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Re:New things in Android 11 by ghoomketu on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @02:39PM (#24411448)
Thanks to XDA devs I'm able to run my 10ish year old tab (galaxy n8000) with the very latest Android and almost all apps.

Yes some apps are a bit sluggish but most useful apps are good as running on any latest hardware. This is definitely one advantage of owning an Android device over other companies that deliberately slow down hardware to force people to upgrade hardware.

Re:New things in Android 11 by shajznnckfke on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @02:55PM (#24411651)
Having used Android and iOS devices, old and new, on average my experience is that the iOS devices perform well for years longer. Although installing custom versions on XDA can sometimes get more life out of abandoned hardware (I’m not sure if the jailbreak scene for iOS is similar, because I never felt the stock OS was missing anything).
Re:New things in Android 11 by izacus on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:16PM (#24411913)
> Having used Android and iOS devices, old and new, on average my experience is that the iOS devices perform well for years longer.

The main reason for this is hardware though - there's always plenty of conspiracy theories around that, but the biggest issues we've seen across Android ecosystem are due to flash.

Cheap eMMC flash with lowend controllers degrades pretty quickly (within 3-4 years) and you suddenly start seeing like 20-3000ms read times of a single settings file. Since a lot of apps just read those files on UI thread, this results in a lot of stuttering because developers expect < 16ms response times for those reads. Writes get even worse - it's not rare to see 500ms+ times for writes to configuration files of < 1KB in size, especially if there are multiple parallel writes queued (common in browsers when they cache webpages for example).

Apple and higher end Android devices tend to use better SSD quality flash which tends to last years longer than eMMC one and thus the devices don't slow down that much.

Re:New things in Android 11 by azinman2 on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:21PM (#24411965)
This is very interesting and the first time I’ve heard anyone discuss this. Do you have data / benchmarks you could point to? It would certainly address a lot of “planned obsolescence” criticisms by making it more plain the cause of the slowdown.
Re:New things in Android 11 by izacus on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:42AM (#24418389)
Unfortunately this mostly comes from my professional projects as Android developer and large-scale profiling data. It was confirmed by many devices I got to debug and "fix" when slowed down, but that's more anectodal.

I don't really have links to actual research on phones though - although eMMC degradation is a pretty researched topic itself.

Re:New things in Android 11 by GeekyBear on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:45PM (#24412249)
If Apple wanted to use software updates to force people to upgrade their hardware, the original iPhone SE wouldn't be starting it's sixth year of OS and security updates.

Also, it's more problematic to me that when faced with customers reporting the same "this phone randomly dies while showing that it has a good charge" issue on the Nexus 6p, Google never fixed the issue.

>If you're among those affected, your phone will randomly shut down and completely die, even though your battery indicator might have said you had plenty of juice left. It's not a simple system crash, because your phone will stay dead until you connect it to a charger.

https://android.gadgethacks.com/news/nexus-6p-battery-random...

Eventually they just marked the issue as won't fix.

https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/11/16/nexus-6p-early-shut...

Re:New things in Android 11 by microcolonel on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @02:53PM (#24411620)
> Android device over other companies that deliberately slow down hardware to force people to upgrade hardware.

I think there is a good faith way to interpret Apple's aging battery policy, of course, it would be a lot easier to interpret it that way if they handled repairs in a way that wasn't hostile to users.

BTW if you like your tablet a lot, that's cool; if you're just holding on to it because you don't want to get a new one, and you live in a big city, there's a good chance somebody is literally throwing away higher spec tablets within a couple km of you.

Re:New things in Android 11 by shajznnckfke on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @02:58PM (#24411684)
I think Apple was shady with the silent slowdown for old batteries, but these days they will replace an old iPhone battery for $50, which seems reasonable to me.
Re:New things in Android 11 by selectodude on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:02PM (#24411748)
I think it was poorly handled but I’m not sure I’d call it shady. I used to have an iPhone 5 that would shut off when I stepped outside in the winter because the battery was shot. Knowing the battery was the reason would have been nice.
Re:New things in Android 11 by alisonkisk on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:05PM (#24411789)
The reason apple lost a lawsuit is that they didn't tell people they had a bad battery. They quietly slowed the battery and then when people asked for help they said it was a bad phone that needed replacement. words in italics were the shady parts.
Re:New things in Android 11 by shajznnckfke on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:24PM (#24411999)
Yeah, I think the slowdown was the right engineering choice, but not telling the user was a UX failure.

You could imagine this happening because some engineering team was tasked with fixing crashes from reduced battery capacity, and some product people who would have been responsible with informing the user weren’t in the loop or dropped the ball. Alternatively, you could suspect those product people saw a good opportunity for planned obsolescence with plausible deniability and took it.

Either way, the eventual outcome (an outcry from customers and bad PR, followed by a more transparent software solution from Apple plus a subsidized repair program) seems fair.

Re:New things in Android 11 by GeekyBear on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:49PM (#24412298)
As opposed to Google losing their lawsuit with Nexus owners because they refused to fix the issue of the Nexus 6P shutting down unexpectedly in the same way?

>In the months and years following the launch, many Nexus 6P owners noticed their phones would bootloop or simply shut down without warning. The law firm Chimicles & Tikellis filed a class action lawsuit in 2017, and it looks like a resolution is on the horizon. Nexus 6P owners may be eligible for as much as $400 in restitution from Google and Huawei.

https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/06/07/google-and-huawei-a...

Re:New things in Android 11 by azinman2 on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:23PM (#24411987)
I think you’re making a lot of assumptions about malice intent versus trying to keep phones running.
Re:New things in Android 11 by oblio on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @04:38PM (#24413052)
They lost a lawsuit (settled for half a billion, same thing as losing). At what point do we agree it was malice?
Re:New things in Android 11 by azinman2 on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @05:39PM (#24413782)
According to the Reuters article: “Apple denied wrongdoing and settled the nationwide case to avoid the burdens and costs of litigation, court papers show.” [1]

It’s entirely possible the lack of clarity of what was happening violated consumer protection laws (I’m guessing, I don’t know what specifically the lawsuit was based on) without malice intended. The Apple way is to try and have design be silent and in the background. In this case it was a way to solve degrading batteries that would cause a phone to reboot, so slowing down to compensate is a slick way of preventing random reboots without involving the user. Since it doesn’t seem to be the case that this happened without battery degradation, I don’t think you can point to evidence that this was done to cause new phone sales. Am I mistaken?

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-iphones-settlement/...

Re:New things in Android 11 by oblio on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @06:10PM (#24414143)
> “Apple denied wrongdoing and settled the nationwide case to avoid the burdens and costs of litigation, court papers show.”

That's literally the text used by everyone that settles. Apple employs enough lawyers to populate a small country. Nobody with that kind of legal firepower gives up a lawsuit by settling for a million of $300 million and up to $500 million for no good reason.

They settled for the same reasons everyone settles:

1. Because they can afford to pay.

2. Because they know they're going to lose (and they would probably have to pay more and may even be punished in some other ways, on top of that).

It's obvious I can't prove this myself, but they didn't disclose it and only did so when their hand was forced by third parties investigating and after this settlement.

I mean, what would they have to do to be assumed malicious, in this case? If basically losing a class action lawsuit is not enough, what is? Tim Cook coming up on stage and admitting it?

It's not even their first example of thinly veiled for-profit malicious moves, such as the removal of the headphone jack (presented at the time as due to space reasons, reason immediately debunked by many people disassembling phones).

Re:New things in Android 11 by zozbot234 on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:07PM (#24411806)
Looks like the pmOS folks are working on mainline support for this device, so it might be able to run non-Android OS's in the future, as well. That's quite nice. Though I'm not sure how the latest mobile stack (phosh, and the like) would run on a 2GB RAM device. (I do know that 2GB is a bit tight for the usual gnome-shell environment, so there's that.)
Re:New things in Android 11 by reaperducer on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @02:59PM (#24411705)
slow down hardware to force people to upgrade hardware.

According to what I read here on HN, iOS devices have a longer usable lifespan than Android devices, and are officially supported much longer. Is that no longer the case?

Re:New things in Android 11 by alisonkisk on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:04PM (#24411765)
Parent is talking about running an unsupported OS on their Android device.
Re:New things in Android 11 by extremeMath on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:18PM (#24411933)
It's impossible to know since Apple users are extremely subjective.

It's better to just avoid them IMO. It's well documented the anti-consumer policies done by Apple. It's easy to see them poor money into massive advertising campaigns.

Consider the highly likely situation where someone bought a multi hundred dollar device, is disappointed, and need to justify it to themselves.

Re:New things in Android 11 by jccalhoun on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @04:10PM (#24412619)
That really depends on the hardware. If there isn't someone willing to maintain the project then your device won't get community updates. My last phone stopped getting manufacturer updates and progress on community made roms was slow so I went with an pixel 4a.
Re:New things in Android 11 by CydeWeys on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @02:52PM (#24411606)
I'm impressed that you're still managing to use 10 year old mobile hardware, but were it me, I'd spend at least $100 on some much more recent used hardware for the substantial performance boost.
Re:New things in Android 11 by lostlogin on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:01PM (#24411735)
There is an iPad 2 on the bench here that is used most days. It’s just fine. Whatever Apple has done to it seems to have helped it, particularly it’s battery life which is ok, but worse than when new.
Re:New things in Android 11 by alisonkisk on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:03PM (#24411755)
Those "slowed down" iOS devices are nowhere near as slow as your "sluggish" Android apps.
Re:New things in Android 11 by vetinari on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:10PM (#24411837)
In my chart, the record holder is iPhone 3G after iOS 4 update. I don't remember any Android device being so slow.
Re:New things in Android 11 by extremeMath on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:21PM (#24411969)
I wonder if you are used to animations hiding the loading time for you. I've never noticed a slow android outside 100$ crap, but I did notice how slow the iphone animations are