News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by tingol on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:29PM (#24224954)
Oh come on, save your silly sarcasm for reddit. If someone doesn't want to use the App Store for their app they have NO OTHER OPTION.

Nobody cares about other markets, but you can't even host your own app! You are forced to give up 30% of your app revenue just to be in their walled garden. That is monopolistic in every possible way. And stop with the childish "ooh we're gonna end up like Android". Android devices are more than capable to hold their own against Apple's offerings nowadays and I haven't heard anyone complain about viruses and malware in like five years now.

And when I want to install an open source app I can do so on Android but Apple wants to tell me I can't after I spent $1k on their shiny phone. Amazing stuff, let's not lose it for something silly like user and developers having a fucking choice.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by nodamage on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:29PM (#24229779)
> Android devices are more than capable to hold their own against Apple's offerings nowadays and I haven't heard anyone complain about viruses and malware in like five years now.

Of course part of the reason for this is because Google put in a bunch of scary warnings when you try to install 3rd party apps, and Epic is so unhappy with these warnings making it difficult to distribute Fortnite outside of the Play Store that they decided to sue Google too.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by scarface74 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @08:12PM (#24230498)
It’s not like the Fortnite installer had any vulnerabilities....

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vu...

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by 52-6F-62 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:43PM (#24225188)
One of the reasons I bought an iPhone is because there are no vectors for arbitrary software installation.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by gameswithgo on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:00PM (#24225501)
Maybe one day an app you depend on will be made no longer allowed by apple's changing policies and then you will get it. shrug
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by simonh on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:06PM (#24225603)
Maybe one day the sky will fall on all our heads. But to your point, sure if an Android phone does the job better for me then I'd buy one. Right now they don't and one of the reasons is the different development and distribution model.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by 52-6F-62 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:25PM (#24225859)
I didn't think this current debate was caused by Apple changing policies, but to actually force Apple to change policies.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by jasonlotito on Thursday August 20, 2020 @03:49PM (#24227938)
At the very least, to play fair. They aren't even being honest when they say everyone gets the same deal on the App Store. We know this isn't true.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by 52-6F-62 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:38PM (#24228641)
A discussion about rates/App Store contracts seems like a different discussion—and one I'm all for.

But I personally would not like having the system I bought as a phone suddenly change in function allowing side-loaded software. (Similar to how I'm not happy that, in time, the PC-controlled Oculus hardware I've owned for several years will soon be useless without an FB account.)

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by lukeschlather on Thursday August 20, 2020 @09:16PM (#24230933)
> But I personally would not like having the system I bought as a phone suddenly change in function allowing side-loaded software.

This is exactly the problem. Apple can and does routinely change the functioning of their phones, and if you prefer the old functionality you have no recourse, because Apple contractually forbids you from installing software of your choosing.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by 52-6F-62 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @10:20PM (#24231314)
My phone hasn’t changed in function. I’m not sure what you’re getting at. They don’t contractually forbid me from anything I haven’t agreed with by buying this device. I bought an iPhone specifically because it is locked down and simple.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by stingraycharles on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:42PM (#24228691)
Then you wouldn’t install third-party App stores and just use only Apple’s. The choice would be yours. Right now we don’t have a choice, and that is a problem.

I fail to see why people think this is such a problem on this forum. It’s as people think all hell and doom breaks lose if, god forbid, developers are able to distribute apps themselves.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by dodobirdlord on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:16PM (#24229669)
> Right now we don’t have a choice, and that is a problem.

It may be a problem to you, but for other people it's a feature. Some people have more involved threat models than you are keeping in mind. They don't want their device to be able to run arbitrary code or unsigned code. Having this feature but having a toggle to turn it off defeats the purpose.

Maybe you disagree, but HN is shockingly flippant about dismissing this extremely legitimate security concern, and comments like this are a perfect example.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by Dayshine on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:32PM (#24229797)
Uh, isn't this was Enterprise registered iPhones are for? I was under the impression Apple are perfectly happy to charge you a ton to be able to have group policy style control over Apple devices. Which would obvious include locking that particular feature down.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by lukeschlather on Thursday August 20, 2020 @09:22PM (#24230964)
Well, and that's kind of an extension of this. Real security where you own the phone and the software for it is a premium feature only available to people who can pay <ask for quote.>
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by failuser on Thursday August 20, 2020 @07:38PM (#24230295)
No intentional user-facing arbitrary software installation vectors. Safari, WhatsApp or whatever you use will serve that role whether they were designed to or not.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by fauigerzigerk on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:49PM (#24226170)
The only vector would be you.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by tingol on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:59PM (#24226315)
What are the vectors on android?
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by X6S1x6Okd1st on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:21PM (#24228406)
Are you concerned about third parties gaining access to your iPhone and installing software you don't want?
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by dodobirdlord on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:10PM (#24229612)
Not OP, but of course. This is a realistic threat when traveling internationally and passing through customs. In most countries, if border security agents want to walk off with your phone for a while you can't refuse. Many organizations have a "devices that enter China stay in China" policy for exactly this reason.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by scarface74 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @08:13PM (#24230506)
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by stale2002 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:02PM (#24229547)
Ok, so then don't install other app stores on your phone.

Is that really so difficult for you? Why do you need to prevent me from installing other apps stores, when you can just not do that yourself.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by simonh on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:49PM (#24229422)
If Android can hold its own then there is no monopoly. If they don’t want to use the App Store, don’t get an iPhone. It’s that simple. A monopoly is when customers have no choice, but in smartphones with the ability to run apps, they clearly do. I like my choice and so do a lot of other people, why can’t you just leave us alone?
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by DaiPlusPlus on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:26PM (#24229748)
I don’t have a practical choice to use iOS: my extended family uses FaceTime and iMessage instead of WhatsApp and Skype for example - and my company develops for iOS-first as well.

If Apple made-good on Steve Jobs’ promise to make FaceTime an open standard and I could use it from Android devices and and PC then your argument would be stronger.

Apple put us in an unfortunate position where the strength of the iOS ecosystem means that many of us don’t have a choice in phone platform to buy into - which in turn opens us up to being exploited by their App Store practices.

Point is - I feel like I’m being dicked-over by Apple and the alternatives are just not feasible. Responses like “Just buy two phones lol” or “you still have a choice to use Android and not talk with your family at all” aren’t helpful or productive.

I’m sure the same arguments would have been made with Standard Oil when anti-trust law wasn’t on the books yet: arguably consumers and companies still had a choice to not use oil: they could use coal or natural-gas. People have a choice to drive a car or they could walk or ride a horse or take a train... hopefully you see why your argument is seen as being made in bad faith. We have a choice, yes - but it isn’t a free choice. We are being coerced into making a choice by our circumstances and Apple is taking an unreasonably unfair advantage of that.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by scarface74 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @08:15PM (#24230521)
Apple put us in an unfortunate position where the strength of the iOS ecosystem means that many of us don’t have a choice in phone platform to buy into - which in turn opens us up to being exploited by their App Store practices.

You don’t lay any of the blame on Google’s inability you convince people that their phones are worth buying when you can afford to do otherwise?

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by DaiPlusPlus on Thursday August 20, 2020 @08:59PM (#24230807)
I can't use Android. Google literally cannot have their Android phones be able to make FaceTime calls or send/receive iMessages because Apple won't let them.

How is any of that Google's fault? That's Apple entrenching their platform lock-in in a way that ultimately harms customers.

What you said can be applied to any other situation where a de-jure choice exists even when a de-facto choice does not:

> You don’t lay any of the blame on Netscape's inability to convince people that their Navigator browser is worth buying when you can afford to do otherwise?

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by scarface74 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @09:48PM (#24231130)
Google however has tried a half dozen times to create a messenger app sometimes more than one at a same time. Why couldn’t Google succeed? Incompetence? Apple allows third parties to have tight integration with the native dialer and contact apps.

What you said can be applied to any other situation where a de-jure choice exists even when a de-facto choice does not:

Google in fact was able to overtake IE on Windows so thoroughly that MS gave up and is now using Google’s engine.

Google Maps is quite popular on iOS devices.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by bryan_w on Friday August 21, 2020 @11:08AM (#24235518)
Apple app store policies prevents reading SMS messages which means it will never have the green bubble/blue bubble functionality of imessage
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by scarface74 on Friday August 21, 2020 @11:19AM (#24235602)
What could possible go wrong with letting third parties reading text messages?

There are dozens of other messaging clients on iPhones. Outside of the US, most people don’t even use iMessage. Now people are complaining that they can’t convince their friend circle to use alternate messaging apps.

This is again partially due to Google’s incompetence. They can’t even convince Android users to use their messaging apps.