incompetence. I still haven't forgiven the NYT though.)

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by voxic11 on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:32AM (#24518062)
> So in this case, it wasn't so much that the institutions weren't trustworthy, it's that they fell in line with pressure that started from Bush.

How does falling into line with pressure that started from Bush make them trustworthy? That is exactly the kind of failure which makes them untrustworthy.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by js2 on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:54PM (#24519100)
It depends on which institutions and what you trust them to do. Talking about the intelligence institutions, the CIA and the UN weapons inspectors, those institutions provided correct information that Bush chose to ignore.

So were the intelligence institutions trustworthy to provide good information? Yes.

Bush did an end-run around them.

Were they able to stop the U.S. from going to war? No. But that was Congress’s (and maybe the US media’s) job and certainly _those_ institutions failed.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by charwalker on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:26PM (#24518762)
It's real hard to argue that the bulk of US Intelligence services got this wrong especially as more time passes. For example, compare it to the Iraq WMD claims that were critical in swaying opinion (or validating a vote) but were shown to be misleading at best as reports surfaced. We have had a ton of whistleblowers and reports within the current administration that suggest that the intelligence services are solid, especially at the start of the current presidential term, wile it is the leadership itself with a long list of lies and false claims meant to sow discord and division. The FBI has been calling out white nationalism for decades but only recently are we seeing militias march into state capitols or take over government buildings by force, or police unions defend cops with words like "Get F*," on their rifle.

I'm sticking with the 007 analysis that UK intel is golden and the US contact is about as cowboy as a spy can get but won't stand injustice.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by hackinthebochs on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:18AM (#24517882)
Assange's denials about Russia's involvement aren't credible on its face. The question is whether Russia hacked the DNC emails that Assange published. Assange fundamentally has no knowledge of the origin of the emails as the final stop in potentially multi-person hand off. The only way he could know Russia didn't hack the emails was if he was standing over the shoulder of the person who did. It is like a Tor exit node claiming to know the origin of a communication. It fundamentally is unable to determine that information without a side channel, which in this case would indicate collusion with the hackers.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by dencodev on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:52PM (#24519077)
You're missing the other obvious answer: he got the emails from someone directly at the DNC who wouldn't need a hacker. Assange has mentioned and discuss Seth Rich multiple times with the implication that he's somehow tied to work at Wikileaks. Even if it wasn't Seth, there are a lot of people who could have given him those emails other than hackers.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by hackinthebochs on Friday September 18, 2020 @01:29PM (#24519528)
The thing is, we know the DNC was hacked. We know that Podesta was a victim of spear phishing. The timing of the attack also lines up with the release of emails. While the possibility is non-zero that an insider gave Assange the emails, it requires far too many unexplained coincidences to be believable.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by jessaustin on Friday September 18, 2020 @01:50PM (#24519773)
Can we really imagine that only Russian spies could have sent this email? [0] There is nothing personal in it other than his name, "John". I'm not sure this even deserves the adjective "spear"... Podesta's emails are evidence of DNC rigging the primary against Bernie, but they are not evidence of Russian hacking.

[0] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-phishing-email-that-hacked-...

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by hackinthebochs on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:07PM (#24519983)
You seem to be confused about what this thread was discussing. The question was whether Assange received the emails from an insider or a third party. Who actually did the phising is a separate concern.

That said, considering the context of the election, Trumps close ties with Russia and Russian agents, and the broad and multifaceted attempts at hacking the election attributed to Russia (disinformation farms, hacking state election networks), it is very likely that Russia was also behind the DNC hack. These weak attempts at casting doubt on Russia's involvement are transparent.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by jessaustin on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:28PM (#24520216)
You, directly above: We know that Podesta was a victim of spear phishing.

You, directly above that: Assange's denials about Russia's involvement aren't credible on its face.

Yeah, I'm confused. This is all beside the point. It is lawful to publish true information about candidates that is of interest to the public.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by hackinthebochs on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:29PM (#24520933)
It turns out you need context to understand the meaning of words. If you keep reading, you will see the rest of that context. I wasn't saying "it is obviously false that Russia didn't hack the DNC", I was saying that "Assange cannot claim to know Russia didn't hack the DNC [unless he was involved directly]". See the difference?
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by Balgair on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:29PM (#24520936)
As of 19:23 UTC, the poster's profile's 'About' section only lists: " "obvious troll" ".
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by jessaustin on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:48PM (#24521153)
19:23?!? Oh shit, dude, you caught me! I had so meant to change that sometime in the last three years! After all, HN people can't be expected to understand a joke in any context!
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by Tanath on Saturday September 19, 2020 @10:35PM (#24531576)
> it is very likely that Russia was also behind the DNC hack.

Actually it's an established fact. They were being watched live on their computers and security cameras as they were doing the hacking.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/01/dutch...

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by jessaustin on Sunday September 20, 2020 @04:09PM (#24536981)
The data collected by AIVD began to pay off in November of 2014, when the agency alerted US intelligence officials that the Cozy Bear group had obtained login credentials and email from US State Department employees. enabling the National Security Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigations, and the State Department to shut down the attack within 24 hours.

Is there some connection between State Dept in 2014 and DNC in 2016?

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by hackinthebochs on Sunday September 20, 2020 @02:58PM (#24536382)
I remembered that from years ago, but couldn't remember where I saw it. Thanks.

Imaging burning a source so valuable for the sake of the U.S., only to have us elect Trump anyways and four years later pretend like its still an open question whether Russia was involved.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by b1c837696ba28b on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:24AM (#24517950)
Please re-read the historical record, key-words: "Stove pipe." The institutional read (NEI) was no WMD. International inspectors said no WMD. Cheney wanted another answer and got what he wanted by subverting the institutions.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by megous on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:55AM (#24517539)
I just skimmed a mueller report. All instances where mentions of the hacking group names/numbers were, contained just assertions of what the group did. There was no to very little mention of how this information was determined in the surrounding text.

Yes, I guess it's a report. But it contains just assertions, so it's only meaningful if you trust the institution making it. I've read reports that actually contained the process the core conclusion were arrived at, like various opensource investigations from Bellingcat, etc. And these were indeed more convincing.

Not sure why hacker should just go by blind trust to institutions, lol.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by hluska on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:36AM (#24518112)
You may want to give the report a full, focused read. While the redactions are annoying, Mueller makes one heck of a case over the full 400+ pages. His writing style is highly measured but frankly, it sounds like it had to be or it never would have made it into the public view. It’s interesting reading how slowly Mueller builds his points!
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by mugwort13 on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:36PM (#24518876)
Vague on purpose. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING claiming the DNC email (and more importantly the PODESTA emails) were "hacked" can be summed up in three words.

"According to Crowdstrike..."

That's it. No one else did any investigation, just Crowdstrike. The same underhanded, dishonest company that LulzSec and Anonymous felt the needs to expose time and time again for their fraudulent ways. People who have no problem lying or framing people.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by HumblyTossed on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:33AM (#24517255)
For anything non-tech related, tech people are just like everyone else. Our supposed higher IQ's don't mean much when forming opinions.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by ardy42 on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:48AM (#24517460)
> For anything non-tech related, tech people are just like everyone else. Our supposed higher IQ's don't mean much when forming opinions.

Honestly, I think "our supposed higher IQ's" (or more precisely: a self-image as being much smarter than average) can actually be a handicap when dealing with areas outside of one's specialty. It can very easily lead to overconfidence.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by Balgair on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:51AM (#24518307)
There is a phenomenon with Physicists in their emeritus years.

They go into other fields, declare that the field is just so easy, try to model things as 1m radius spheres of water, see that the four interstitial cell layers of the bovine second stomach are hyper-complex and noisy when saline levels change 2% (or things to that effect), declare that the field still needs to change, write a paper up that is simplistic and help no one in the field, get a bit of press coverage, assuage their damaged egos, and then try out landscape painting or Ethiopian cooking.

This phenomenon of overconfident and un-humble emeritus Physicists is not restricted to just them, I'm afraid, but all people.

Humility is a virtue.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by CyberRabbi on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:40AM (#24517344)
I think you’re mistaken: This is hacker news, not institution-trained software engineer news.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by umanwizard on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:42AM (#24517377)
What makes you think HN users “rely on institutional knowledge” more than anyone else? My experience is exactly the opposite.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by ardy42 on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:12PM (#24520034)
> What makes you think HN users “rely on institutional knowledge” more than anyone else? My experience is exactly the opposite.

I'm guessing it's a generalization from a relatively common great respect for academic science as an institution. However, even that's far from universal, which the pandemic has shown.

I do agree with you. I think there's at least as much overconfident mistrust of institutions than respect for them there.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by sciencep00 on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:50AM (#24517478)
Doesn’t really matter which facts are stored in a cortex.

Same old biological biases embedded within.

For example, how this forum often lauds certain non-gods and ignores the math that luck of time and place, not inherent abilities, are what bring people wealth.

Ignoring all the alternatives and historical evidence of high taxation’s value to a society, this forum likes to cling to celebrity worship of economists and tech elites who can only be elite given a tilted economic reward system tilted by biological indoctrination that’s proven in experiment....

Or how in a democracy we seem to end up in a pretty tilted political power structure.

But here they are anyway ignoring science because of biological contentment.

Western culture is as irredeemable as any other. Logistical capabilities are what matters, not ideology. Humans can’t escape their own ego though.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by tootie on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:29AM (#24518019)
I've noticed a rapidly amplifying trend for right-wing opinions and even conspiracies to get a load of comments on this site. It's weird because in the past political conversations have been either avoided or limited to very factual discussions. I can't imagine any troll farms consider HN to be a high-value target, so I can only assume they are sincere.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by lawrenceyan on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:36PM (#24518869)
HN should probably be considered mainstream at this point. It's better than Reddit of course by nature of the primary demographic it caters to, but it's definitely not underground anymore.

The more popular a site is, the more enticing it becomes to those who are interested in marketing/manipulation/etc. To give credit where it's due, I think HN is far more resilient to these kinds of attacks than most other sites. But it's still important to keep in mind that these malicious actors do exist, and are attempting to influence your opinions.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by krapp on Friday September 18, 2020 @01:20PM (#24519404)
I think you're mistaken in implying that the primary demographic of this site and the "bad actors" are separate populations.

Tech culture is changing. The generation that was primarily brought up around CS and engineering in academia and influenced by the counterculture of the 70s, Free Software and anarchism is being replaced by a tech culture raised by Silicon Valley techo-libertarianism, Reddit and 4chan. The Unabomber manifesto is far more influential on the politics of modern tech culture than the Hacker Manifesto. We've gone from hackers building the web to liberate the world from the gatekeepers of information and communication to hackers wanting to burn the web down because it's too mainstream.

That's a cultural schism that Hacker News hasn't been able to deal with.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by logicchains on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:43AM (#24518208)
>I've noticed a rapidly amplifying trend for right-wing opinions

It's correlated with the recent rise in Trump's polling. Left wingers who oppose lockdowns, cancel culture and the riots are being pushed towards the right.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by tootie on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:23PM (#24518734)
Case in point right here. Aside from your observation being objectively untrue, that kind of talk (from any political spectrum) used to be non-existent here.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by disgruntledphd2 on Friday September 18, 2020 @12:33PM (#24518843)
It's been happening since at least 2016. I remember that everything seemed to go mental amongst the US internet as of that year. Can't imagine why ;)
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by lazyjones on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:37AM (#24517302)
Truth is not the majority opinion.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by christkv on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:43AM (#24517386)
Same institutions who said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by aaaxyz on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:12AM (#24517778)
Not quite. Outside the US intelligence community, very few institutions were convinced that Iraq had WMDs.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by paradox242 on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:17PM (#24520814)
Those inside the intelligence community knew we had no evidence for WMD and that the evidence being put forward as "maybe" was based on bad information from bad sources. Remember when Scoot Libby went to jail for outing Valerie Plame because the administration didn't like the critical op-ed her husband wrote about the whole yellow-cake uranium thing? Or were you like 4 years old back then?
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by dralley on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:31AM (#24517238)
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by sschueller on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:33AM (#24517265)
Like the weapons on mass destruction in Iraq...

I don't believe anything the state says and so far every leak Asange has provided has been proven to be true. At this time he has more credibility than the government.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by tootie on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:43AM (#24518207)
The WMD story was clearly emanating from self-interested parties and was never supported by intelligence officials. The MSM uncovered plenty of evidence that their stories were untrue.

And the question here isn't if his leaks were true, it's if they were coordinated with Russia to disseminate information stolen in an attack targeted to influence one side of America's election. It has been proven in court that Assange was working the Trump campaign via Roger Stone. There is an abundance of evidence the hacker alias who procured the emails was a front for GRU. There is an abundance of evidence that GRU was actively working to support Donald Trump. Trump openly supported their help. The email leak came out immediately after the Access Hollywood tape revealed Trump's penchant for sexual assault.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by coldtea on Friday September 18, 2020 @05:15PM (#24521938)
As if the establishment and/or deep-state reports are credible?

What happened to the time that the people actually were wise enough to see those with suspicion?

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by hamsterOnWheel on Friday September 18, 2020 @09:01PM (#24523753)
There have been legal cases where convincing evidence has been presented, it’s well-documented. Your presumption that people aren’t looking at these things with suspicion is obnoxious and indicates that you are forming your opinion based on poor information and just not considering one side’s arguments at all because they’re “establishment or deep state.”
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by coldtea on Saturday September 19, 2020 @06:18AM (#24526399)
The "one side arguments" are a dime a dozen, and they have a historical track record of lying, and a mission statement that is all about lying, misinformation, covert operations, and so on in the first place.

The "convincing evidence" has been of the kind "let's prosecute this guy involved in big politics selectively for stuff that everybody else has been doing on the side for decades, and pretend like he is some rare exception, and hope that people wont see that it doesn't really prove anything about our greater point". Or the kind "yeah, our guys totally have seen these people attacking that system, and they can't be anything but X, would we ever lie? Here's a report".

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by hamsterOnWheel on Monday September 21, 2020 @09:30AM (#24543129)
Yeah but we can look at the evidence and evaluate it for ourselves using our critical thinking. We can look at the evidence and evaluate for ourselves whether people are lying to us. I have done that, and you OBVIOUSLY have not. Do you get it? You are just expressing bias again and again.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by ffggvv on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:50AM (#24518291)
if he’s non credible then we also can’t trust the linked article saying he was offered a pardon
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by ed25519FUUU on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:24AM (#24517147)
What really bothers me is they spent two years investigating it and never once went to Assange and asked him? Why not interview the source? He’s not been hard to find.

It’s like a detective saying “I think he’s guilty, so there’s no need to get a statement.”

The lack of thoroughness here has always bothered me.

Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:30AM (#24517224)
Assange repeatedly said he didn't know who the source was. Contrariwise, he has also repeatedly said that he knows it's not Russia.
Re:Trump offered to pardon Assange if he provided source for... by whatshisface on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:32AM (#24517249)
Could you please provide sources for both?