Sleep deprivation has a major effect on generalized anxiety[2]. The research I would like to see done, is to test whether the groups of students with the earliest starting schools saw larger drops in anxiety during the transition to full remote.

[1]https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.h... [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00057...

Not just that, but they’re also actively isolated from people who aren’t of similar age. Teenagers (who don’t happen to have an older sibling) go through the identity-crisis period of puberty entirely without role-models to, well, model. Other than the made-up, exaggerated ones they see in TV shows.

It’s no wonder the adopted behaviour of most teenagers feels instead like some sort of cargo-culting of adult behavior, rather than a gradual acquisition of actual maturity; and no wonder that it’s such a mental shock for many teenagers when they either enter college or the working world, and so get exposed to non-age-segregated collaborative settings for the first time.

The scary distant Real World turned out to be much easier to handle than the artificial one behind the walls of the schoolyard.

And to wit, by all objective measures, I ended up "handling" the Real World far better than any of the people who told me I wouldn't.

Maybe those who teach secondary school do so because they have difficulty handling the real world.

* I both work as a full time developer at a fortune 100 company and teach a few sections of a college level programming class each semester. So I don’t know what this says about me.

The typical live-in-a-dorm college experience is not so much a mental shock as is about putting off adult life for another four years, while you party.

And, while older (30+) students do exist, most of them don't live in dorms (And those that do, don't live with all the 18-20 year olds.) They will be, at best on the distant periphery of your peer group.

For most people, college does not solve this problem.

Most people, as it turns out, don't pursue technical degrees. Fewer than 10% of degrees are in STEM fields, with another ~10% being in a medicine-adjacent field.

The number of undegraduates who actually go on to do meaningful, novel, work in a lab (As opposed to just using a facility for a few hours, in order to pass a course) is even smaller than that.

I don't think that's for the reasons you outlined, but rather because adolescents are treated like children right up until they've turned 18 and finished high school.

They go from basically having the rights and responsibilities of a child, to those of an adult, rather than a gradual growth of those rights and responsibilities as they mature.

Also, is it not common for teenagers to have jobs any more? I got my first job when I was 15, and haven't been unemployed for longer than a month since (I'm in my late 20s now).

I think it all comes down to how students are seen by architects and the school system in general. I wonder if private schools are different.

It's not just american schools. All schools resemble prisons because all school systems around the world essentially adopted the american model which borrowed heavily from the prussian model.

All schools were compulsory indoctrination centers which buttressed the burgeoning nation-states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system

Modern education system, along with national media, government, etc are pillars of the nation-state. You can't have a nation-state without one nowadays.

Some/all of that have less to do with war and more to do with general disaster preparedness.

* Bomb shelters provide shelter from...bombs, yeah

* Windowless hallways provide shelter from tornadoes (no glass to break/become shrapnel)

* The heavy metal doors are firewalls that automatically close when the alarm goes off (most are hollow, won't do shit against assault weapons and predate even Columbine)

I suppose you could put windows between the classrooms and hallways, but those have their own associated problems to overcome: increased noise, more windows for students to break, safety in emergency situations, etc.

As for non-connected classrooms, where you need to walk outside to go between rooms, I've always thought that was to solve the same problems. Cheaper to build/renovate/modify/expand, easier to clean, less noise and fewer students running into each other.

It definitely felt like we were trapped in there and held against our will.

Now I am curious how schools in scandanavia are, given their famous prisons.

But that's the same part of me talking that wishes everyone was "forced" to work a retail or food service job for a year or two of their life. Probably impossible to actually do and enforce here, but would definitely make people overall be nicer and more considerate of others (and in the case of cleaning schools, more likely to clean up after themselves).

That's pretty frustrating to read. I was sleep deprived enough to sleep 15 hours a day on the weekends during high school, but actually going to bed before midnight still just resulted in staring at a dark ceiling for an hour.

Sleep hygiene is important, but at a certain point the circadian rhythm will put its foot down.

I also suspect that starting at 11 AM-1 PM and going until 4-5 PM, despite being less overall time, would produce vastly better academic outcomes in high school just due to the average teenage circadian rhythm and the resulting zombification of current students. The noneducational duties of high school could be handled by letting students show up earlier as needed with breakfast/lunch provided- the structured classes would just start later.

Maybe give the early arrivers a place to take a nap while we're at it.

I totally agree that if we focused on getting kids a reasonable amount of sleep and a healthy meal or two (and hydrated!), we’d likely be able to have much better outcomes.

I was taking prescribed sleeping pills because I couldn't fall asleep and had anxiety attacks late at night if I forced it. My school started at 6 am so I got up at 5 am. It got pretty bad at some point.

My dad and grandfather both have problem sleeping early but I am worse.

My SO was a teacher for a few years too. Despite Free and Reduced Lunch (FRL) being offered and encouraged, many kids' parents still could not be bothered to sign their kids up until late in the year. My SO kept food in the drawers of the desk for these kids. In addition, FRL did not cover the weekends, so many kids would come in on Monday having not eaten for that weekend. Though not common, it was again chronic with these kids.

Food scarcity in the US is still very much a 'thing', unfortunately.

I was and am a vegetarian, and maybe in wealthy districts they have better lunch options, but certainly not in mine. The fact that we largely tie school funding to property taxes is a huge problem. Regardless, let’s not pretend that school lunch, at least in the 90s, was actually healthy or good or even at a reasonable time for lunch.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6430a1.htm

Ref: https://www.lakeplacid.com/story/2016/02/olympic-prison-stor...

The endless bureaucracy and inefficiency of the school system frustrates all kinds of people.

I've never worked anywhere that I needed permission to use the bathroom.

https://theconversation.com/companies-target-toilet-breaks-t...

People that work at Walmart, Amazon, major grocery store chains, etc. (i.e. the major employers in America) are expected to man their post until it's time for their legally mandated scheduled bathroom break.

I suspect most people did have a job like that once in their lives. Then again, the last time I actually had a job like that I was actually still in high school, so that sort of policy didn't seem too strange to me at the time.

I guess some people in this industry had parents with enough money to avoid ever having to do a non-tech industry job? That would surprise me.

Some manual or skilled labour jobs would permit random breaks, I guess. But most people I know worked service industry. You don't get to just leave a cash register unattended because your bladder says to.

In my experience, the problem of needing to go to the bathroom while also needing to man a register was overcome by a quick "yo, could you cover me for a sec?" to a coworker.

https://nypost.com/2018/04/16/amazon-warehouse-workers-pee-i...

For example: If you are assaulted on work grounds, you have a right to self-defense which will be respected by the police, who will show up, as opposed to being punished the exact same as the person who committed the assault by a school administrator who has decided that Zero Tolerance/Fight-Free Schools means everyone who is involved in an altercation is automatically equally guilty.

> I think we need more classes specifically around teaching coping skills and learning how to interact with others.

This is a good thought, but it runs up against the fact it would involve teaching students to stand up to arbitrary and capricious authority, which is the strategy a number of teachers use to maintain class order. Being able to cope and interact with the world necessarily entails being able to push back against the worst abuses of many school systems, religious organizations, and, yes, to some extent work environments.

School is a prison you're forced to go to, are not paid and are typically not able to change schools like you would change jobs (you could potentially go to a private school, but that would depend on your parents having and willing to spend the $$$).

From your family/friend/neighborhood groups? Are you saying schools are where you go to meet people of similar interests? How can that be when schools are for everyone?

> Humans are social creatures

Humans are social creatures with in-group bias. Especially young kids. Schools are an unnatural system for humans. It's why kids universally don't like school. It's why you have to force, trick and brainwash them into liking school.

You might want to read up on the history of modern education system. They certainly weren't created to meet people with similar interests.

We have the option here in Ontario to keep our kids home and do home learning. But anything else the kids might do to get social exposure and even physical exertion is effectively closed.

Real home schooled kids usually have clubs and so on that they attend to hang out with other kids. That avenue is closed off.

My kids have to go back, just for their own mental health. As awful as the schools might be right now, they'll be better than being stuck at home playing Dragon Quest Builders II through for the third time.

Family? Mom and Dad are 2 people? Did you follow the footsteps of either? Probably not as you have unique interests and tastes. Neighborhood groups? I grew up in an area where I was the only child within 6 blocks? Am I out of luck? Schools _are_ the neighborhood group!!!

Edit: I am well-versed on both the history and current status of the education system. Both my parents and my spouse are full-time teachers.

Didn't say they did. Just said there is a reason why they universally don't like one thing - school.

> so that argument is irrelevant.

The argument isn't irrelevant because it goes against your assertion : "Humans are social creatures". Schools weren't created to be social environments for kids. They weren't created for socializing. Kids don't socialize in a group of 1000 kids. Schools, in fact, prevent socialization. Kids tend to socialize after school. Everything you've said so far is indoctrination nonsense. If you wanted kids to socialize, school is the last thing you'd build.

> Family? Mom and Dad are 2 people? Did you follow the footsteps of either?

So no siblings, uncles, aunts, grandparents, cousins, etc? Also, do you have to follow in their footsteps to get your social needs from family?

> I grew up in an area where I was the only child within 6 blocks? Am I out of luck?

I wonder what people like you did before schools were invented 150 years ago? Is there a reason why you can't go out 7 blocks?

So you only had a father and mother in your family and were bound to a rule that limited you to 6 blocks?

> Edit: I am well-versed on both the history and current status of the education system. Both my parents and my spouse are full-time teachers.

Now I understand why you think the way you do. Just because your parents are school teachers doesn't mean they or you know the history of the education system. Actually, the fact that your parents worked for the system incentivizes you to ignore the history of the modern school system. It's what happens when you rely on the system for a paycheck.

That’s demonstrably false. I have plenty of friends in university right now who love school and have great memories of it going all the way back to kindergarten.

I didn’t love high school but I enjoyed elementary school and I love university. I can also think of a few changes that would have made high school a much better experience. Now that I’m in university, I see how much better it could be!

I'm replying to the parent comment that stated online and virtual learning are superior to attending schools. It was implied the ONLY purpose of school is to ascertain knowledge when that's merely one (small) aspect.

"Schools, in fact, prevent socialization" is maybe one of the most divorced from reality statements I've ever read on HN.

Good luck on your future journey. Edit: Created 20 days ago explains everything

You say this in a country that has a fairly sizable immigrant population. And you don't have to live in the same house to be able to visit grandma on the other side of town.

> Created 20 days ago explains everything

Not here.

You can have an alternative alongside current standard school structure. You don't need to abolish the current schools but run the alternative and see which one performs better. I find it upsetting how people don't want to introduce alternatives or let man have a choice. Why do people don't want others to have a choice?

You can see this almost everywhere. Take apple walled garden threads. Just why?

Have diverse schools and structure. Some can have bigger breaks and start at noon. Some can be stretched out age wise and be more sociable place. Others can be like prison.

It's bizzare how similar schools are here (India). Some of it is forced by bureaucracy of the state and central government but a lot of it is self imposed while handing out creative and diversity points in their advertisement pamphlet.

But you're right - school is the place where most people form friendships, just like adults at work. It's harder to form friendships if you're not regularly put into social situations with others. I'm not sure what the best answer is institutionally, but I don't think the current state school system is the right one.

You will still be forced to interact with a bunch of immature kids after school except this time they will not even know they are still children and may be responsible for paying your salary, too.

That 'life can cause anxiety' doesn't mean it's bad.

Learning anything, exams, trying new things - it's all going to cause some degree of stress and anxiety.

School has constraints, but most of those constraints exist for self-learning anyhow - it takes a fair degree of composure or focus anyhow.

School is not 'living hell' for the vast majority of kids, I don't even know a single person who ever described it that way, though I'm sure it exists.

Structured learning has really no equivalent, especially for those who want to engage.

There are obvious reforms that could be made, not the least of which would be students approaches. Also - a lot more sports (daily), music, and longer term projects and probably some kind of structured free time.

It's not bad at all, it's just far from perfect.