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Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by echelon on Thursday September 17, 2020 @06:15AM (#24502870)
It seems absurd to me that buildings and things you can photograph in public are copyrightable/trademarkable.

You can't remove a building from your daily experience. Buildings have permanence. They seem cultural at a more fundamental level than movies or music.

How is this going to work with all the photogrammetry developments for games? I guess we're forbidden from the wholesale reuse of anything in public eye?

Has this been tested in court?

At some point the tech will mature to a point where it's more work to remove things than to scan them and leave then as is. Can we argue that these laws are an unjust burden?

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by PinguTS on Thursday September 17, 2020 @06:20AM (#24502892)
Unfortunately that is the case. There are certain buildings in the US, or the Eifel Tower in Paris at night, you are not allowed to reproduce without obtaining a license from the according copyright/trademark holder.

Here is a comprehensive list with their restrictions: https://helpx.adobe.com/stock/contributor/help/known-image-r...

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by kelnage on Thursday September 17, 2020 @06:58AM (#24503135)
The French and wider EU rules around this (often referred to as "freedom of panorama", discussed here [1]) are actually quite complex. From my time contributing to Wikipedia, I've seen a number of cases of photos on articles being removed due to it.

1.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_panorama

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by tephra on Thursday September 17, 2020 @06:31AM (#24502949)
If I recall correctly the issue with the Eiffel Tower at night is that they claim (and I assume courts have agreed unfortunately) that the lighting fixtures are copyrightable?
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by conjectures on Thursday September 17, 2020 @09:30AM (#24504353)
IP is one of those areas where programmers like to imagine the law is a function definition which provides clear answers. And aside from obvious stuff like selling bootleg copies of a movie - it doesn't.

Whether the pattern of light hitting a building is copyrightable is likely to be an under-explored area of case law. E.g. in the UK it would probably have to be a work of 'artistic craftsmanship' which is not defined in the statute. But the Eiffel tower is in France. So now you have two slightly differing sets of copyright law.

In the end many IP cases come down to bluffing because the actual class of question has never been settled by a judge.

On the other hand you have other cases like Banksy today loosing a case on trademarking one of his paintings. Which was dumb because he'd have got further with copyright infringement.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by lioeters on Thursday September 17, 2020 @10:36AM (#24505128)
> many IP cases come down to bluffing

That's quite insightful in understanding how the concept of intellectual property works in practice. I see, it's about making a claim to convince the other party of its legal ownership.

Whether the actual legality of the claim is proven in court or not, it may not matter if the claim is convincing enough, or too costly to contest.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by mywittyname on Thursday September 17, 2020 @10:24AM (#24504994)
I do feel like there are situations where you're creating artwork as a public good, and the artist should lose copyrights in exchange for the notoriety/impact/visibility associated with the project. Things like massive buildings, lighting the Eiffle tower, or creating Happy Birthday should fall under that.

It might sound unfair, but as an artist, creating a iconic piece of art that will be around for generations should really be worth more than money. Perhaps governments around the world could set up a fund to compensate/honor artists who achieve this.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by kjakm on Thursday September 17, 2020 @10:34AM (#24505105)
This sounds like you’re saying if you’re an artist, and you do a really good job, you shouldn’t get paid and should lose the rights to your work. That’s quite a strange concept.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by mywittyname on Thursday September 17, 2020 @06:14PM (#24510633)
A) I literally mentioned compensation in my post.

B) Lots of people find the current rules to be unfair. An enterprising fellow could build a massive structure in NYC and claim royalty rights over any photograph which may contain it.

You might be a-okay with that, but I take it to the extreme and think about what would happen if every building owner in NYC asserted copyrights over images of their building. Then every photo taken in the city would be subject to royalty/licensing requirements. YouTube's content scanners would automatically flag any video with shots of the city, etc.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by filleduchaos on Thursday September 17, 2020 @05:05PM (#24509961)
Exactly. The government should forcibly open source software projects and set up a fund to honour their creators if it decides those projects are a public good.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by gefh on Thursday September 17, 2020 @12:18PM (#24506537)
IIRC it's that the lights are a nightly "performance". Absurd, of course.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by mamon on Thursday September 17, 2020 @05:03PM (#24509943)
Why absurd? they are performance that just happen to be occurring frequently. If a Broadway musical is played every night, does it stop being a musical?
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by gowld on Thursday September 17, 2020 @05:18PM (#24510084)
The question is, Does a recording of it stop being private property if it's performed in public?
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by conjectures on Friday September 18, 2020 @09:56AM (#24516809)
Says the company running the tower...
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by pwned1 on Thursday September 17, 2020 @10:12AM (#24504840)
There is some French law on works of art and photos of them being prohibited. I once posted a picture of a World War I memorial at Verdun to wikipedia and it was removed for violating said French law.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by convery on Thursday September 17, 2020 @06:56AM (#24503111)
I mean, I can see a case for copyrighting such a setup as an art-piece. Although it's still silly if used for anything other than discouraging others from making money off it (e.g. selling photos).
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by feanaro on Thursday September 17, 2020 @07:15AM (#24503236)
> I mean, I can see a case for copyrighting such a setup as an art-piece.

I must admit I don't. I cannot bring myself to see the Eiffel tower being copyrighted at night as anything but absurd, even for selling photos.

Not everything needs to be profitable or have a price tag. I think we should agree upfront as a society that you shouldn't expect to make money from photos of the exterior of your public building.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by rozab on Thursday September 17, 2020 @09:06AM (#24504112)
I just don't understand how you can restrict photography of something that's in the public view. I'd expect that while most public sculptures etc are copyrighted, this restricts reproductions of the sculptures themselves, not images of them. The creative work here is the lighting system, and I don't feel an image of that actually copies that.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by KMag on Thursday September 17, 2020 @07:02AM (#24503164)
So if someone monkeys with the lighting fixtures at night, such that they weren't in their copyrighted configuration... I am clearly not a lawyer.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by vegetablepotpie on Thursday September 17, 2020 @11:48AM (#24506084)
If someone monkeyed with the lighting fixtures, they would be creating a derivative work of the fixtures and if they do it without a license from the copyright holder, they would be violating the copyright.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by nonick on Thursday September 17, 2020 @08:41AM (#24503878)
I guess it's OK if I take a picture during daytime and then alter it digitally to look as if it was taken at night.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by jrochkind1 on Thursday September 17, 2020 @08:46AM (#24503910)
if it's really an issue of copyright (I don't know this myself but just going with the theory) then it would probably depend on how closely your digital alterations match the actual lighting. If you did it to match/copy the copyrighted lighting, by looking at the actual lighting (in person with your laptop, from a picture, from memory), it would violate copyright just as much. If I re-type the words of a copyrighted text, it doesn't mean I haven't violated copyright.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by mywittyname on Thursday September 17, 2020 @10:28AM (#24505039)
> If I re-type the words of a copyrighted text, it doesn't mean I haven't violated copyright.

Copyrights are hard. Even if you look at public domain works like Sherlock Holmes, whose original stories are in the public domain, you can run into issues by giving him personality traits that are associated with derivative works that are still under copyright.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by oh_sigh on Thursday September 17, 2020 @04:21PM (#24509497)
You can even use pictures taken at night, just not during the light show that happens every hour or whatever
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by Igelau on Thursday September 17, 2020 @08:04AM (#24503564)
It was actually used for advertising a long time ago. Big old "CITROËN" on it. Really gaudy, but a trademark nonetheless, so it does put us into some sort of IP territory.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by Udik on Thursday September 17, 2020 @06:44AM (#24503017)
I might understand the point if what you were trying to sell was a picture of the tower- that is, if the image of tower itself were the reason people are paying for something.

If it's just part of a crowded the background, though, as in this case, it doesn't make sense. You can't put in the sky an object visible from everywhere and then ask people to pay (or even just ask permission) to use pictures that include it.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by papeda on Thursday September 17, 2020 @08:15AM (#24503646)
> You can't put in the sky an object visible from everywhere and then ask people to pay (or even just ask permission) to use pictures that include it.

This would be a great super-villain idea for a fun/dumb movie.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by heavenlyblue on Thursday September 17, 2020 @06:49AM (#24503067)
It becomes more complex if you are an Instagram influencer and share yourself with Eiffel tower on the background - do you need to share loyalties and how much of it?
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by Udik on Thursday September 17, 2020 @07:25AM (#24503293)
I wonder- if I need to pay royalties to share a picture including a building, can I sue the owners of the building for popping up in my pictures? If I am an instagram influencer, can I ask owners of buildings to pay me for the space they occupy in my pictures?
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by PinguTS on Thursday September 17, 2020 @07:54AM (#24503494)
The thing is, yes you can try to ask the owners. But what do you do, when they refuse? Because it is not in the owners interest, it is in yours interest.

The thing with the influencer is, that s/he does that for commercial purposes. The list published by Adobe give you a hint what is allowed and what not. I don't know if the list is a complete list and I didn't verified the details. But it gives you something.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by Udik on Thursday September 17, 2020 @08:31AM (#24503793)
> yes you can try to ask the owners. But what do you do, when they refuse?

The same thing they would do if you didn't want to pay them: you sue them. For abusive occupation of your pictures.

I am being paradoxical, but the point I want to make is that if you want to make profits or claim any rights on the image you project in a public space (admitted that it should even be allowed, since you didn't pay for said space) then you must also accept the liabilities deriving by the same. You should not be allowed to claim the rights and disown the liabilities.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by bryanrasmussen on Thursday September 17, 2020 @07:49AM (#24503453)
not unless they see you getting ready to take the picture and they jump in and build it in the background just as you snap your selfie.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by tweetle_beetle on Thursday September 17, 2020 @09:20AM (#24504259)
The comment you are replying to contains a link to a list which shows the different categories of restriction, including your example: Cityscape vs Exterior.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by afpx on Thursday September 17, 2020 @09:59AM (#24504685)
That's just a list of what Adobe restricts, not what is generally restricted. Each jurisdiction is different, but Adobe tries to appease all of them which unfortunately defaults to being restrictive.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by LanceH on Thursday September 17, 2020 @09:56AM (#24504648)
We need to get away from the idea that taking a picture of something is reproducing it.

Or that having a trademark in the background of something is implying an endorsement and necessitates payment.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by asalahli on Thursday September 17, 2020 @10:17AM (#24504895)
> We need to get away from the idea that taking a picture of something is reproducing it.

What about taking a picture of a copyrighted text?

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by LanceH on Thursday September 17, 2020 @11:25AM (#24505787)
If you take a picture of enough of the text, you've actually reproduced the work under copyright.

No amount of pictures of a building will reproduce it.

Also, if they want to claim ownership of the recording of something clearly visible in public, they should take responsibility and make payment for everyone that views it against their will. Yea, that latter half of that sounds ridiculous. The first half should as well.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by mantap on Thursday September 17, 2020 @10:32AM (#24505090)
The photo contains everything needed to reproduce the text. Whereas for a building a photo just captures one tiny perspective of it.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by Verdex on Thursday September 17, 2020 @07:55AM (#24503505)
My first reaction when people want to take their ball and go home OR charge unreasonable prices for the 'honor' of playing with their ball is to thank them for their time and then let them go / decline to pay or play with their ball.

So there's Paris Syndrome. Which is a massive sense of dissapointment when going on vacation to Paris. Mostly experienced by Japanese people because their culture really hypes up the Paris experience (or so I hear).

I cant help but think that it's worth it for some hobbyists to create a bunch of free 3d models of famous buildings that are copyrighted. Obviously not exactly the same (you need to avoid a copyright claim), however the difference should be an attempt to make the building feel grander and better.

Eiffel tower at night (mentioned in other places in this thread) is apparently also copyrighted. So the goal there would be to create an Eiffel tower at night that blows the experience of the real Eiffel tower out of the water.

The ultimate goal is to enhance Paris Syndrome as much as possible. When people get to the copyrighted place in real life, we want them to feel like it was overly hyped up and definitely not worth the trip. "Hey Tim how was your trip?" "You know, I just feel it was more impressive in the video game."

If people want to restrict their whatever from public consumption, then I'm more than happy to find a way to direct the public to something more worth their time.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by colejohnson66 on Thursday September 17, 2020 @05:26PM (#24510151)
> I cant help but think that it's worth it for some hobbyists to create a bunch of free 3d models of famous buildings that are copyrighted.

The Mona Lisa is available all over the internet, yet people still flock to see it in person practically every day. Even a perfect replica of it isn’t worth the millions the authentic is worth. I don’t know the name of it, but people tend to prefer the “real thing” even if they can “experience” it elsewhere.

My point is: even if a perfect 1:1 scale replica of the Eiffel Tower existed, people would still flock to see the “authentic” one to “appreciate” it.

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by op00to on Thursday September 17, 2020 @08:19PM (#24511570)
Even if the in person Mona Lisa experience is awful compared to looking at it on a high res screen.
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by wwright on Thursday September 17, 2020 @07:55AM (#24503506)
It seems like anything other than building a duplicate of the building would qualify as a transformative work (I mean… a video game with a building is just objectively not a real building)
Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by codyb on Thursday September 17, 2020 @10:08AM (#24504793)
Hmm, that logic would seem to suggest all you’d have to do to use someone’s likeness would be to photograph them walking to the grocery store.

It’s long been held that automakers could prevent their automobiles from being used without the makers consent. So games like Burnout have to crash cars that look similar to Ferraris and Lamborghinis.

This seems relatively similar I suppose?

Re:Why Is 1 World Trade Center Missing from Spider-Man? by whiddershins on Thursday September 17, 2020 @07:53AM (#24503487)
I was always told the interiors or building are copyrighted, but not the exterior.

So, it’s baffling there would be exceptions, for the reasons you listed and probably more.