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Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by supernova87a on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:19PM (#24224839)
I remember an essay a few years ago (it was the Ukrainian poisoning?) where the author essentially said that Russia's brand has basically been spoiled for outsiders. (political brand certainly, but maybe overall as a country).

As in, Russia is no longer a trustworthy seeming, interesting, attractive place to want to go visit or collaborate with or be associated with.

I mean, of course it depends on the level of detail you're dealing with and who exactly you're associating with. But for me, a general observer, Russia certainly seems to have gotten a history of doing and being the source of shady things.

Even aside from that, and this is probably skewed by the history books focusing on the oddest parts of history -- Russia always reads like an odd, outlier place in history. Or maybe it's the Russian literature. Always something strange, or depressing going on there.

What's up with that?

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by dunkelheit on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:27PM (#24226673)
As a Russian, I have definitely felt a change in attitude towards Russia fairly recently (since Crimea probably). Overall feelings switched more towards fear, distrust and annoyance that Russia is punching above its weight (wanting to be a Great Power while having a relatively puny economy). Recent case in point that comes to mind: one of the characters in the show Devs is Russian. Spoiler alert, he is definitely not a good guy.

A surprising consequence of this trend is that while annoying, it had definitely led me to appreciate my home country more (even if I don't support the current government). Probably a predictable manifestation of in-group/out-group dynamics.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by tim333 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:59PM (#24229514)
Russia seems fairly unique in it's disinformation campaigns trying to stir trouble pretty much everywhere around the world. I'm not quite sure what their problem is but it's not very endearing.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by johnmcauley on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:28PM (#24229225)
I agree and think that view of Russia is unfair to be honest. I’m Irish and the Irish have a relatively similar history (we had feudalism and colonialism and Russia had feudalism and communism - neither is democracy or “freedom”). Russia, and the Russian people, have done fantastic things in literature and science, and their history is amazing. I met a Russian girl recently and she called me her enemy. I was a little confused, but then she said I was British (I ain’t!) and the British are the enemy of Russia. She was very clear on this, it is how she viewed the world, or at least how she saw the dynamics of global powers. I had a great chat with her and we had great fun, I think, though, I was still her enemy at the end of the night. I think the same can be said of the “West’s” view of Russians, maybe not the enemy but certainly shady. It’s not helped by Putin and the poisonings but the ordinary Russian people are not really represented by him or by his actions.

As an aside, when I mentioned Putin, she called herself, mockingly, a daughter of Putin. Then she said, we had no playgrounds before he was in power, now we have playgrounds. It was a flippant remark, but a telling one all the same. The west neglected the Russians when the Soviet Union broke up. Bush/Regan celebrated a Cold War victory, which was a mistake. They should have embraced Russia and recognised the potential of the Russian people. I think the Russians have never got over being treated like this, which, obviously, has echos of the Germans in the 30s.

Sorry if I went on here, I think it’s an important subject.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by dunkelheit on Thursday August 20, 2020 @07:30PM (#24230248)
Thanks for the kind words. I think you are onto something - the sentiment you describe runs deep, especially among older people. It is of course generously fueled by state propaganda with "see how they treated us" being one of the favorite talking points. So distrust grows from both sides.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by shuntress on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:36PM (#24225059)
I think it probably seems like an outlier from a euro-centric (in a more literal sense, not in the pejorative sense) point-of-view because it is, in general, close enough to European cultures to be similar but distant enough to be distinct. Whereas other cultures/histories may be easier to bucket as "clearly distinct" and therefor not outliers.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by virtue3 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:52PM (#24226222)
"uncanny valley" of euro-centrism? haha.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by hakka-nyu-su on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:06PM (#24226394)
It depends on how you define "outsiders". Look at the 2019 poll table in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Russian_sentiment#Statist...

The Five Eyes countries, Germany, Poland, and Japan have overwhelmingly negative views (easy to explain for historical reasons).

But you see overwhelmingly positive views of Russia in China, India, Nigeria, Mexico and Indonesia; and ambivalent views elsewhere in Asia, Latin America, and the Mediterranean.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by Retric on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:18PM (#24226536)
I think lumping everyone together is the least biased group of outsiders.

“It found that Russia was the least popular G-8 country globally. ... Overall, the percentage of respondents with a positive view of Russia was only 31%.“

That supports the wider point quite well. Though Russia has very positive relations with a small number of countries. For example providing China with massive aid in living memory.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by boo_boo on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:23PM (#24225834)
Woah... it's almost as if Russia has been the target of western propaganda ever since the establishment of the Soviet Union.

What's up with that?

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by ibobev on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:31PM (#24225938)
You are wrong. The Russia has been a target of the western propaganda ever since the Great Schism[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by frank2 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:53PM (#24227113)
I was skeptical that Russia was even influenced much by the Eastern Orthodox Church before the Great Schism, but I looked it up and found that it was: before the Great Schism, the Rus tried to invade Byzantium, which increased trade and cultural exchanges, and an important Rus ruler, Vladimir, converted to Orthodox Christianity.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by thrwway34 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @08:41PM (#24230677)
Yeah, attacking all their neighbors, conspiring against rest of them, sending assassins across the globe... What's wrong with that, eh?
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by shalmanese on Friday August 21, 2020 @02:48AM (#24232663)
Stop trying to change the subject. This is a discussion about Russia, not the USA.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by thrwway34 on Friday August 21, 2020 @09:21AM (#24234652)
Whataboutism as usual?
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by nickthemagicman on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:35PM (#24225033)
Their history is part European and part Asian. They have history in both continents and cultures. They've always been familiar yet different.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by throwaway0a5e on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:55PM (#24227143)
I'm not sure how true this is. Rural Americans young enough to not remember the cold war are pretty well aware that they (arguably) have more in common with the Russian people than they do with any western European people even if the geopolitical goals of Russia are in conflict of those of the US.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by yostrovs on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:27PM (#24228493)
Please elaborate..
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by yostrovs on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:24PM (#24228455)
This comment would be considered bigoted by some or at least when applied to some other nations. But I agree with you. I came from there about when communism crashed and had high hopes, which have now been destroyed. Russians just don't have the same wishes that people in the west do. They just want a grand and powerful nation that is feared by others. They don't mind living rather poor as long as they have nukes and hypersonic missiles or some such. And that leads to a place that doesn't seem very nice, friendly, or attractive.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by supernova87a on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:32PM (#24229260)
This is especially interesting to me -- that the collective mentality of a people, first of all, is a real thing. And that it can really influence how the country itself evolves. And whether it can feed back on itself in bad ways and produce cycle of people and government and culture that lock a country into a bad situation...
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by Kinrany on Friday August 21, 2020 @01:47AM (#24232354)
> that the collective mentality of a people, first of all, is a real thing

I don't think that's true, or at least well-defined?

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by tim333 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:11PM (#24229619)
Well, the Russian leadership perhaps. I wouldn't mind betting that many ordinary Russian people would rather be a normal EU style democracy like France or Germany.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by yostrovs on Saturday August 22, 2020 @07:44AM (#24243473)
Many do, but surprisingly many more don't. Their main complaints are economic. If they would be a bit wealthier, they would be content. They are ok with a one party state, homophobia, corruption, etc. It's just they're very poor and it does kind of suck. So they're upset about wealth, but everything else is ok as far as they're concerned. Generalizing of course.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by supergirl on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:48PM (#24228753)
might have something to do with the constant anti-russia propaganda in the west
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by venatiodecorus on Thursday August 20, 2020 @03:07PM (#24227336)
this is the top comment? you people can't even hold your own standards
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by adamnemecek on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:27PM (#24224927)
I imagine the geographic environment has something to do with it.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by grisha on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:13PM (#24226476)
Like, lots of resources and consequently failure to move from extensive to intensive growth mindset?
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by adamnemecek on Thursday August 20, 2020 @03:29PM (#24227638)
No, just bleak, cold, depressing, vast spaces that make you feel meaningless.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by vogre on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:50PM (#24225326)
There always were a lot of propaganda involved since forever. Even now Russia is demonised in Western Media, mostly quite unfair.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by mhh__ on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:11PM (#24225678)
Given that Russia has used a nerve agent near where I live I'll give the media a pass on demonising Russia.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by mcsb4 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:30PM (#24225928)
I don't know what happened there but the official version leaves some serious doubts open. For example there was a long time talk of a "nurse" that found them. Only by accident it was revealed that this nurse was the head-nurse of the UK forces, i.e. in the rank of a general, well versed in chemical warfare. Also why was never the full tracks of the two Russians the victims revealed? There is CCTV on every corner in the UK. The story of the Russians was bogus but so is the official story. It wouldn't be the first time the gov stretches the truth. See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony

Edit: downvoting because it doesn't fit your world view? At least have the balls to reply.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by mhh__ on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:39PM (#24226054)
The official story would always be vague. This is spook territory not regular police. A Scotland Yard team went to interview Litvinenko's assassins (One of whom was being treated for radiation poisoning - fancy that!), and they were completely outgunned by the FSB.

Also, as to CCTV, it is extremely prevalent in London but not as omniscient in places like Salisbury.

Security services sit on information like this for years, possibly never to reach daylight i.e. it's at best 50/50 whether MI5's director(Hollis) in the 50s and 60s was a double agent for the GRU, but we will never know what is in the archives. It is undeniable, however, that the Russian's did it - a Russian nerve agent just happens to turn up in the middle of Salisbury!?

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by Nitrolo on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:48PM (#24226161)
Do you have more information or some good sources on the MI5 director? That seems like a fascinating read.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by mhh__ on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:32PM (#24226765)
Read Spycatcher by Peter Wright, incredibly interesting story of a working class MI5 scientific intelligence officer (engineer) turned literal spycatcher - largely spending his time chasing the work of naive upperclass communists of years gone by.

During Hollis's tenure, the KGB and GRU were just one step ahead every single move they made, to the point that they broke up a spy ring and the KGB didn't even phone home to Moscow that day. Other examples include bugged rooms suddenly being vacated or bugs in walls being filled with needle-like precision. They gradually worked up the tree until they realized there had to be a mole very high up in MI5 (or not at all, but it's not as neat).

British intelligence had been completely rocked by the Cambridge Five - communists had infiltrated pretty much everywhere in British intelligence until people like Peter Wright modernized the service largely by running around chasing leads from 40 years ago (in the 1970s) from people like Anthony Blunt who had given up fighting. The British establishment had to be dragged kicking and screaming towards the notion that an Englishman could be a communist despite his upbringing and public school training.

Can you imagine the fuss then, when it turns out that Hollis - who is already a very conservative (unambitious, won't step on toes etc.) leader of the service - is suspected of treachery? He had spent years in China in his youth, possibly having contact with known Russian assets. If he was really a spy, the smoking gun is that it turned out that when he was sent to interview Igor Gouzenko (A defector now residing in Canada), he apparently showed almost no interest in what Gouzenko had to say and was wearing a disguise. This may sound relatively innocuous but remember that a defector could quite possibly recognize you on from photographs of their agents.

The main case against this hypothesis relies on a few fairly not overly strong but nonetheless useful points: Oleg Gordievsky (Briefly Deputy Head of the KGB in London) clearly stated that his station chief stated that this rumour around Hollis must've been some British trick. This is potentially very strong evidence, however, it is the word of one man. Gordievsky is reliable, however, but more importantly he was KGB and Hollis was always supposed to be GRU (and he was definitely inactive long before Gordievsky would've been able to speak English let alone stationed in London). ELLI is a currently unknown cryptonym (alleged to be Hollis), it may apparently be Leo Long but that doesn't add up with the leaks from MI5.

MI5 (via Andrew) and MI6 (via Macintyre's book) - both had official archive access, extremely rare for MI6 - both claim its smoke without fire, Misguided conspiracy. It could well be, but this glosses over that there was a (according to Wright at least) an investigation that lasted the best part of a decade neither indicted nor exonerated him (https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104603) but on balance said it was more likely that not that he was not a spy. However, the proceedings of said investigation are not public as far as I can and the investigation-investigation thatcher speaks of in the speech linked to was run by a friend of Hollis. Chapman Pincher seems to allege that Hollis's family spoke openly of his work for the USSR but Pincher is now dead, and I don't really believe him at face value.

https://www.iwp.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/20150417_Repo... This document lays out pretty much everything known about Hollis, along with some (IIRC) elsewhere uncommon information linking Hollis's movements with that of the spy SONIA.

The real story here isn't really whether Hollis was a spy or not (he was incompetent as far as I can see), but that the Russian's are unbelievably good at espionage (but not unbeatable - see Operation PIMLICO).

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by HenryKissinger on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:44PM (#24226104)
> A Scotland Yard team went to interview Litvinenko's assassins (One of whom was being treated for radiation poisoning - fancy that!), and they were completely outgunned by the FSB.

Source?

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by mhh__ on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:54PM (#24226247)
From a BBC documentary into the investigation at the time. One of the members of the scotland yard team suggested they were poisoned by the russians (Laxatives in the water or similar not Po)
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by mcsb4 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:53PM (#24226227)
The fact that it was invented in Russia doesn't mean that this sample was Russian made. Every decent chemist can produce that stuff. We were also shown powerpoint slides of Saddams truck-mounted labs of WMD - they just didn't exist. The second mission was to "win hearts and minds". Result: 1,000,000 people dead. Women, old people, children and toddlers included. Just watch collateral damage again. Do it 100,000 times and you know what happened in Iraq. Plus a dash of abuse and torture of prisoners of war in the Abu Ghraib prison. There are plenty of things I doubt when I hear about them.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by zipwitch on Thursday August 20, 2020 @03:30PM (#24227656)
>Every decent chemist can produce that stuff.

After reading, "Novichok agents: a historical, current, and toxicological perspective"[1] it looks like the only places to have produced such agents are Russian chemical weapon labs and the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Central Analytical Database.

Maybe someone who works in the field can provide some more evidence either way?

[1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6039123/#R19

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by mcsb4 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:07PM (#24228224)
Iranians were the first to publish about the synthesis:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/rcm.7757

https://analyticalscience.wiley.com/do/10.1002/sepspec.1591c...

I am pretty sure that the Porton Down military research facility next to Salisbury is capable or producing it too - but that doesn't mean they produced the specific poison used to attack the Skipals.

The same for VX gas that was used to kill Kim Jong Un's brother in Malaysia. VX was indeed invented by the brits but I would seriously doubt that they killed Kim Jong-Nam.

Edit: this is just factual information. What kind of fscking loosers do downvote this? Go get a reality check.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by sterlind on Thursday August 20, 2020 @10:37PM (#24231411)
You're right - any well-equipped state could have synthesized the nerve agent used on the Skripals. But that's not the only evidence: two suspects were identified, who traveled from Russia and stayed at a local hotel. The nerve agent was found in their hotel room.

Of course, you could argue that British intelligence framed those Russians during the investigation, and poisoned the Skripals themselves as some sort of ruse for expelling diplomats. But if you deny the evidence and proceed down that path, you've made the decision not to alter your beliefs and no discussion will change your mind.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by tim333 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:20PM (#24229701)
>Also why was never the full tracks of the two Russians the victims revealed?

They are revealed here pretty well: https://web.archive.org/web/20180927051828/http://news.met.p...

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by stOneskull on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:43PM (#24228701)
seems to be a lot more downvoting recently. getting to where my eyes are drawn to those comments first, which is funny. blow a raspberry at them.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by leokennis on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:52PM (#24225365)
Can you give an example where Russia is portrayed unfairly?
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by galkk on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:09PM (#24225641)
How about this https://www.polygon.com/2019/10/30/20938550/call-of-duty-mod...

Tl;dr American army did carnage, the (one of most popular) game portraits that Russians did that

Or entire company of heroes 2 controversy

This is pure propaganda

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by cmrdporcupine on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:39PM (#24226051)
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. That's an awful story.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by bredren on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:02PM (#24225546)
I too am interested in examples. Typically, instead I see straw man “western governments do bad things too” to deflect.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by vogre on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:03PM (#24225560)
You may start with this article https://medium.com/@dominicbasulto/russophobia-and-the-dark-...

It has some great images, especially in the final part.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by thrwway34 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @08:53PM (#24230764)
I think I read similar piece when they tried to shuffle their shooting of MH-17 and point the finger on Ukraine. Turns out to be propaganda as well.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by gowld on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:30PM (#24225923)
That's negative portrayal of a violent corrupt dictatorship.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by vogre on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:36PM (#24226010)
It started long before Putin and long before communists.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by avmich on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:21PM (#24226589)
But things changed - Russia is much more known - while something remained the same - perception of the threat. Only now there are causes for that, so the article isn't accurate, portraying West as being "unnaturally" negative to Russia. West is negative for specific reasons, something which the article fails to address.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by boo_boo on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:34PM (#24225981)
Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper on Russians in 2017:

"...the Russians, who typically, almost genetically driven to co-opt, penetrate, gain favor..." [1]

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/james-clapper...

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by m0zg on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:12PM (#24229036)
Says the habitual liar James Clapper who verifiably lied under oath several times.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by sam_lowry_ on Friday August 21, 2020 @07:20AM (#24233921)
Was he punished for it?
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by m0zg on Friday August 21, 2020 @08:03AM (#24234157)
Of course not. None of these deep state fucks are ever punished for anything.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by knolax on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:32PM (#24226776)
Any action movie where the bad guys are stereotypical Russians? The way Russians and their culture are disparaged in media? I remember reading a WaPo article where some old lady was telling political canvassers to fuck off, and the entire time the article was fixating on her "Russian accent" and saying things like "this isn't russia we have democracy here". Really despicable racism.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by rasz on Thursday August 20, 2020 @03:42PM (#24227845)
As someone who was born and grew up under Russian occupation I can assure you everyone on the inside of Iron Curtain was aware how bad it was even back then.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by Glavnokoman on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:23PM (#24229162)
As someone speaking for everyone you sound stupid.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by analognoise on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:57PM (#24225458)
Why would they demonize a place that throws doctors out of windows, poisons political opponents, kills journalists, and has a horrible reputation for LGBT rights?

Weird, right? /s

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by vogre on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:11PM (#24225673)
Well Saudi Arabia is hundred times worse than all we have in Russia on every point you mentioned. But guess who get all the sanctions?
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by nate_meurer on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:37PM (#24226024)
Most of the current sanctions against Russia were a direct response to Russia's paramilitary invasion of a peaceful neighbor and theft of a large portion of their country.

If Saudi Arabia were to commit a comparable offense, I assure you they'd face a comparable response, or worse (remember what happened to Saddam Hussein).

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by boo_boo on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:44PM (#24226103)
You don't consider the situation in Yemen comparable?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabian-led_intervention...

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by nate_meurer on Thursday August 20, 2020 @03:32PM (#24227676)
What Saudi Arabia has done in Yemen is a war crime in my opinion. But it's also part of an ongoing proxy war against Iran, whose government has made it clear that the goal is to destabilize the Saudi regime. So no, not comparable to Russia's ongoing attempt to reassemble its lost Soviet empire by destabilizing and invading neighbors who pose no threat to it.

Go read that wikipedia article you posted. It links to a good explanation of the Iran-Arab proxy conflict.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by vkou on Thursday August 20, 2020 @03:50PM (#24227952)
Crimea is also part of an ongoing proxy conflict between NATO and Russia, where NATO seeks to encircle the latter. The wars with Ukraine and Georgia were about maintaining buffer states (And to serve as a warning to the rest), rather than reassembling an empire.

Or at least, the facts can line up with this interpretation.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by nate_meurer on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:10PM (#24228256)
Maintaining a buffer is exactly why the Soviets annexed half of Europe after WWII, and spent the next half century brutally oppressing the populations therein. That's the whole point. But regardless, this is such a silly semantic quibble. Who cares why Russia wants to reassemble its empire? The international community is understandably alarmed by Russia's actions, and naturally care little about Putin's justifications.

> Crimea is also part of an ongoing proxy conflict between NATO and Russia, where NATO seeks to encircle the latter.

Fuck, this again? Go ahead and connect the dots for me. Explain what specific actions on the part of NATO, or the countries that have requested membership in NATO, were responsible for Russia suddenly invading a neighbor country that posed no threat to it, forcibly annexing a large part of it, and maintaining a ruinous and deadly guerilla conflict in much of the rest.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by vkou on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:18PM (#24228377)
Let me reverse that question.

What specific actions of NATO lead you to think that its ambitions for Russia in the 2010s differ from its ambitions for the USSR in the 1970s and 1980s?

What has changed since the Cold War, in those ambitions? What specific actions has NATO taken that make it clear that those ambitions have changed? What reassurance is Russia expected to see that encirclement, containment, and isolation is not the goal of the West? I can't see a single bloody one.

We're going down the exact same road again, the only difference is that the front line is now 300 miles further east. Which is very comforting for Czechs, and Hungarians but unfortunately, far less so for Ukranians.

(Oh, and to answer your question, I think 'US Army bases in Poland' is a pretty good, solid example of why Russia feels threatened. Had the War in Donbas not happened, as likely as not, we'd have been seeing US Army bases in Crimea today. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, though. I advise that the best way to win for the buffer states is to either adopt neutrality, or, barring that, to not antagonize the side that's being backed into a corner.)

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by nate_meurer on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:18PM (#24229110)
You're asking for proof of a negative? Proof that NATO isn't nefariously plotting Russia's demise? And "encirclement"? Really? The borders with NATO countries comprise like five percent of Russia's total border length. If NATO is trying to encircle Russia, they're doing a really shitty job.

Honestly, I'm not interested in engaging with this prove-a-negative nonsense. In my humble opinion, invading a neighbor and annexing part of it can't be justified short of a clear, present, and profound security risk. NATO, a voluntary, chronically underfunded defensive organization almost completely subservient to the political gyrations of the US, the leader of which is now actively trying to destroy it, is not that risk, and I don't believe that anybody honestly thinks it is.

Putin will gladly use any action on the part of European countries to justify more invasions. Like the way Sergey Lavrov threatened "military technical measures" in the Baltic region if Sweden joined NATO. Remember that? The Baltic states are lined up like dominos, possibly Belarus as well, where I've heard rumors that Russia is already sending troops. As Trump says when he has no clue what he's talking about, "We'll see what happens".

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by etc-hosts on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:10PM (#24229615)
Soviet Union and Russia have always been incredibly paranoid about the vulnerability of the populated interior.

I believe NATO has the capability to bomb Moscow from Latvia in minutes.

I don't think Russia rates its vulnerability by border ratio vs total NATO aligned country border ratio. They look at how fast NATO could wreck Moscow.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by drran on Friday August 21, 2020 @07:01AM (#24233831)
Nope.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by vogre on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:46PM (#24226143)
Saudis chopped WSJ journalist Hashoggi into parts! literally!

Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-sponsored_terrorism#Saud...

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by nate_meurer on Thursday August 20, 2020 @03:07PM (#24227342)
Yes, and I believe sanctions would be an appropriate response for that atrocity, as they should be for any state-sponsored murders of journalists or opposition politicians.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by raverbashing on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:11PM (#24226456)
Good thing SA did not invade Yemen, had nothing to do with Khashoggi "suffering a paper cut" and absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 neither
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by nate_meurer on Thursday August 20, 2020 @03:17PM (#24227473)
Yes, thanks, we know. The Saudi Arabian regime is shamelessly and violently fascist, and corrupt at every level. What the fuck does that have to do with Russia's invasion of Ukraine and theft of the Crimean peninsula, and the commensurate response by the international community?
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by boo_boo on Thursday August 20, 2020 @03:36PM (#24227749)
You stated:

> If Saudi Arabia were to commit a comparable offense, I assure you they'd face a comparable response

Offenses were cited to you. Where is the "commensurate response by the international community" to these offenses?

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by nate_meurer on Thursday August 20, 2020 @03:52PM (#24227986)
Read my comment again. I said that if SA were to do what Russia did -- invade a peaceful neighbor with no provocation and steal a portion of their country -- then I'm confident that sanctions would be levied against them. Pretty simple proposition, really.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by raverbashing on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:07PM (#24228220)
So you don't think the Yemen situation is worse than Crimea (which is a complicated issue in itself?). Or even SA financing the expansion of Wahhabism?

I think SA gets too little sanctions for what they do. Too little.

And by the way, I'm totally in favour of Russia sanctions. I'm not questioning any of that.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by thrwway34 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @08:56PM (#24230781)
What's complicated about Crimea?
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by vogre on Friday August 21, 2020 @02:41AM (#24232631)
Crimea is historically(last 250 years) Russian territory with Russian population which always leaned towards Russia.

During reclaim there were not any resistance from the local population. It says a lot.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by thrwway34 on Friday August 21, 2020 @09:20AM (#24234635)
Crimea was Ukrainian for last 20 years and before that it was Soviet for 70 years.

And you're wrong about resistance as well.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by nate_meurer on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:23PM (#24228444)
I agree. SA is a hugely destructive influence across the Middle East in lot of ways. For whatever reason, the strategic interests of SA and the US align just enough to keep them out of trouble. But if SA were to emulate Putin's foreign policy and annex, say, Kuwait, I promise their luck would run out fast. Funny, I seems to remember something sort of similar happening not too long ago...
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by avmich on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:24PM (#24226633)
You're missing the point.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by qzw on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:41PM (#24226063)
Aren’t most of the sanctions related to the annexation of Crimea? Also, SA is an ally who allows a significant US military presence on its soil, in an area of strategic importance to global energy supply. Russia on the other hand still maintains an adversarial posture toward much of the Western world.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by baybal2 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:51PM (#24226197)
Yes, you can spawn freakazoo outfits who ram airplanes into skyscrapers, for as long as you have a US airbase.

I had a shock beyond believe seeing Bush pretty much saying "let Saudis go!," and jumping out of his skin trying to shield them, and then starting a war on Saddam — SA's biggest enemy at the time.

But lets keep the conversation on topic.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by hn_check on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:30PM (#24225927)
Saudi Arabia exports oil but apart from that is generally just completely irrelevant. It is a terrible, despotic regressive craphole, but it doesn't have context enough in the world to come up a lot.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by hn_check on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:39PM (#24228661)
To the dead reply to me - lol. Saudi Arabia's geopolitical power is entirely predicated on the US acting in its interest, which was a premise that only held when the US was dependent on oil imports.

Saudi Arabia's economy is non-existent and hyper-unproductive, and its military is farcical. While it has some modern hardware, it has F-15s being staffed by profoundly incompetent princlings (just another example of the broken nature of the society, where it is the absolute inverse of a meritocracy. Incompetence and nepotism from top to bottom).

Saudi Arabia is irrelevant, unless maybe you're some Indian guy looking for a job where you live in servitude as a slave in some foreign nation. When they do deplorable things it just doesn't get a lot of notice because it's entirely expected. They got to prance around with an imagined importance when they could squeeze the oil spigot, but now...eh. Those days are long gone.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by KMag on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:52PM (#24231802)
Back in 2004, I did some consulting work for a manufacturer of Identification Friend-Foe (IFF) equipment. One of my colleagues had to go in and replace an IFF transponder on a Saudi military boat after its commander (a minor member of the royal family) decided, during the First Gulf War, to take it out of port despite knowing the IFF transponder was not working. A British RAF Tornado mistook the boat for Iraqi after it failed to auto-respond the pilot's IFF interrogation message. One HARM anti-radiation missile later, and anything near or behind the boat's radar dish looked like Swiss chesese, including the IFF transponder and pretty much everything in the mess hall. My colleague said that the mess hall looked like someone walked in with a shotgun and a ton of shells and just started blasting in all directions.

That commander had no business being in charge of a lemonade stand, much less a military vessel, and I'm told such nepotism is rampant in the Saudi military. People who have been isolated from all consequences of their actions for their whole lives tend to make terrible leaders.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by WinstonSmith84 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:46PM (#24226138)
Really? From which point of view? Arguably true for the Yemenites, but the fact is, no one really care about the Yemenites (sorry if there are Yemenites reading that but it's a fact). Saudi Arabia doesn't try to interfere with any western European country, neither militarily nor in their politics...
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by baybal2 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:59PM (#24226314)
> Saudi Arabia doesn't try to interfere with any western European country, neither militarily nor in their politics...

O_O you are so wrong, it is one the biggest foreign lobbying power in America, and Europe.

But this is not the point of this conversation.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by petersellers on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:03PM (#24225555)
Not to mention actively trying to meddle with US elections.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by DFHippie on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:13PM (#24225691)
And Brexit, and French and German elections, and shoot down Dutch airlines, etc.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by vogre on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:19PM (#24225780)
You see, when anything go wrong in the world it's Russia's fault:) Especially if someone loses some elections - blame Russia 100% of the time.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by king_magic on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:57PM (#24226284)
Except... those things explicitly are Russia's fault. You can keep pretending Russia is a benevolent member of the international community all you want, but that simply does not make it true.
Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by ben_w on Thursday August 20, 2020 @02:35PM (#24226815)
I’ve previously heard that claim about Brexit, but not about the other three.

Even then, despite being so Remain-y I moved to Berlin, I don’t see how Russia made enough of a difference to count as successfully interfering compared to all the decisions taken by Cameron up to the day of the referendum itself.

Re:The Suspected Poisoning of Alexey Navalny, Putin’s Most P... by mcsb4 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:35PM (#24225999)
Well, the US is since WWII meddling with elections in other countries. And not only that but actively toppling foreign governments. The few millions some Russians may have spent on ads are a drop in the sea compared to the billions and billions that PACs and SuperPACs have spent.